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Topic: TriMetric 2025 reads 88% Battery State of Charge (Read 693 times) previous topic - next topic

TriMetric 2025 reads 88% Battery State of Charge

Trimetric 2025 reads State of Charge (SOC) -  88%, while the ARC 50 on the Magnum 2820 reads - Full Charge.  For the last 8 months since we installed the Trimetric the SOC has returned to 100% either via generator or pedestal.  The last few days the SOC has not risen above 90 and appears to be decreasing daily.  Looks like the wet cell batteries are finally going to be replaced with AGMs.  The wet cell batteries are buried and almost impossible to maintain.  Have room for 3 but will put in 2.

Found, as usual with the help of this forum, replacement batteries from O'Riley's.  Mfg'd. by East Penn with the same specs and warranty as MK/Deka.  $450.00/battery and they will help to install.

Will have to change the charging profile of the Magnum 2820.  Will now have three AGMs including the Start Battery.  Trying to move towards some solar stuff maybe later this year.

Scott & Carol Seibert
2001 42' double slide U320 - Sold
Previous - 2002 36' U320

Re: TriMetric 2025 reads 88% Battery State of Charge

Reply #1 –
That's a talent that I didn't really appreciate 'til now; the ability to spot a bank going bad before it fails in the middle of nowhere! :)

Craig
1993 U225 36' Unihome GV with PACBRAKE exhaust retarder, Banks Stinger and Solar Panels.
Toad: 1999 Jeep Wrangler 2-door soft-top.

"No one has ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke."

Re: TriMetric 2025 reads 88% Battery State of Charge

Reply #2 –
Check the programming of your 2025. Maybe you don't have it resetting to full charge after enough time on float.

Tom Lang K6PG (originally  KC6UEC)
and Diane Lang
2003 38 U295 build 6209
2016 Jeep Grand Cherokee Summit Ecodiesel
still have tow-ready 2006 Acura MDX 
Temple City, California
Motorcade 16681 California Chapter President
SKP 16663 member of SKP Park of the Sierra, Coarsegold California
FMCA F071251
Retired electrical and electronic engineer

Re: TriMetric 2025 reads 88% Battery State of Charge

Reply #3 –
Tom - Re-read the install and user manual and reset %.  Will call Trimetric tomorrow and ask some questions.  Thank you.
Scott & Carol Seibert
2001 42' double slide U320 - Sold
Previous - 2002 36' U320

Re: TriMetric 2025 reads 88% Battery State of Charge

Reply #4 –
It is complicated. I have a masters degree in electrical engineering from UCLA, and it took a few rereads for me to figure it out.

The trimetric carries an ever increasing error due to guessed at inefficiency in the recharge process. After a while this adds up to a reading of 88% full even after plenty of time on the charger to be fully charged. The default setting is to reset to full after a time on the main charger or engine alternator. But this feature can be turned off.
Tom Lang K6PG (originally  KC6UEC)
and Diane Lang
2003 38 U295 build 6209
2016 Jeep Grand Cherokee Summit Ecodiesel
still have tow-ready 2006 Acura MDX 
Temple City, California
Motorcade 16681 California Chapter President
SKP 16663 member of SKP Park of the Sierra, Coarsegold California
FMCA F071251
Retired electrical and electronic engineer

Re: TriMetric 2025 reads 88% Battery State of Charge

Reply #5 –
Tom - I must admit that I read the manual a few times and it still didn't make sense, but did see that I could reset the SOC percentage, so I did.  I do not have a degree in electrical engineering.  Just BS ElED/SPED and spent 30 years in the steel business - the last 10 years in the world of Quality.  I can digest most technical stuff but electrical is still magic to me.
Scott & Carol Seibert
2001 42' double slide U320 - Sold
Previous - 2002 36' U320

Re: TriMetric 2025 reads 88% Battery State of Charge

Reply #6 –
I can see why they have a "fudge factor" for the "inefficiency" but I would have expected a way to simply change the fudge factor to agree more with real life. Doesn't resetting the % simply mean that the errors will start to accumulate all over again?

Wouldn't this pretty much eliminate the usefulness of the % charged feature over time?

Craig
1993 U225 36' Unihome GV with PACBRAKE exhaust retarder, Banks Stinger and Solar Panels.
Toad: 1999 Jeep Wrangler 2-door soft-top.

"No one has ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke."

Re: TriMetric 2025 reads 88% Battery State of Charge

Reply #7 –
Craig - I think you are corrct in terms of the value of the SOC readings over a period of time.  I think the SOC reading is relative to the perceived available capacity.  I am not sure that there is a fudge factor or what it is.  the SOC is based on the initial TriMetric reading when installed and their SOC # is created after the charger cycles a number of times - I think.

After talking to Bogart Eng.  Mfg. of the TriMetric, the Tech suggests that there may be a short between the shunt on the neg. post of the house battery to the readout meter or a myriad of other possibilities.  He also suggested that he could not diagnose the problem long distance.  He spent about 30 mins on the phone with me and further suggested I contact Magnum - the inverter/converter mfg.  He did agree that the batteries charging fully to 88% as indicated on the TriMetric readout, might indicate battery diminished capacity but felt that that scenerio was somewhat unlikely - but possible.

Contacted Magnum and spoke with a Tech Rep. and he basically confirmed that the Magnum was recharging to Full Charge based on available battery capacity.  Thus the Magnum would show Full Charge even though the batteries are only capable of 88% of their Full Charge as shown on the Trimetric - what ever that is/was.  I do not know the current age of the house batteries.  He further stated that the only way to determine exactly what the state of charge is to test each battery which means that I would have to empty and pull the Joey beds out of the basement, remove the cover for the battery compartment and pull the batteries out of the compartment to have enough vertical clearance to test the batteries.

I still see a disconnect between what Bogart Eng. and Magnum Energy says but will move forward.

Sooooo - I have two new AGMs being shipped to Kalispell where I will remove and replace the 8d wet cells.  Of course I willl have to reset the ARC 50 from wet cell charging parameters to AGM.

Scott & Carol Seibert
2001 42' double slide U320 - Sold
Previous - 2002 36' U320

Re: TriMetric 2025 reads 88% Battery State of Charge

Reply #8 –
Quote from: wa_desert_rat –
I can see why they have a "fudge factor" for the "inefficiency" but I would have expected a way to simply change the fudge factor to agree more with real life. Doesn't resetting the % simply mean that the errors will start to accumulate all over again?

Wouldn't this pretty much eliminate the usefulness of the % charged feature over time?

Craig


Yes.

You can change the efficiency factor, and hopefully get better results through trial and error.

I believe this device does as good a job as possible. It works best when the charging device, whether ac, engine, solar, or something else is capable of reaching full charge. After a while there, it resets to 100%. Partial charge cycles are difficult to gauge. And besides, you should give the batteries a full charge at least once a week. The tms even NASA reminder to do so.

Last week, after a week in storage using solar alone, my tms soc went from 29% to just under 100% ( based on 50% of actual battery capacity ). Upon starting the engine, it reset to 100%.
Tom Lang K6PG (originally  KC6UEC)
and Diane Lang
2003 38 U295 build 6209
2016 Jeep Grand Cherokee Summit Ecodiesel
still have tow-ready 2006 Acura MDX 
Temple City, California
Motorcade 16681 California Chapter President
SKP 16663 member of SKP Park of the Sierra, Coarsegold California
FMCA F071251
Retired electrical and electronic engineer

Re: TriMetric 2025 reads 88% Battery State of Charge

Reply #9 –
I've had my 2025 for over 7 years and I have never needed to reset the state of charge - and my batteries are not all that great.  My recollection was that as soon as the charge rate (in amps) drops below (I think) 5 amps, the red charge lamp goes steady ON (it blinks when charging) and the state of charge resets itself to 100%.  I believe that number (the 5 amps) is programmable.  I think the idea is when the charge rate drops down to a certain level you have to at some point say "OK that's enough" and say it's fully charged.
John Fitzgerald
1991 U300 (SAI) Side Aisle Island Bed 40'
Detroit 6V92 with Allison Retarder
Meridian (Boise), Idaho

Re: TriMetric 2025 reads 88% Battery State of Charge

Reply #10 –
Quote from: JohnFitz –
I've had my 2025 for over 7 years and I have never needed to reset the state of charge - and my batteries are not all that great.  My recollection was that as soon as the charge rate (in amps) drops below (I think) 5 amps, the red charge lamp goes steady ON (it blinks when charging) and the state of charge resets itself to 100%.  I believe that number (the 5 amps) is programmable.  I think the idea is when the charge rate drops down to a certain level you have to at some point say "OK that's enough" and say it's fully charged.

Correct.

Just don't torn off the auto reset feature.

It can be programmed to reset on voltage alone, in my case 14.4 volts, or voltage AND current below a programmable threshold, in my case 22A.

If it never sees those conditions, the error will eventually build. I find the default charge efficiency of 94% is too low. But my batteries are new.
Tom Lang K6PG (originally  KC6UEC)
and Diane Lang
2003 38 U295 build 6209
2016 Jeep Grand Cherokee Summit Ecodiesel
still have tow-ready 2006 Acura MDX 
Temple City, California
Motorcade 16681 California Chapter President
SKP 16663 member of SKP Park of the Sierra, Coarsegold California
FMCA F071251
Retired electrical and electronic engineer

Re: TriMetric 2025 reads 88% Battery State of Charge

Reply #11 –
John & Tom - I understand in general terms what you guys are saying but do not know how to adjust program paremeters on our 2025.  Can you point me in the proper direction?   
Scott & Carol Seibert
2001 42' double slide U320 - Sold
Previous - 2002 36' U320

Re: TriMetric 2025 reads 88% Battery State of Charge

Reply #12 –
II'll get back to you after I check the manual. It's in there ... clear as mud.

Mine is a 2020, but I think the programming is equally unintuitive.
Tom Lang K6PG (originally  KC6UEC)
and Diane Lang
2003 38 U295 build 6209
2016 Jeep Grand Cherokee Summit Ecodiesel
still have tow-ready 2006 Acura MDX 
Temple City, California
Motorcade 16681 California Chapter President
SKP 16663 member of SKP Park of the Sierra, Coarsegold California
FMCA F071251
Retired electrical and electronic engineer

Re: TriMetric 2025 reads 88% Battery State of Charge

Reply #13 –
So I too have a 2020 not a 2025.  But Tom is right in that it works the same way just a little different programming.
So the 2025 manual is here: http://www.bogartengineering.com/sites/default/files/docs/TM-2025%20Users%20Instructions9-11-12.pdf
On Table 2, Program Mode Numbers P1 and P2 are the values to set to establish reset to 100% SOC.  Above the table is a list of instructions (1) thru (4) on how to change them.
P1 is factory set at 28.6 volts which your 12 volt system should never see.  This value is so high it will never reset to 100% SOC.  Maybe this was never changed when your 2025 was initially installed.  I have mine set to 13.4 volts (about the nominal float voltage) and the amps (your P2) set to 5.

I would check the others as well - especially P3 for battery bank size (otherwise your percent SOC will be off proportionally).

Does this make sense, Carol & Scott?
John Fitzgerald
1991 U300 (SAI) Side Aisle Island Bed 40'
Detroit 6V92 with Allison Retarder
Meridian (Boise), Idaho

Re: TriMetric 2025 reads 88% Battery State of Charge

Reply #14 –
Thanks John - I have read the user guide and install manual a number of times and it makes sense to the point that when I install the new AGMs I will reread the instructions and try to take them step by step and contact Bogart to assist in programming P1,P2 & P3 and maybe you too?

The instructions are as clear as mud.

Scott & Carol Seibert
2001 42' double slide U320 - Sold
Previous - 2002 36' U320

Re: TriMetric 2025 reads 88% Battery State of Charge

Reply #15 –
Scott,
I'm certain an engineer wrote the instructions.  I know because I am one.  As a representative of my profession, I apologize for the poor instructions.  Bogart appears to be a very small company with good engineering and probably no technical publication writers.
I'd be glad to do phone support.  I'm sending you a PM.
John Fitzgerald
1991 U300 (SAI) Side Aisle Island Bed 40'
Detroit 6V92 with Allison Retarder
Meridian (Boise), Idaho

Re: TriMetric 2025 reads 88% Battery State of Charge

Reply #16 –
Thanks for that post, John. I'm headed over to the coach in a few minutes and I'll check my 2025. I'm willing to bet that it's not set properly. These are such useful devices in such a small package. I have a plug-in AC monitor that does nothing more than check polarity and indicate line voltage and it's actually bigger (but looks much the same).

Bogart did a wonderful job in the design. I can forgive them their faults in documentation. Nice to have an engineer around to interpret their notes. :)

Craig
1993 U225 36' Unihome GV with PACBRAKE exhaust retarder, Banks Stinger and Solar Panels.
Toad: 1999 Jeep Wrangler 2-door soft-top.

"No one has ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke."
 

Re: TriMetric 2025 reads 88% Battery State of Charge

Reply #17 –
John - Thanks for the PM.  I'm sure we will be in touch.  Probably the 14th or 15th.
Scott & Carol Seibert
2001 42' double slide U320 - Sold
Previous - 2002 36' U320