Battery brand & style preference.....and why?

Topic: Battery brand & style preference.....and why? (Read 1008 times) previous topic - next topic

Battery brand & style preference.....and why?

June 18, 2014, 01:36:36 am

Since posting my last topic about my Inteli Power charger / converter there have been some of us asking about batteries and the idea that many of you might be able to really shed some light on the subject but may have skimmed over the topic since it was not soley battery related.

I am currently in the market for a couple new house batteries. My old girl has 3- 8D batteries. 1 start & 2 house. They have been wet cell and as mentioned in another post....they really are messy, need to be checked for fluid and topped off with distilled h20 from time to time.

Around June 2011 I purchased my first new battery...an Interstate 8D and at the time I had been running with my gen on everywhere we went for reasons really unknown at the time. As it turned out I had not only a bad but FRIED alternator and had installed a Trik-l-start and even a wizard smart chip or ?? For my charger / converter. Currently I have a brand new and great charging alternatorand with one good 8D wet cell, I want to replace both house batteries so I know they are new and I have something as a starting point to work with when it comes time to test other electronic parts.

This is a post about batteries...for me its about 8D batteries....to be more specific. ..about DEEP CYCLE 8D batteries and how to actually KNOW they are true deep cycle and not just standard 8D.

On my end I have to play it frugal and work on a bit less expensive side. With having 1 good wet cell now, I'd like to know thoughts on a brand highly liked in the 8D size thats a true deep cycle, has a good warranty thats able to be changed where ever there may be that brands service or sales branch and have no hassle. I am currently looking at an AC Delco 8DHD for $179 each. Why? Because its what my diesel mechanic neighbor can have deliveded. Its more about being new, matching and convenient.

With that said we have a carquest, auto value, advanced auto, chevy & ford / jeep dealer in my little po-dunk town...as well as a do-it-best center. All are places that do or might sell 8D batteries. ALSO there is a Napa store within 12-15 miles.

So of those choices who would recommend a pair of true deep cycle 8D batteries & why

Also, im completely open to learning about gel tops...I think thats what their called. I know they are not near as messy and that they cost a lot more than wet cells. Can someone please shed some light on the whole 8D battery, pros / cons, where to buy or brands & investment costs?

Thanks in advance

Re: Battery brand & style preference.....and why?

Reply #1 – June 18, 2014, 07:06:46 am

You may find this read interesting. As discussed earlier on other threads this simple topic is very complex!

HandyBob's Blog « Making off grid RV electrical systems work

Re: Battery brand & style preference.....and why?

Reply #2 – June 18, 2014, 07:16:55 am

Carl,

Here is a link to good information about Gel and AGM batteries - basically sealed battery technology that never needs to be topped off. Â THe article also discusses the pros and cons of each battery for differing applications:

http://www.dekabatteries.com/assets/base/1927.pdf

this one talks to basic battery care - battery life (conventional, AGM or GEL) VERY highly dependent on how you treat your batteries (basically use a good charger that is set correctly for the batteries that you are charging and try to discharge as little as possible between charging, NEVER leave in a discharged state - especially below 50% - for any length of time at all.)

http://www.dekabatteries.com/assets/base/0273EPM.pdf

when to use deep cycle vs starting is here :

http://www.dekabatteries.com/assets/base/0149.pdf

A good general article is here:

Deep Cycle Battery FAQ

and from that article :

Deep cycleÂ batteries are designed to be discharged down as much as 80% time after time, and have much thicker plates. The major difference between a true deep cycle battery and others is that the plates are SOLID Lead plates - not sponge. This gives less surface area, thus less "instant" power like starting batteries need.Â Although these can be cycled down to 20% charge, the best lifespan vs cost method is to keep the average cycle at about 50% discharge.Â Unfortunately, it is often impossible to tell what you are really buying in some of the discount stores or places that specialize in automotive batteries. The golf car battery is quite popular for small systems and RV's. The problem is that "golf car" refers to aÂ sizeÂ of battery case (commonly called GC-2, or T-105), not the type or construction - so the quality and construction of a golf car battery can vary considerably - ranging from the cheap off brand with thin plates up to true deep cycle brands, such as Crown, Deka, Trojan, etc. In general, you get what you pay for.Â

Hundreds if notÂ thousands of articles available here on the forum by using the search function to search the posts - try using multiple words in the searchÂ lie "battery 8d wet cell" instead of "8d"

Re: Battery brand & style preference.....and why?

Reply #3 – June 18, 2014, 09:49:47 am

A few months ago I bought a pair of 8D AGM batteries for our coach. I got them from O'Reilly's for just under a coach buck for the pair installed. The store had to order them, which was a good thing since that got me reasonably fresh batteries. I think I got deep-cycle ones, but I honestly don't remember and they are far too heavy to slide out just to look.

Too bad we can't eat batteries. They cost less than $4.00/pound - cheaper than hamburger.

Re: Battery brand & style preference.....and why?

Reply #4 – June 18, 2014, 10:55:37 am

I do not have money to throw away on anything and that is why I try to do all my own work (plus I know it HAS been done) and it is in that light that I spent a long time reading about Batteries when my time for them had arrived. I agree that a lot of my decision was also based on the Solar aspect but at the end of the day there was only one real one to look at and that was AGM. I opted for Lifeline (made in USA) and installed in equipment that had to work right all the time. Yes they are expensive but hopefully over their life they work outbetter than the rest.
I read all the time about Penn State and how big they are and the names under their corporate belt, but that does not prove anything to me except they are good at marketing. The Chinese are that way too, but most here would not touch them I feel.
Regarding AGNs I did note that most of the main players in the solar field recommend them as the best for long life and performance if regulated correctly.
Your views may differ.
JohnH

Re: Battery brand & style preference.....and why?

Reply #5 – June 18, 2014, 11:19:09 am

I bought my Lifelines from the dealer who advertises on the Prevost forums. It happened to be on Prevost rally weekend, so I got the rally price. He has them shipped from the factory in Southern California or you can pick them up there. Even his non-rally price was the best I could find.

To protect my investment, I installed a Bogart Electronics Trimetric 2020 and never let the batteries drop to 50%, or even near for that matter. It also reminds me to plug in or start the generator once a week to give them a good float charge to 100%.

And adding a couple hundred watts of solar helps greatly in staring well above the 50% level.

Re: Battery brand & style preference.....and why?

Reply #6 – June 18, 2014, 11:56:43 am

I need to be frugal as well. Regards "Penn State"; I just replaced three "MK" 365Ah gells that were OEM batteries - dated/installed in 1998. One of the three still tested at 87% of new. The other two were more deteriorated, but.... I believe Penn State makes a superior product as much as they may advertise same.

Quote

I do not have money to throw away on anything and that is why I try to do all my own work (plus I know it HAS been done) and it is in that light that I spent a long time reading about Batteries when my time for them had arrived.

Re: Battery brand & style preference.....and why?

Reply #7 – June 18, 2014, 12:15:12 pm

We just installed 2 8ds AGMs from O'Reilys Auto for house replacing the wet cells. $450 each made by Penn Mfg. Same as the Deka/MK. They were well rated/recommended here as well as other web sites. We replaced the starting battery last year with a Deka. We also have a Ultra Trikl-Start for the starting battery and Trimetric 2025RV to show State of Charge of the house batteries.

Re: Battery brand & style preference.....and why?

Reply #8 – June 18, 2014, 01:12:02 pm

Wow, lots of great advice and info to read. My j.o.b. is keeping me busy at the moment but I am looking forward to understanding all thats been shared. Im also taking into account that the coach we have now will not be our last....but actually our first, so it may come to basics for the time while getting an education for our future coach.

I definitely appreciate all the input so far.

Re: Battery brand & style preference.....and why?

Reply #9 – June 18, 2014, 01:16:20 pm

All batteries like to be charged at a lower voltage when batteries are hot, and at a higher voltage when batteries are cool.
A battery charger that measures battery voltage and automatically changes the charge voltage is needed to not over-volt charge.

All batteries use lead and the more lead, the higher capacity the battery So a battery that weighs more has higher capacity and vice versa This is helpful when comparing batteries

There are only a few battery manufacturers, so batteries with different labels may be the same battery if all things are equal. Same battery may be sold at different prices based solely on the warranty offered.

A wet battery may be marketed as maintenance free or even 'sealed', but it is still considered a wet battery

Warranty has two parts, how long battery will be replaced at no cost, and how long battery will be replaced at a higher cost for each month used. Warranty replacement may require battery to be returned with original invoice to the store purchase from, which can be a problem for travelers. Battery price is often higher for longer warranty, and vice versa Even if a battery is giving you a problem, the store may not honor warranty as they have lots of reasons to say no, so some stores are better than others, like Costco may be the best as they just take your word.

Wet batteries:

Too high voltage charging causes water/acid to evaporate, but causes no damage if water is replaced before plates become uncovered. Need attention to replace water that evaporates during charging. Evaporation can cause corrosion around battery from acid inside battery. Are always much cheaper than sealed batteries

AGM & GEL batteries:

Are made with lead & acid so weight can be used to compare to wet for capacity comparison.

Are completely sealed and CANNOT be opened to add any lost solution. Are sealed under internal pressure that must be maintained. Are called Valve Regulated Lead Acid (VRLA) batteries. Because they are sealed, over voltage charging may cause valve to open and release pressure, which usually damages battery.
Requires battery-temperature compensated charger, with adjustable charging profiles to prevent over voltage charging. Always cost much more than wet, often three times cost. Does not damage battery surroundings because they do not normally vent. Requires no maintenance as cells cannot be opened. Usually can handle deeper discharging without damage. AGM & GELL each have their own benefits and personal followings, some from experience and some from marketing claims.

Attached is the 'bible' for AGM & GELL published by East Penn DECA for their high quality MK battery line.
MK Battery: reference

Re: Battery brand & style preference.....and why?

Reply #10 – June 18, 2014, 01:59:38 pm

When we picked up our U300 in North Carolina, I bought three Autozone Duralast 34s for the engine batteries. Less than $300 for all three with a long warranty so if one goes bad, I will replace all three rather than just the bad one. Too easy to replace just one in summer and then pay for slow or non-starts in the winter plus possible starter damage. Engine batteries require either a jumper or separate trickle charger, otherwise, parasitic loss will flatten them in a month of storage.

For house batteries, I used old faithful Craigslist and found six Genesis™ Purelead XE 70X AGM batteries as seen in this link but with metal surround: Genesis XE70-0771-6001 12 Volt 68 Amp Hour Battery Don't have to worry about a temp probe for the house batteries as they can take super high amp charge from almost flat to fully charged in an hour and are good to 178 degrees.

In four years, we have had no failures and never use "boost" to start the Detroit. Spins as fast in winter as summer (extra ground cables).

House batteries work well also.

Pierce

Re: Battery brand & style preference.....and why?

Reply #11 – June 18, 2014, 02:11:43 pm

Quote from: Barry & Cindy – June 18, 2014, 01:16:20 pm

Warranty has two parts, how long battery will be replaced at no cost, and how long battery will be replaced at a higher cost for each month used. Warranty replacement may require battery to be returned with original invoice to the store purchase from, which can be a problem for travelers. Battery price is often higher for longer warranty, and vice versa Even if a battery is giving you a problem, the store may not honor warranty as they have lots of reasons to say no, so some stores are better than others, like Costco may be the best as they just take your word.

If you buy batteries from Autozone or O'Reilly's, you will be in the computer and don't need a receipt. Works in their stores in Mexico also.

Pierce

Re: Battery brand & style preference.....and why?

Reply #12 – June 18, 2014, 03:51:47 pm

Quote from: Carol & Scott – June 18, 2014, 12:15:12 pm

...just installed 2 8ds AGMs from O'Reilys Auto for house replacing the wet cells. $450 each made by Penn Mfg. We also have a Ultra Trik-L Start...

Another vote here for O'Reillys Auto. Same batteries, same exact price, AND they pulled out the old ones and slid in the new ones. Saved me a broken back!

Re: Battery brand & style preference.....and why?

Reply #13 – June 18, 2014, 04:09:12 pm

I also bought an 8D AGM from O'Reillys... This to replace two Optima Red tops for starting. So far, so good... simplified cabling to boot.
Don

Re: Battery brand & style preference.....and why?

Reply #14 – June 20, 2014, 09:17:25 am

Bought 3 from O'Reilly's this spring. Can't beat the East Penn product and the price was $419 each delivered to our business. Plus the warranty everywhere and listed in the computer base.

David

Re: Battery brand & style preference.....and why?

Reply #15 – June 20, 2014, 11:31:11 am

Don, hey that area above battery is a great place for another cabinet to store stuff. I put one in a few years ago and keep all my cleaners and oils in it. Make it out of wood and coat exterior with Ashpalt undercoating because of water thrown from tires. One extra benefit on doing this is it will keep leaves etc from getting thrown up to between the rad and CAC, a major saving to cleaning those areas. I have a slide out box sitting inside a wooden framed container. It can be taken out in less that 5 mins for access to battery and fuel filter if needed.
JohnH

Re: Battery brand & style preference.....and why?

Reply #16 – June 20, 2014, 01:12:44 pm

Quote from: Carol & Scott – June 18, 2014, 12:15:12 pm

We just installed 2 8ds AGMs from O'Reilys Auto for house replacing the wet cells. $450 each made by Penn Mfg. Same as the Deka/MK.

I am finding "SuperStart" 8D AGM batteries at O'Reilly. Is this the same battery you bought?

Craig

Re: Battery brand & style preference.....and why?

Reply #17 – June 20, 2014, 01:50:13 pm

That is the one I bought as a starting battery for our coach... I am sure two or more of them would be suitable for house batteries as well. Currently, our two 8D MK Gels are hanging in there, eventually to replaced by a 1000AH LiFePO4 (hopefully!), at about 4 times the cost of two 8D AGM's but with almost 4 times the usable capacity in the same space and theoretically two or three times the cycles.
Don

Quote from: wa_desert_rat – June 20, 2014, 01:12:44 pm

I am finding "SuperStart" 8D AGM batteries at O'Reilly. Is this the same battery you bought?

Craig

Re: Battery brand & style preference.....and why?

Reply #18 – June 20, 2014, 04:45:00 pm

Quote from: acousticart – June 20, 2014, 01:50:13 pm

Currently, our two 8D MK Gels are hanging in there, eventually to replaced by a 1000AH LiFePO4 (hopefully!), at about 4 times the cost of two 8D AGM's but with almost 4 times the usable capacity in the same space and theoretically two or three times the cycles.

It will be very interesting to see the long-term performance of that type of battery. I know they are supposed to be much safer than other Li-Ion types, but I'm really curious to read about real-world performance. It would be nice if they really are a true breakthrough . . . .

Re: Battery brand & style preference.....and why?

Reply #19 – June 20, 2014, 11:48:53 pm

Almost sprang for the Li-ion. $6k. Plus a special charger. Zero voltage drop until discharged. All or nothing

Re: Battery brand & style preference.....and why?

Reply #20 – June 22, 2014, 11:22:15 am

Quote from: Caflashbob – June 20, 2014, 11:48:53 pm

Almost sprang for the Li-ion. $6k. Plus a special charger. Zero voltage drop until discharged. All or nothing

You'd want to monitor power usage pretty carefully then, I think. And it poses some issues for coaches that are stored without power as well as those that are equipped with solar.

I expect prices to come down further, too. Interesting stuff.

Craig

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