Issues with non tag models with slide(s)

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Issues with non tag models with slide(s)

June 23, 2015, 03:15:25 pm

New to the Foretravel brand but coach hunting research has kept the name bubbling to the top. I am looking at the late '90 early '00 versions and am curious as to the handling and CCC of the U295 and U320 38' & 40' models with slide(s) but no tag. Been lurking on this awesome site for a couple of weeks and the knowledge base and willingness to help are most impressive - any help for a newbie (wannabe?) would be most appreciated. Also, what would be considered "high mileage" for a coach? I know these engines in trucks last well into the mid six figures but they are worked differently and I recognize the key is condition but any rule of thumb?

Thanks
David

Re: Issues with non tag models with slide(s)

Reply #1 – June 25, 2015, 07:27:41 pm

Howdy David, If you have'nt ran across these, here's some link's to some great info on this wonderful site:
Foreforums Foretravel Wiki
Foretravel Specifications, Floor Plans, Photos & Brochures by Year

Hopefully what you need is in on these sites.
Good Luck, Dave A

Re: Issues with non tag models with slide(s)

Reply #2 – June 25, 2015, 08:33:44 pm

Dave's pointed you to the web site that will give you all the data on CCC, etc. That said, everything about a Foretravel is the same quality whether it has a tag axle or not. The integrity of the proprietary chassis is second to none tag, no tag, slide, no slide. That goes for a 1990 or a 2015 coach. The difference is obviously new technology and third party equipment and materials available during engineering design. Good luck in your research and please ask anything you wish about Foretravels.

Re: Issues with non tag models with slide(s)

Reply #3 – June 25, 2015, 10:13:49 pm

I have attached a pdf file showing the results of having my coach weighed last year. It is a non-tag 2003 U295 with a single slide.

You will note that I have 2280 pounds of unused carrying capacity, this with all the tanks nearly full, driver and passenger, and fully loaded. I have all the bays and interior spaces loaded for bear, and note that a 38' single slide with no tag has lots more bay storage than larger tag-axle coaches.

So I see no issues with carrying capacity, either in pounds or in cubic feet.

As for handling, I cannot say as I have not driven a tag-axle Foretravel. However, this coach, with eight wide-set airbags and low center of gravity is the best handling coach i have driven. It drives with better than some SUVs I've owned. But, tag axle owners swear by them. The main handling plus from a tag axle is a longer wheel base.

Re: Issues with non tag models with slide(s)

Reply #4 – June 25, 2015, 10:40:12 pm

Off topic but related to the prior post, I've driven coaches with and without tags. I have a 42' no slide with tag. I don't think it offers much other than peace of mind knowing that it would be incredibly difficult to overload the coach. The coach still wanders like any other rv when not driven in the center of the road. Still pushes for tractor trailers though probably a bit less.

Re: Issues with non tag models with slide(s)

Reply #5 – June 26, 2015, 08:42:01 am

Many highways may have grooves which you can not see from heavy truck traffic. This causes you to swobble at times and you wonder why your coach is wandering. Should be minimum but will make you move the steering wheel. Be aware of the surface smoothness as roads look good but are not as level as you think. This will affect how you think your coach is driving.

Re: Issues with non tag models with slide(s)

Reply #6 – June 28, 2015, 07:58:40 am

Thanks for all the helpful responses, especially Tom Lang's weight data sheet.

Still researching coaches but for now it appears that the tag (at least with Foretravel chassis) offers little upside and downside is loss of basement space and added maintenance. Still don't understand Foretravel's design reasoning for adding a tag if double slides in nontags do not cause weight issues.

David

Re: Issues with non tag models with slide(s)

Reply #7 – June 28, 2015, 08:10:54 am

Quote from: oldgrayrider – June 28, 2015, 07:58:40 am

Still researching coaches but for now it appears that the tag (at least with Foretravel chassis) offers little upside and downside is loss of basement space and added maintenance. Still don't understand Foretravel's design reasoning for adding a tag if double slides in nontags do not cause weight issues.

It really depends on the coach. I recall one 40 foot non-tag U320, I think a 2002, that had very low CCC due to extensive use of tile and the engine being an ISM. Tom's is likely an ISL which is a much less weighty engine (somewhere around 600 lbs less according to my forum search).

Quote from: Tom Lang – June 25, 2015, 10:13:49 pm

You will note that I have 2280 pounds of unused carrying capacity, this with all the tanks nearly full, driver and passenger, and fully loaded.

Tom - the report you posted lists 3/4 fuel, 60% propane, Full fresh, but empty black and grey tanks. Is that an error on the report then?

Re: Issues with non tag models with slide(s)

Reply #8 – June 28, 2015, 09:51:50 am

Michelle, yes it an ISL400, and the report is correct. The black and gray tanks were empty and fuel and propane about as full as normal when traveling.

I've seen a similar coach to mine, 38' but having an added bedroom slide, ISM engine (U320), and tag axle. Yes, it does have added CCC, but the loss of bay storage and loss of access to batteries is more loss than I would want.

Re: Issues with non tag models with slide(s)

Reply #9 – June 28, 2015, 10:21:55 am

The tag went in for the bigger engine coaches. If you have an ism amd one slide the rear fully loaded for travel is about 21k. The tag gives great directional stability and about 7 k extra CCC.
The axle as rated properly but toll roads may turn you away over 20k. That was why everyone went to tags with the big coaches.

Re: Issues with non tag models with slide(s)

Reply #10 – June 28, 2015, 10:48:33 am

Quote from: Tom Lang – June 28, 2015, 09:51:50 am

I've seen a similar coach to mine, 38' but having an added bedroom slide, ISM engine (U320), and tag axle. Yes, it does have added CCC, but the loss of bay storage and loss of access to batteries is more loss than I would want.

Exactly - that's why it depends on the specific coach. A 38' or 40' with ISM and a bedroom slide would have almost no CCC without a tag (might even be over on the rear axle, as John mentions). It's a tradeoff - do you want more storage underneath or additional slide/bigger engine? If the coach has a tag, there's a reason for it.

Re: Issues with non tag models with slide(s)

Reply #11 – June 28, 2015, 11:22:28 am

36' ended in 2002 for the U320s as I recall. 38' U320s replaced the 36 ft. Some of the 38's were made with tags. Other models may have had a 36' for more years.

A 40' with a tag has about the same basement space as a 36'. If we were ever going to go bigger it would likely be a 42' tag. By the time we are aready to do that we might be ready to be done.

Roger

Re: Issues with non tag models with slide(s)

Reply #12 – June 28, 2015, 01:55:04 pm

U320 was made thru 05. A tag 42 has the same basement as a 40. You lose two feet with a tag but what you gain is much more CCC and a better driving coach.

Re: Issues with non tag models with slide(s)

Reply #13 – June 28, 2015, 02:02:18 pm

Quote from: piku – June 25, 2015, 10:40:12 pm

Off topic but related to the prior post, I've driven coaches with and without tags. I have a 42' no slide with tag. I don't think it offers much other than peace of mind knowing that it would be incredibly difficult to overload the coach. The coach still wanders like any other rv when not driven in the center of the road. Still pushes for tractor trailers though probably a bit less.

Mine does not wander ever.

Checked the drag link and Pittman arm and my guru x Foretravel chassis mechanic preloaded the wheel bearings a tiny bit. No dead spot. No wander.

I on purpose will move closer to the center line with large trucks coming the other way just for fun.

Hardly moves.

40' no tag. No slide. Most storage in and out below 45' as far as I see.

Re: Issues with non tag models with slide(s)

Reply #14 – June 28, 2015, 02:08:15 pm

I had no wander on my none tag coaches but in 40 mph cross winds it drives much better. Also I do not feel the trucks passing me.

Re: Issues with non tag models with slide(s)

Reply #15 – June 28, 2015, 02:52:45 pm

Quote from: John S – June 28, 2015, 02:08:15 pm

I had no wander on my none tag coaches but in 40 mph cross winds it drives much better. Also I do not feel the trucks passing me.

To the drive axle I think you are at 252"? Adding the tag you would be longer than my 276"

Re: Issues with non tag models with slide(s)

Reply #16 – June 28, 2015, 07:48:14 pm

The loss of storage is real, but tolerable. We came from a 32' winnebago adventurer which had loads of bin storage thanks to small tanks and clever storage ideas. The batteries were under the steps so they didn't take bin space. The generator was very small. It had under the bed storage whereas we don't now, etc. The overhead cabinets were much larger which contributed to a cramped feeling in that coach versus the airy feeing we have in ours now. Now we have a big engine which takes up bin storage on both sides, tag axle, battery bin, fuel tank takes up bin space, and some doof left a refrigerator/freezer in one of the bins

So as crazy as it sounds, we had trouble storage wise moving from a 32' winnebago to a 42' Foretravel.

Regarding the tag, isn't there some law in many states that stipulates a coach >40' must have a tag?

Re: Issues with non tag models with slide(s)

Reply #17 – June 28, 2015, 07:51:09 pm

Quote from: Caflashbob – June 28, 2015, 02:02:18 pm

Mine does not wander ever.

Checked the drag link and Pittman arm and my guru x Foretravel chassis mechanic preloaded the wheel bearings a tiny bit. No dead spot. No wander.

I on purpose will move closer to the center line with large trucks coming the other way just for fun.

Hardly moves.

40' no tag. No slide. Most storage in and out below 45' as far as I see.

Mine wanders for sure. Bearing preload is good to me... I'd rather wander than smoke a bearing. Most likely there is play in one of the steering linkage joints as there is a tiny dead spot. That dead spot is the problem as the steering will wander back and forth. If you sit in the grooves in the center line it stays planted. I too don't move for trucks. Dead center and hte coach doesn't wander anywhere then. If I ride the white line that's when the wander starts.

It's much better than my gas coach since the wheel base seems to be the same width as the trucks. That thing would wander all over the place unless you were on fresh concrete highway.

Actually it would be very interesting and educational for people to drive each other's coaches.

Re: Issues with non tag models with slide(s)

Reply #18 – June 28, 2015, 08:14:28 pm

While in Meccadoces Bernd is going to replace a steering arm on mine, claims it will get rid of my dead spot, now at about 1" of dead center free play. Part as I recall is $350 (ea x 2?) plus labor. 110k miles

Re: Issues with non tag models with slide(s)

Reply #19 – June 28, 2015, 09:01:30 pm

Quote from: Tim Fiedler – June 28, 2015, 08:14:28 pm

While in Meccadoces Bernd is going to replace a steering arm on mine, claims it will get rid of my dead spot, now at about 1" of dead center free play. Part as I recall is $350 (ea x 2?) plus labor. 110k miles

If you ever find out which parts, let me know. I'm sure I can find a truck shop here which could do the same or perhaps even take it on myself.

Re: Issues with non tag models with slide(s)

Reply #20 – June 28, 2015, 09:18:42 pm

will do

Re: Issues with non tag models with slide(s)

Reply #21 – June 29, 2015, 12:53:52 am

Quote from: piku – June 28, 2015, 07:51:09 pm

Mine wanders for sure. Bearing preload is good to me... I'd rather wander than smoke a bearing. Most likely there is play in one of the steering linkage joints as there is a tiny dead spot. That dead spot is the problem as the steering will wander back and forth. If you sit in the grooves in the center line it stays planted. I too don't move for trucks. Dead center and hte coach doesn't wander anywhere then. If I ride the white line that's when the wander starts.

It's much better than my gas coach since the wheel base seems to be the same width as the trucks. That thing would wander all over the place unless you were on fresh concrete highway.

Caflash post:

The wheel seal guys have a video for mechanics I watched on the internet that twice mentioned "legally defensible measure able adjustment"

In other words having a measure able .001-005 play in the hub/bearing conforms to a government issued bulletin that can be sited if a lawsuit is filed for whatever reason after a crash.

The actual preload needed is not quantifable. Any old time pro knows a bit of preload is needed to stop the wander.

My 20 year Foretravel factory store chassis mechanic preloads all the brands he works on to stop the customers wandering and dead spot complaints.

If the parts replacement does not eliminate your dead spot like it did not fix mine the last thing was to have Vincent adjust the wheel bearing for the second time. First time was a truck mechanic in a busy store who adjusted mine after replacing the seals.

He used the seals that rub directly on the hubs and as I watched set an .002 play in the hub. He had done hundreds successfully.

Talked with Vincent and he suggested changing the seals again to the type that had a wear ring installed on the hub first.

Part of the installation was to readjust the bearings.

First drive I called him from the coach and asked why I had no more dead spot or wander.

"I preloaded the bearings a little bit like I have been doing for 20 years as it eliminates the wander if the other parts are good."

I have checked mine repeatedly with a heat gun after long high temperature full load high speed runs and no heating issues.

Cost me money long ago to have wandering coaches as most buyers trade ins wandered.

So I learned to fix them new or used as a manager.

Several coaches I had preloaded have run over 300k miles without issue.

Like I mentioned watch the video from the seal maker where you can see the instructors pained look on his face as he mentions several times about the legally defensible measure able adjustment.

He knows better but the lawyers I assume make them do it the non sue able way.

Yea it wanders. But it's measure able.

Do what you feel confortable with.

Can't stand a vehicle I cannot drive from the bottom of the steering wheel or had a dead spot.

Mine had it. Does not have it now.

Actually it would be very interesting and educational for people to drive each other's coaches.

Re: Issues with non tag models with slide(s)

Reply #22 – June 29, 2015, 07:46:13 am

Quote from: piku – June 28, 2015, 07:51:09 pm

Mine wanders for sure. Bearing preload is good to me...

This and a few posts below are unrelated to the tag axle question and should be split into their own topic.

Re: Issues with non tag models with slide(s)

Reply #23 – June 29, 2015, 09:30:14 am

As John and Michelle mentioned above--our 38' tag model with the Living Room, bedroom slide and the Cummins ISM would
be over weight on the rear axle if it didn't have a tag.
I attached a weigh slip with the front and rear weights {drive & tag axle}
Coach was just fueled -- so full fuel, propane above 3/4, full fresh water empty gray & black tanks.
2 occupants--no pets and no toad.
Had all our "stuff" for a trip--so pretty much packed http://www.foreforums.com/smileys/default/smiley.gif

You can see the rear weight was over 24000 lbs--would have been 3000 lbs over on a non-tag model.

We could still carry an additional 5000+ lbs with out being over weight--I don't know where it would fit though.

When we are in Texas this fall I will get over to Livingston to have the individual wheels weighed.

Does the tag axle take some of the weight off the front axle ?
Looks like ours weighed about 800+ lbs less on the front axle than the non tag weigh slip show above.

Hope this helps in your decision--they are all fine coaches--just find the one that fits for you.
Jim

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