Coach at MOT for frame/bulkhead damage

Topic: Coach at MOT for frame/bulkhead damage (Read 1011 times) previous topic - next topic

Coach at MOT for frame/bulkhead damage

February 11, 2017, 09:29:34 pm

After reading the post re. bulkhead damage by Michael, and actually having the opportunity to visit with Scott and Carol after their ordeal with bulkhead damage I had MOT check my coach while it is there. This turned out to be a good decision. The frame/bulkhead is damaged in two areas. One of the involved areas is the area surrounding the blackwater tank vent (never new one existed), which is right in front of the rear tire on the passenger side and looks like a dryer vent cover. I was told the function of the vent is to expel fumes from the black tank along with moisture/condensation. When the fiberglass was pulled down around the vent you could see where someone previously had done a lousy job of sealing the vent hose as it exits the fiberglass covering on the bottom of the frame. This allowed at least two things to happen.... as moisture exited the vent hose it could either continue to the ground or wick back up the sides of the vent hose and collect on the top side of the fiberglass. Also I was told the poor caulking job left an area wide open to moisture from the road etc., to make its way to the frame members.
The second area of damage is directly across from the blackwater tank vent. This is the area directly under the black water hookup itself. Soon after I bought the coach (May 2016), on my first trip with the coach, when I opened the cap on the blackwater pipe in order to attach my hose from it to the dump station I was greeted by a fair amount of black water just waiting for someone to pull the cap off. This month when the coach was with the folks at MOT I asked them to repair this leak which they did (nice job BTW).
SO, as I say the second area of damage is directly around the trap door which the sewer hose/50 amp cord pass thru allowing one to close the bay door. Apparently this leak had been there for a good long while...and what was happening was the water leaking down the blackwater pipe, was seeping past the cap, and entering the frame area via the trim piece which surrounds the trap door...the damage in this area is the worst of the two.
I took some pics while under the coach but they aren't to clear so I decided not to post but I will if others would like to view. Does anyone have a clue as to why FT did not at the very least prime the frame of the coach? I understand many paints are not designed to be exposed to constant moisture/water and even exterior paints in those conditions will at some point fail. But I would think something, anything, would have been better than what was used...which was nothing.
In speaking with the tech at MOT they now have done 7 or 8 of these frame repairs. Their repair methods are constantly evolving. MOT now applies some type of under coat, laps the fiberglass, new adhesive for the fiberglass etc..
I met a man over the weekend who is a general contractor and who has the exclusive contract to refurbish the table tops used in the chemistry labs at a major university in Texas....yep want to mess something up...give it to a college kid! Anyway what led to his success with refurbishing these chemistry lab tables (Univ. held payment for one year to insure repairs held) is a product called PSX 700 made by PPG. This product is intended for marine use, the Navy uses the semigloss version of this product for its anchors and chains with great success (not avail. to the public).
Plan is now to contact MOT next week and talk with Keith/Eric re. if PSX 700 would be superior to what they are using now and could this product prevent further frame damage from water? The cost is $300.00 per gallon but this repair will cost me 3 grand....not a bad trade off ?
Lastly thank you to Michael and Scott and the others who posted re. the bulkhead issue...my coach would still be sitting outside slowly rusting away if you folks had not taken the time to inform the rest of us....THANKS AGAIN.
Be Safe
Dave

Re: Coach at MOT for frame/bulkhead damage

Reply #1 – February 11, 2017, 10:01:59 pm

Dave, it is a good thing that you had it checked out and are going to do something about it. Bulkhead issues have been known and discussed for a long time. Some have been more aggresive at the diagnosis and discovery process and then the repairs. Now we have MOT doing a much more complete inspection routine and I am sure many of us will find problems in exactly the same areas you have. Many have just assumed things were OK. Now there is a way to be sure and fix it before it gets too far along. If it is water damage then it may be covered under your comprehensive insurance. It is worth asking.

A few thousand coaches were built basically the same way. Maybe there could have been a better design, maybe better coatings, maybe fewer leaks over the 12-22 years these have been in service. It is probably best to just figure out where you are and fix what needs fixing and get back to enjoying your coach.

Let us know how the PSX300 works. Remember it will still only be on the parts you have access to to coat. Maybe the entire bottom skin should removed so you can coat as much as you can get to.

Good luck with the repairs.

Re: Coach at MOT for frame/bulkhead damage

Reply #2 – February 11, 2017, 10:15:42 pm

Dave, what you are talking about is not a black tank vent as that is/has to be on the roof. It is the one they install for a dryer vent installation ( and they should know that) Just like your house they have to be out of the way of so fumes should not be affecting humans etc.
Sounds to me to be a bit of BS and am 100% sure I am right on that vent use.
JohnH

Re: Coach at MOT for frame/bulkhead damage

Reply #3 – February 11, 2017, 10:33:47 pm

I am wondering why no epoxy paint or coatings? When we started down the road of long distance sailing we were considering steel. Highly resistant to coral😊. At the time we would have blasted and then used epoxy coatings. If this was used in salt water environments, it could also be used in this instance. I also applied epoxy as a barrier coat on the boat I restored. It has been 20 years since then and things have evolved but it would seem to be another way to proceed. Agree on the black tank vent being on top not the side.

Re: Coach at MOT for frame/bulkhead damage

Reply #4 – February 11, 2017, 10:37:52 pm

2 part epoxy paint has been used for ages on bridges and structures sitting all year in sea water so would be a good item to use on frame but it would be best if the total frame was done not just a bit.
JohnH

Re: Coach at MOT for frame/bulkhead damage

Reply #5 – February 11, 2017, 10:49:47 pm

Dave, maybe this help us feel better about looking after this area...i have about yearly asked one or two service places, are my bulkhead ok? Yes they said. I think most of the time that was looking for wavy bulkhead or separation along the seam, maybe a loose bolt.

This year though I asked extra inspection, which you read about in the original thread. Only Risch sharp eye caught that small seam separation between fiberglass and frame. Even that he thought was ok, would reseal, but told his tech to explore further.

Eric told me back then they were going to inspect this more than before how to look at the bulkhead area. One that Risch was already looking for was that vertical seam separation, a more serious sign.

What I am saying is we, owners, know now to give it more attention, a different examine. We are fortunate we all learned. I think someone, maybe John, even suggested removing a section of the fuberglass cover underneath to inspect the tubing. Sounds right, save a lot of money versus the unknown progression to a more expensive repair later. Wish I had done that.

And Dave you saw the same thing, we need to pay a lot of attention to the area of the trap door. Thanks for your report.

Re: Coach at MOT for frame/bulkhead damage

Reply #6 – February 11, 2017, 10:57:18 pm

Michael your documenting this was invaluable. I examined mine in that area earlier today and I am certain I will need a trip to MOT in the near future. Hope I can bring it in at the same price.

Re: Coach at MOT for frame/bulkhead damage

Reply #7 – February 11, 2017, 11:02:15 pm

This is the nature of forensic investigation. I think Foretravel was following standard procedure, most cars during this era were built with unpainted mild steel frames along with skyscrapers, most buildings etc. Had they not suffered water incursion this would be no problem. Now we know this ideal is unlikely, and doubt there is any coach that hasn't had some degree of water intrusion.

Marine service in seawater is not really a valid comparison with an over the road vehicle.

Re: Coach at MOT for frame/bulkhead damage

Reply #8 – February 11, 2017, 11:32:42 pm

Chuck is quite correct as domestic car makers have long considered their vehicles to have a very limited lifespan when operated in areas where road chemicals are used. I have been astonished to see new pickups truck with absolutely zero protection underneath. Many European cars have had corrosion protection for many years with Porsche hot dip galvanizing the entire car starting in the mid 1970's. Protecting the whole car only added $100 to the production cost. A very small price to pay.

Pierce

Re: Coach at MOT for frame/bulkhead damage

Reply #9 – February 11, 2017, 11:47:36 pm

A self etching primer followed by a rust preventative paint will provide excellent protection against moisture. Both have been around a long time. This at http://www.amazon.com/POR-15-45001-Gloss-black-Preventive/dp/B00H2VVKHM/ref=pd_day0_263_4?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=4950F9P4QZCR5BVMR5GS
Pierce

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Re: Coach at MOT for frame/bulkhead damage

Reply #10 – February 11, 2017, 11:48:24 pm

Micheal, in your original comments and again a short time ago brought me back to some checking while my panels were removed for the air bag replacement I just did. The verticle join of panels on mine had a similar difference of seperation along this joint so I checked a bit further. I came to the conclusion that in the original build of our coach there was not a great deal of inspection done as to the holes that hold these panels on in the vertical plane and in correspondence to each other. I found that there was a difference of over an 1/8th of an inch between the holes/ centres in adjoining panels looking from top to bottom. This gave the illusion that this joint had seperated somewhat but in fact it had been that way from day 1. I had also noticed (actually each time I took these panels off) that the frame build up was not really the way you would accept on a vehicle of such cost as FT had used pieces of F Glass strips to fill the void that was made between the angle iron vertical framing either side of wheel well panels and the next corresponding frame work. In other words -to make them even so panels fit flush on outside they stuck these strips behind the edges that are screwed to frame. Not a very technical thing to do but I suppose they thought no one would be removing them to notice.
Getting back to your comment on the sewer trap door area, I feel this is a VERY overlooked area of inspection and remedy of owners thinking all is well, even though as I have mentioned some of the coach's I have looked at are in bad shape there and no one seems to be worried about it. Once I noticed mine having some rust showing I took it all apart there to find out what was going on- and fixed it- fast. Door rubber seals are another pet peeve of mine and I try to make sure the corners/joins are intact and no chance of road dirt/ water getting into bays. There are so many simple simple things that one should be constantly looking at it behooves me to understand why others do not. These things (coach's) are not cheap to begin with so why would an owner not be interested in keeping it clean and dry?
Anyway I still think the fix being done with these section removals and rebuild is not as good as it should be for the money and should be perfected at the beginning not improved every time another is done and more learning has happened but at the last persons expense.
JohnH

Re: Coach at MOT for frame/bulkhead damage

Reply #11 – February 12, 2017, 12:04:51 am

Jihn, glad to know the vertical separation may be only a sign of building, not from pulling apart. Very glad to hear. However, on the one Risch showed me to educate me, unfortunately that one had some major damage underneath

As to the sewer trap door, that very dang obvious to me, now. The little rubber sealing strip on one side needed fresh glue.

Moving from that to your next topic...i figure you have photos or such of the bay door sealing problems and fixes? I saw as you mentioned that at the corners in particular that sealing becomes worn....i need to do something. Do i replace the entire rubber sealing strip or do I cut maybe a four inch strip off at the corner and replace only that?

That rubber sealing strip is not inexpensive if I replace the entire strip across all bays though compared to any damage repairs it would be money well spent!

Re: Coach at MOT for frame/bulkhead damage

Reply #12 – February 12, 2017, 12:13:32 am

Mike, actually the fix I have done for the corners seems to be working and that is I use a GOOD strong urethane caulk to fill the ends of both verticle and horizontal rubber seals then form the caulk over both so it is actually joining them. I build it up enough so the faces are level then leave the doors open for it to set. Use the black one as it will match better. This does work well and is a lot cheaper than ripping the old off and buying new, plus you will still have to join the ends of the new one anyway.
Just going back to the trap door. Mine has been extended about 3" either side so it gives a much increased area of sealing. I also built a new one but if the original is in good shape then another piece can be added to it and use the foam sealer strips to place on top to contact the underside of coach and close this off to road crap.
JohnH

Re: Coach at MOT for frame/bulkhead damage

Reply #13 – February 12, 2017, 12:57:27 am

Sorry you are having a problem Dave.

Our coach does not have a "blackwater" vent behind the rear tire, but like every coach, has a roof PVC black tank vent.

Most Foretravels have a fresh water vent forward of the rear tire that has an outside cover that looks a little like a dryer vent cover. Many have made a simple reroute through a bay floor, of the fresh water vent hose so it no longer flows over the bulkhead when tank is overfilled.

I had no idea any coach has your black tank vent.

Re: Coach at MOT for frame/bulkhead damage

Reply #14 – February 12, 2017, 07:51:39 am

Thanks everyone! Bottom line I'm thankful things are not any worse. Am I happy about the estimated three thousand cost to repair? Well, of course not, could buy a lot of nice cold beer and camping fees for three grand but it is what it is. I'm not going to fret or whine about it, I will just fix it, monitor it much more closely and move on.
Roger I did try the insurance route, and because this damage is the result of a long standing issue the terms of my insurance contract with Farmers do not apply in this instance. I didn't think I had a shot when I filed the claim but it sure doesn't hurt to ask.
As far as posted replies to being told the vent hole in front of the passenger side rear tire is for the black water tank I will definitely be asking more questions about that. If it is truly a vent for the washer/dryer I may have them seal that puppy off, (forum advice on sealing off the vent please!).
My biggest concern is to get the coach back asap as I have a trip next month with my friends for a week of motorcycle riding, grilling, chilling, dominoes (Mexican train), and of course a nice tottie in the evening with a good cigar!
Thanks everyone!
Be Safe
dave

Re: Coach at MOT for frame/bulkhead damage

Reply #15 – February 12, 2017, 10:05:24 am

"along with moisture/condensation. When the fiberglass was pulled down around the vent you could see where someone previously had done a lousy job of sealing the vent hose as it exits the fiberglass covering on the bottom of the frame. This allowed at least two things to happen.... as moisture exited the vent hose it could either continue to the ground or wick back up the sides of the vent hose and collect on the top side of the fiberglass. Also I was told the poor caulking job left an area wide open to moisture from the road etc., to make its way to the frame members. " end of quote

Dave, the above quote from your post I had problems understanding it and what they (MOT) meant by it and thought it was the dryer vent but after reading it again now I too feel he means the fresh water overflow which should be not used anymore and hose rerouted. I agree any bad caulking should be re done. This is part of your regular maintenance--checking as much as possible on exterior of coach to make sure road water and leaks do not get to framing.
JohnH

Re: Coach at MOT for frame/bulkhead damage

Reply #16 – February 12, 2017, 10:21:00 am

On my FT the black water vent is on the roof, the fresh water vent/overflow is at the rear bulkhead and the washer/dryer vent is on the side of the coach.

If your fresh water tank has an external vent that exits in front of the rear tire then it shouldn't be causing any more of a rust problem than driving in the rain or washing the coach.

To dress-up the opening and ensure that I don't have a problem where the sewer hose goes through the little trap door I used 2 aluminum pieces that were bent 90 degrees on a brake, which I "framed" the opening with by gluing them on with butyl rubber sealant. The pieces on the vertical are as wide as the floor sandwich, and on the horizontal they extend over the floor about 1". I used a lot of the sealant, letting it ooze out and then wiping it off, especially on the bottom where the filon meets the aluminum.

The silver spot on the aluminum is where the latch wore away the black finish when the trap door is closed.

Re: Coach at MOT for frame/bulkhead damage

Reply #17 – February 12, 2017, 03:44:31 pm

I did the same thing Tman as you with a alum'n frame around the opening. Did the rest of that bay 2 in alum'n as well and happy as it stays clean and rust free.
JohnH

Re: Coach at MOT for frame/bulkhead damage

Reply #18 – February 13, 2017, 12:04:31 am

Quote from: John Haygarth – February 12, 2017, 10:05:24 am

"along with moisture/condensation. When the fiberglass was pulled down around the vent you could see where someone previously had done a lousy job of sealing the vent hose as it exits the fiberglass covering on the bottom of the frame. This allowed at least two things to happen.... as moisture exited the vent hose it could either continue to the ground or wick back up the sides of the vent hose and collect on the top side of the fiberglass. Also I was told the poor caulking job left an area wide open to moisture from the road etc., to make its way to the frame members. " end of quote

Dave, the above quote from your post I had problems understanding it and what they (MOT) meant by it and thought it was the dryer vent but after reading it again now I too feel he means the fresh water overflow which should be not used anymore and hose rerouted. I agree any bad caulking should be re done. This is part of your regular maintenance--checking as much as possible on exterior of coach to make sure road water and leaks do not get to framing.
JohnH

Actually John, I was a bit confused myself as I lay under the coach and listened to the tech explain to me what the function of this 3 inch pvc looking pipe was. It IS located in front of the rear wheel curb side. The forum members seem to be much more in tune with what this pipe is than the tech but....I will get it straight. BTW I like your fix around the trap door...that is something that is within my skill set...I will get that done asap....thanks for the post.
dave

Re: Coach at MOT for frame/bulkhead damage

Reply #19 – February 13, 2017, 12:30:05 am

Dave, your description sound like it could be a sewer hose storage PVC pipe, used to store a disconnected sewer hose. Hole with door on back bay wall connected to a right angle elbow that is connected to a long PVC pipe running side to side behind tires a short distance above the bottom bulkhead.

Re: Coach at MOT for frame/bulkhead damage

Reply #20 – February 13, 2017, 10:16:40 am

Barry, my tube (access from inside the wet bay) and wet bay are on the driver side and Dave mentions the "curb side".
As he mentions he hopes to get it sorted out as the Tech either explained it wrong or is full of it??.

JohnH

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