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Topic: Interesting historical tidbit on Foretravel front end alignments (Read 1593 times) previous topic - next topic

Interesting historical tidbit on Foretravel front end alignments

At Old Town Motorcoach this past week, Wayne (long timer from FT factory now at OTM) gave me an abbreviated historical explanation on FT alignments.  Thought it would be interesting to share.  I'll use our coach as an example.

You may still have the factory alignment sticker underneath your dash flip-up cover.  Mine says that the Caster - left was originally aligned at 4.5 degrees, and right was aligned at 5.25 degrees.  Wayne says that, prior to 2002 or 2003, they performed all alignments using measuring sticks and bubble levels.  In 2002 or 2003, Foretravel got a laser alignment system.  And they discovered that although they thought they were aligning older Foretravels to 4.5-5.5 degrees with the measurement/bubble system, they were really being aligned to about 2 degrees (as measured by the laser alignment system).  As Wayne describes it, 2 degrees is too shallow, and leaves too much weight directly over the top of the wheel (as opposed to being leaned/pushed back towards the rest of the body/frame) - so stability takes a hit.

So, if you saw a huge increase in driving performance after an alignment, it may not be because it was "knocked" or worked its way out of alignment, it may never have been in correct alignment!

And if your FT "drives like a bicycle with too much of your weight over the front wheel" (as Wayne put it), like ours does, then it is time to get an alignment!  As noted elsewhere on the forum, any semi/truck place that does front end work can perform an alignment on a FT.

The correct alignment values for our 1999 U270 are:

Caster:
Left: 4.5-5.0 degrees,  Right: 5.0-5.5 degrees  (Use a half degree spread right-to-left)

Camber:
Do not adjust

Toe:
1/16"-1/8"

Re: Interesting historical tidbit on Foretravel front end alignments

Reply #1 –
I had wandering issue and I've been slowly increasing toe-in and it has been improving it.  I had an alignment done 3 years ago at Josams in orlando, but as I've seen in some researching, setting the toe on the rack may not be what toe is going down the road.  I'm just increasing toe-in a tiny bit at a time till I get good handling and I will monitor tire wear.

Re: Interesting historical tidbit on Foretravel front end alignments

Reply #2 –
Another thing to note, if you have changed your steering box, is that the box is centered before centering the steering wheel.
I have just had my alignment done and they found that the box was not centered?? It was removed and reworked two years ago??
Speedbird 1.

Re: Interesting historical tidbit on Foretravel front end alignments

Reply #3 –
Wayne did an alignment on our coach the year we bought it. Driving down from Wis. was a nightmare. After Wayne found out the front was toed out 3/8" and should have been toed in (I forgot how much) the coach drove like a dream when Wayne got done with it.
You won't find anyone that knows our coaches better than Wayne, or aligns them any better.

Re: Interesting historical tidbit on Foretravel front end alignments

Reply #4 –
My question now is "what were the values before he changed them"? I just had one done at our local truck shop and gave him the readings from under dash to go from. He said that almost exactly as original but about 1/32 nd out on toe, so now I am thinking uh uh!!
JohnH

Re: Interesting historical tidbit on Foretravel front end alignments

Reply #5 –
Wayne is a true Master. He did my alignment at FT and I couldn't be happier.

Re: Interesting historical tidbit on Foretravel front end alignments

Reply #6 –
Quote from: John Haygarth –
My question now is "what were the values before he changed them"? I just had one done at our local truck shop and gave him the readings from under dash to go from. He said that almost exactly as original but about 1/32 nd out on toe, so now I am thinking uh uh!!
JohnH
By what he posted John. If your coach checked out according to the tag under dash your ok and good to go.


Re: Interesting historical tidbit on Foretravel front end alignments

Reply #7 –
Quote from: John Haygarth –
My question now is "what were the values before he changed them"? I just had one done at our local truck shop and gave him the readings from under dash to go from. He said that almost exactly as original but about 1/32 nd out on toe, so now I am thinking uh uh!!
JohnH

Possible that the coach was aligned post-sale by someone else before you got it?  If so, readings should be pretty much on?

By what Wayne suggested, if it hadn't been, then you probably should have been a few degrees shallow.

Re: Interesting historical tidbit on Foretravel front end alignments

Reply #8 –
One thing to remember-only have an alignment done when the coach is loaded for travel.

Re: Interesting historical tidbit on Foretravel front end alignments

Reply #9 –
AND, verifying/setting RIDE HEIGHT should be part of any alignment.

Re: Interesting historical tidbit on Foretravel front end alignments

Reply #10 –
I was unhappy with excessive wandering/correction required after having my coach laser aligned at a big truck place.  Took it to Nac and had Wayne align it, no improvement.  I installed a safe-t-plus steering center/damper.  This helped but still not acceptable.  One day I crawled under it, took some measurements and  dialed in about 1/8" more toe in.  Vastly improved, as a fact it is the best driving Foretravel I've driven, of several.  One handed drivng "from the bottom of the wheel" is the norm ever since, no sawing at the wheel.

Haven't noticed any unusual wear patterns on tires from it, and given that tires will never be worn out, wouldn't really care if I did.

Re: Interesting historical tidbit on Foretravel front end alignments

Reply #11 –
Quote from: Chuck Pearson –
One day I crawled under it, took some measurements and  dialed in about 1/8" more toe in.  Vastly improved, as a fact it is the best driving Foretravel I've driven, of several.

I've been slowly increasing toe-in on mine. Takes about 5 minutes to loosen the bolts with cordless impact and give a turn on the rod.

I also turned the drag link to center the steering wheel. Popping the wheel off inside and turning it messes up the turn signal cancel function.

I bet most RVs here don't have enough toe in. It's set on the rack without all the components loaded up like going down the road. 1/16 to 1/8 toe-in minium seems to be a good starting point on trucks.  Also, rear axle alignment matters too to reduce "pulling".

Re: Interesting historical tidbit on Foretravel front end alignments

Reply #12 –
"any semi/truck place that does front end work can perform an alignment on a FT." 
How they know what to do how to do, is it based on the model/brand of axle FT used for a given year? 

Last time Wayne had done ours in 2016 when he was still with FT. Ours is slightly pulling to right.  I am advised first to get the tires rebalanced and rotate. Tires only have about 8k miles on them.
We were at FT ... long story .. after replacing the windshields there was not enough time left to get the alignment done. I am not sure if I want to do 450 mil round trip to Nac just to get alignment.

I see some of you were able to do some correction, do the alignment on your own.  I have a friend who does alignment in his shop all day long and he is very very good. What information can I give him that we maybe able tackle it ourselves? Some of you may recall my previous stories. The friend I am talking about is the one who had done the suspension work/improvement for our previous FT, the sumo shocks and steering damper and all that. So if I can get information, what bolt/nut to and the measurements I am sure he can help me do this. I believe we are dealing with Caster and Toe only, no camber correct?
Thank you,
AL

Re: Interesting historical tidbit on Foretravel front end alignments

Reply #13 –
I called James T at FoT fit my numbers

For my 2003 U295:

Left caster 4 to 5 degrees

Right caster 4.5 to 5.5 degrees

Camber non adjustable

Toe 1/32 to 1/16

With ride height 8 to 8.25 inches as measured inside plate to inside plate on the air bags.

I would call and verify your numbers are the same.

Re: Interesting historical tidbit on Foretravel front end alignments

Reply #14 –
Changing the castor is not easy. You have to add shims to the axle plate. I just had my axle unbolted to replace the air bags and there were no shims.  Any shims added would need to be rather specific IMHO  as the load is substantial  and crushing the shim/axle inter face results in a loose axle.  This adjustment might cost  300- 500$ 
 Setting the toe is easy if the cross shaft turns. As mentioned, add just enough that you like driving it.
 Shoving the rear of the  wheels rearward/ together  with a small rachet strap ,will show any system slop that may affect optimal  static toe settings.    This method can reveal why the toe setting measured static, does not give the desired drive results.
  While I have not seen this mentioned in the factory book, many German cars/trucks advise this method.
  KISS , measure the toe, adjust as desired. 1/4in in  seems to work for me  and the proper tire pressure  will tolerate less toe. 

Re: Interesting historical tidbit on Foretravel front end alignments

Reply #15 –
With our trailing arms, raising the ride height also raises castor. Good chance that any stability gained by added castor is lost by CG and center of pressure  change .

Re: Interesting historical tidbit on Foretravel front end alignments

Reply #16 –
The unihomes chassis has long upper and lower trailing beam axles so the caster changes are nearly eliminated as the suspension goes through it travel and the long Pittman arm and the relocated steering box mounting position nearly eliminates the "bump" steer that a frame rail mounted steering box shows.

Smooth road the differences are negligible.  Rolling roads are a much different thing
 

Re: Interesting historical tidbit on Foretravel front end alignments

Reply #17 –
Quote from: speedbird1 –
Another thing to note, if you have changed your steering box, is that the box is centered before centering the steering wheel.
I have just had my alignment done and they found that the box was not centered?? It was removed and reworked two years ago??
Speedbird 1.

When I replaced  my steering box I remembered a thread on here about NOT re-placing the steering box at the original centered position because there is wear there. I noticed that there is WAY more travel in the box than is allowed by the suspension with the steering stops, replacing the pitman arm on a little different spot than original point was not a problem.