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Generator Self Starts

July 13, 2018, 09:33:38 pm

Our '98 U270 is equipped with a Power Tech PST-IDL8000FT generator with auto start function.  We keep the coach a pole barn about 100 yards behind our house and plugged in to 50 amp power.  Yesterday morning I discovered that the generator was running and my best guess is that it had been running for approximately 24 hours.  I entered the coach and found the dash switch already in the off position, and I was only able to stop the engine by using the generator mounted on/off master switch.  Now any time the master switch is moved to the on position the generator starts again.  I removed all wires from the dash switch with no change.  I studied wiring diagrams and it appears that other than wiring all other components are located within the generator mounted control box.  I e-mailed Power Tech this morning, but have not yet received a reply.  My guess is failure of the auto start module, however I can't find any info to facilate diagnostics and identification of the failed component.  I'd appreciate your experiences and/or suggestions.

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Re: Generator Self Starts

Reply #1 – July 13, 2018, 09:56:03 pm

Might check your switch over the bed.

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Reply #2 – July 13, 2018, 10:08:12 pm

Thanks for your reply and that's a good suggestion, however we don't have that switch in our coach.

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Reply #3 – July 13, 2018, 10:20:41 pm

It could be the latching relay is stuck but I wouldn't think it could actuate itself. Might meter the relay and see if you are getting an open and closed circuit when you actuate it.

Mark

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Re: Generator Self Starts

Reply #4 – July 13, 2018, 10:53:09 pm

Don,
There are several generations of Powertech designs. 
BUT, IIRC, once the generator has been started by its "Auto-Start" module, your generation design requires that your generator dash switch must be placed in the "Manual" position.  Then BOTH of the switches (located on the generator) must be turned OFF in order to reset the "Auto-Start" module trigger to OFF.  Then, turn the Master Switch on the generator back to ON which, in essence, "enables" the remote start switch on the dash  as well as sets up the "Auto-Start" module for action, if it once again senses the need and your generator dash switch has been placed in "Auto" mode.  Have you tried that?
HTH,
Neal

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Re: Generator Self Starts

Reply #5 – July 13, 2018, 11:46:12 pm

I recently had a similar situation with my 1999 10kw generator.  Basically my problems were caused by broken wires, so you might want to look inside your control box and make sure there are no wires unhooked or broken.
This thread chronicles my misadventures:    Generator not running

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Re: Generator Self Starts

Reply #6 – July 14, 2018, 03:33:34 am

Could be its starting because of its intended purpose.
Did you check the condition of your batteries. One bad battery could cause the generator to start if it senses a low voltage ( 12.2 volts or less.) condition.

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Reply #7 – July 14, 2018, 05:51:38 am

My auto start times out at 4 hours regardless of battery condition. 

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Reply #8 – July 14, 2018, 09:21:20 am

Even if I had 'auto-start', I'd make sure it was not functioning over night at a campground!

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Reply #9 – July 14, 2018, 02:49:36 pm

Thanks for all the reply's and suggestions.  Here's the situation now: The Stop/Preheat & Start rocker switch located on the generator mounted control panel was in the start position.  Is the rocker switch a simple on/off, and if it is how did it move to the on position after setting in storage unused for three months?  Or is it a two position momentary switch that should return to a center netural position when released?  If it is a momentary switch, it has failed and the mystery is solved.  We've owned motor homes 35 years and this coach 14 years and I'm still amazed at how often they break down while parked. 

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Re: Generator Self Starts

Reply #10 – July 14, 2018, 05:14:25 pm

On my 99 U270 with an 8K genset it is a momentary switch. When pressed it actuates the latching relay which starts the es52 in the normal startup sequence.

Mark

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Re: Generator Self Starts

Reply #11 – July 14, 2018, 07:22:35 pm

Thanks Mark, that's the answer I was hoping for.  I'll call Power Tech Monday and order a new switch.  I think that in the future I'll turn off the generator master switch when the coach is in storage, just to be sure the problem doesn't reoccur. 

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Reply #12 – July 14, 2018, 10:06:20 pm

Lack of pictures and some wording that you have used make it difficult to understand and help.

You say "I entered the coach and found the dash switch already in the off position..............."

If your generator dash switches are like mine (see pictures below), the dash switch should normally be in the "OFF" (toggled down) position because it is a momentary switch, spring loaded to the "OFF" (down) position.  However, you did not say whether or not you moved that switch (momentarily) to the "ON/OFF" position.  If you did and the generator failed to stop and IF your second generator dash switch was in the AUTO position, the fault could be one or more of several things: either in that switch, in the auto start module itself, in an open sensing wire to the auto start module, in a stuck auto start module latching relay (as Maz has noted) or a battery condition of less than setpoint value (generally 12.2 Vdc decreasing) calling for the generator to run (as Lon has noted).  In my estimation, two of the most likely causes for a coach in storage would be an actual low battery condition or an open or high resistance connection in the sensing wire to the Auto Start module, IF you had the controls set to "Auto Start" on the dash.

You say "I was only able to stop the engine by using the generator mounted on/off master switch."  That's good and is likely just as it should be, IF you had the generator set for Auto Start".

You say "The Stop/Preheat & Start rocker switch on the generator mounted control panel was in the "START" position.  Is the rocker switch a simple on/off, (No, for me and No for Maz) and if it is how did it move to the on position after setting in storage unused for three months?  Or is it a two position momentary switch that should return to a center netural position when released? (What you describe would be a three position switch, spring loaded to Neutral, and the answer is No.  Maz and I both have two position, momentary switches that are spring loaded to the STOP position).  So, if you found your same generator local switch in the "START" position, and the different generations of PowerTech design line up, you have found the problem.  That switch should never stay in the "START" (UP) position, unless it has failed. Such a failure would be unlikely in a coach just sitting in storage.  It would more likely fail during switch manipulation.

You don't say, but I assume you also mean that moving the generator located START/STOP switch to the STOP (down) position didn't stop the generator.  Being a momentary switch and being spring loaded, Maz's and my switches (even though labelled differently from the dash momentary ON/OFF switch), have the same operational function.  Momentary "ON/OFF" starts the preheat and start sequence. Momentary "ON/OFF" again initiates the STOP sequence and resets the Auto Start Module.

Once again, my question from yesterday, did you try placing the dash switch to MAN........Then turn both local generator switches "OFF" (Note: the START/STOP" should always be spring loaded to the STOP [down] position).........Then turn the Main Switch to ON and the generator should remain OFF with dash generator (and on U320's, the bedroom overhead cabinet) controls should be enabled.  Once the Auto Start Module has been triggered, those are the steps that must be followed to shut down a still running generator and reestablish the dash and bedroom controls (if the run time limit has not elapsed, as Brett speaks of).

HTH,
Neal

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Re: Generator Self Starts

Reply #13 – July 14, 2018, 10:38:21 pm

When the same problem happened to me, it ended up being that the Dynagen ES52 control module had failed.  I could smell a faint electrical burning smell when the generator was running but originally couldn't figure out what it was.  Burned up control module.

Link.

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Re: Generator Self Starts

Reply #14 – July 16, 2018, 07:08:23 pm

Again I appreciate all the reply's and suggestions.  Neal thank you for you comprehensive explanation and I agree that it would have avoided confusion had I posted pictures; so I've posted them now.

I contacted Power Tech today and explained to their service tech what had occurred and asked if my genset control panel used a momentary or simple start/stop rocker switch.  He said Foretravel Coaches used many different configurations and he could not know which type switch was used in my coach.  He advised to look at the switch and a that a momentary would have 6 poles and start/stop only 4.  It turns out that I have just a start/stop switch and it works as it should.  So I unplugged shore power and tested the system by 1) master switch on and start/stop switch to stop 2) pushed start on dash control panel and generator started, pushed off and generator stopped 3) set dash switch to auto, turned on inverter and started microwave with a bowl of water inside, in a few minutes generator started; turned off the microwave and after about 5 minutes the generator stopped.

So it seems my generator is working as designed and I do know it's working as it always has.  So why did it start when the dash start/off/auto switch was in off position and the coach on shore power?  The Power Tech Service Tech said (several times) that generators with auto start can and do occasionally start under these conditions.  He further stated the only way to be sure that it doesn't happen is to turn off the master switch at the genset.

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Reply #15 – July 16, 2018, 07:31:06 pm

Mine is different than yours. I have two switches on my dash. One is momentary for generator start and one is for auto start on and off. That explains why I have a momentary at the genset control panel. My generator looks strangely familiar to yours.

Mark

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Re: Generator Self Starts

Reply #16 – July 16, 2018, 11:43:07 pm

Don,
You say  "I entered the coach and found the dash switch (which is a three position, momentary on[START]/off[OFF}/on[AUTO] switch) already in the OFF position, and I was only able to stop the engine by using the generator mounted ON/OFF master switch (which is a simple on/off toggle switch).  Now any time the master switch is moved to the ON position the generator starts again."

And you say "The Stop/Preheat & Start rocker switch located on the generator mounted control panel was in the start position."  You also say ".........that is just a start/stop switch......"(which I assume you mean is an on/off [START/STOP] toggle switch (i.e. - it is not spring returned to a neutral position).

Now that I see the pictures, all of this appears logical and normal.  Ignoring for a moment the unknown cause for a start while the coach was in storage, if the generator had auto started, it would stop when the master switch was moved to OFF and then when the master switch was moved back to ON, it should start each subsequent time, as long as the START switch on the generator was still in the START position.

You  asked "Is the [generator START/STOP] rocker switch a simple on/off, and if it is how did it move to the on [START] position after setting in storage unused for three months? And, as stated above, I think that you confirmed it is an on/off [START/STOP] toggle switch (i.e. - it is not spring returned to a neutral position).

And you then say "So why did the generator start when the dash start/off/auto switch was in off position and the coach on shore power? "

I can't tell you exactly what happened, but here is a hypothetical sequence that would explain it:
If someone were to service the genset oil and filters, they might first start the genset from the dash (to warm the oil up before letting it down).  Then, later, move to the genset, shut the genset down using either the STOP or master switch, do the service and restart the genset from the genset control panel to check for leaks.  That would involve moving the master switch to ON and the START SW. to START.  Usually, one would then let the genset run, check for leaks go inside the coach, load the genset, verify no overheat or other abnormality and when ready to shut down, do it by using the momentary START toggle on the dash.  You can verify this, but I'm pretty sure that the genset will shut off and stay off in this sequence.  The genset will not start again, from the dash, but it will shut down and stay shutdown.

Now if the coach were to be put into storage this way, the START switch on the control panel has been left ON which is keeping the AUTO START function "armed", even if the remote dash switch has not been placed in the AUTO position.  Thus a low voltage condition will start the genset if the AUTO START module is working properly.  Your generation PowerTech may or may not have a run time shutdown and may instead run until its target voltage on the house battery bank is achieved, which would explain a longer run than 4 hours.  MAZ has stated that his 1999 has two switches on the dash, as opposed to one on yours (and our, prior, 1998).  Brett (Amos Harrison) also has a 1999 and has the 4 hour run time limiter, so these things were changed between the 1998 and 1999 years (among many other things).

Which brings me to a question:  You say "I unplugged shore power and tested the system by 1) master switch on and start/stop switch to stop 2) pushed start on dash control panel and generator started, pushed off and generator stopped 3) set dash switch to auto, turned on inverter and started microwave with a bowl of water inside, in a few minutes generator started; turned off the microwave and after about 5 minutes the generator stopped."

My question is "Are your house batteries possibly aged?"  My house batteries would generally tolerate much more than a few minutes of microwave run time without reaching the12.2 Vdc, and decreasing, state that should trigger the AUTO START of the generator.  And if an AUTO START were to be triggered, I would expect the batteries to require much, much longer than 5 minutes to come back up.  The point being that there appears to be a very high resistance somewhere, either in cables/bolted connections/batteries that are showing their age/etc.. 

I believe that your system may have done just what it was designed to do, after a short interruption of shore power.  And now that I have a better understanding of your switches, I'm even more convinced that BOTH of your genset switches must be placed in the "off "positions (STOP and OFF, actually), then the Master Switch has to be turned back to ON before the AUTO START module is reset to the OFF condition (waiting for the dash switch to be moved to AUTO) and remote (START/STOP) control is enabled back on the dash.

HTH,
Neal

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