Call for help

Topic: Call for help (Read 3245 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Call for help

Reply #50 – October 01, 2018, 12:58:46 am

Taking it all into account, I cannot imagine a better choice than my 2003 Foretravel coach. All makes and models have issues, but I'll take FT over the others.

I'm happy with a coach that was built when C.M.Fore would opt for the best systems available, regardless of cost. I'm happy with a coach where factory records and tech advice are still available, with no intervening lapses due to bankrupts. Although FT never had the engineering staff of a Genrral Motors, or even Prevost, they still came up with industry leading and rarely copied mechanicals, including outboard air bags, disk brakes all around, and the Allison retarder.

I have a friend with a 2008 Monaco. He brags about the eight air bags (copied from FT) and air leveling. But rarely comments on how much time it is in for repair, about the discontinuity in factory support, and the tiny water and waste tanks and minuscule battery tank. And he is still dealing with design flaws, mostly with getting heat out of the engine compartment.

Re: Call for help

Reply #51 – October 01, 2018, 07:29:35 am

I feel your pain.
The truth is, these old beasts have many systems, with lots of interlocking parts that fail. Its a given that they will. Expect it to.
The other issue is, past owners messed with these systems and now your dealing with that.
Best thing is to know your system over time and plan for how it can be improved. Know that using city pressure water is asking for trouble. Fill your tank and use it from there.
Seriously, water coming from the overflow is no big deal, although I am sure it was when you found it. Easy to fix.
But some of these systems can be very expensive to repair. They are quite complicated although not the move complicated out there. Its part of the joy/pain of ownership. Same as when I had a sailboat. Can get quite expensive. Stay on top of it if you can. Keep a good attitude about it. Know that on older coaches it can cost a bit to keep it up.
Bob

Re: Call for help

Reply #52 – October 01, 2018, 08:03:28 am

Murphy's Law applies to anything, even these fantastic coaches.
Try fixing an "ultralite" labeled trailer sometime. Know why it is labeled"ultralite"? Because quality was skimped on almost everything except bling in order to reduce weight.
Take the Winnebago tour sometime and see how the wood sides are fastened in place.
Glue. Didn't see any metal framework for the sides or roof.
Their philosophy? Must be designed to flex when going down the road.
Foretravel frames are rigid. At least the Foretravel frames provide some protection for you and your loved one(s).
When we bought our '89 Foretravel GV there was a 1990 Winnebago class A on the same lot. About same length. The Winnebago gas coach sold for $4,000. Our coach was $19,500. We bought the GV. Quality in design & workmanship & materials last.
All the appliances are pretty much the same.
Go ahead and repair things on your coach and the value stays high. Repair SOB and the value still goes down quickly. Why? Because the design, quality, and workmanship start showing their shortcomings and flaws. The cheap fabric shreds. The color and style of the interior become quickly outdated. The "bling" that got the coach sold has "blung".
Go ahead, tour some of the other brands of the same year as your coach. Feel the fabrics, lean on the walls, try the drawers and closet doors. Then try to imagine spending all your time in one of those coaches. You will still encounter problems but have to live with an inferior product.
Enough rant. Done.

Re: Call for help

Reply #53 – October 01, 2018, 09:27:46 am

I feel better putting coach bucks into my 1998 FT then having to deal with a new SOB that has to be in the shop for warranty work. The down side to paying out for repairs is being ripped off by certain service companies.
I would like to see the forum members to rate the service they receive. I will start with FT B+, MOT B+, Bern'd F.

Re: Call for help

Reply #54 – October 01, 2018, 09:52:28 am

Quote from: wolfe10 – October 01, 2018, 09:20:21 am

Bigdog,

Easy for you to do:

Copy and paste your "off topic" post into a new post/new thread.

Then go back and delete your "off topic" post.

If problem deleting, just PM me and I can do it.

Did as you suggested. But only that one post went over to the new area. What of the posts after where the off topic stuff started?

Re: Call for help

Reply #55 – October 01, 2018, 10:33:05 am

Quote from: bigdog – October 01, 2018, 09:52:28 am

Did as you suggested. But only that one post went over to the new area. What of the posts after where the off topic stuff started?

Sorry, not possible to move individual posts from one thread to another.

So, I deleted some of the "way off topic" posts.

Please go here to comment on "Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help":

Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

And, let's stick with the original topic on this one.

Thanks.

Re: Call for help

Reply #56 – October 01, 2018, 04:29:33 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – October 01, 2018, 10:33:05 am

Sorry, not possible to move individual posts from one thread to another.

So, I deleted some of the "way off topic" posts.

Please go here to comment on "Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help":

Design flaw or did FT not care. Split from 'call for help'

And, let's stick with the original topic on this one.

Thanks.

Thanks Brett

Re: Call for help

Reply #57 – October 02, 2018, 07:22:32 am

A critical factor in all our discussions about cost versus quality is in the owner's perspective. If you bought your coach for $450K or $750K, a $10,000 repair may feel uncomfortable but not impoverished. But if you bought a coach that was $450K new, but you paid $45k 20 years later, that same $10,000 repair looks immense. Nevertheless, that $450K coach is made up of components that cost far more in today's prices.

Re: Call for help

Reply #58 – October 02, 2018, 07:53:04 am

When forum members talk about Foretravels being better built than SOBs, are they talking about the bulkheads that rust and break loose from the other chassis parts, the delaminated slides, the rear caps that crack at the seams, the endless air operated component failures, the roof that rots under the pad by the ladder, the slide bladder failures? Or are they talking about the leather seating, the tile floors, the corian counter tops, etc. I think that some forum members are confusing build quality with quality materials and components. Foretravels are fine machines, right up there with Newels and Prevosts. But build quality is overstated. And so is the maintenance received at Foretravel.

Re: Call for help

Reply #59 – October 02, 2018, 08:43:30 am

Our coach came with blue shag carpeting and parquet flooring in the kitchen area. Even the bathroom had shag carpet!! The carpet was one piece that went up to and then around the toilet. Apparently the toilet was already in place so the carpet was split to go around the toilet and then the installer "very nicely" held the carpet up to the back wall (that comes down to about even with the back of the toilet) and then stapled it in place. Guess no one thought about putting a removable panel there? Nothing to work on behind that carpet. Rocket was able to get between the two halves of the carpet and then go exploring in the cabinets and passageways. Had one hell of a time getting him out. Even now he tries to get in the bathroom cabinet in order to continue his exploration.
When we removed the carpet I made a panel that mounts behind the toilet. Rocket was very unhappy about that.

Re: Call for help

Reply #60 – October 02, 2018, 09:41:16 am

ITG , As far as being better built than the SOB's your points are of course valid as far as Foretravel built versus theirs being perfect in hindsight.

As far as I know all the current rv's other than busses and Newell's have the carpeting under the cabinets. Stops the squeaks. Allows for major dimensional mis alignments during production to not be as visible as the cabinets only have to match the interior height at the ceiling not the floor. Less expensive coaches add a gimp molding at the ceiling to cover the gaps there plus are built over carpet.

Much safer inside a Foretravel welded on all four sides tubing steel frame that is reinforced by vacuum bagged inner and outer layers versus loose hung aluminum skins with loose fiberglass batten between non welded aluminum framing. Watch the Cornerstone "how it's made" type video.

In case Foretravel was wrong about the structure the sub assemblies are bolted together not welded one piece.

As has happened the sub assemblies can and have been unbolted from each other and repaired and reinstalled. Can you imagine how you would fix any damage or rusting on a welded one piece structure.

Almost all coaches had the air and fuel lines bundled against the inside of one frame rail on chassis coaches.

Non replaceable. Abandon in place. Try to run a new fuel system through the compartments.

Wooden floors. Two pieces of 5/8" chipboard. Tar paper in between. Versus a vacuum bonded steel framed foam insulated floor structure.

Plumbing and electrical line, heater hoses, fuel lines and such are in the "run" under the floor accessible from the compartments by dropping down the galvanized covers.

Foretravel almost went out of business by not building slides as they knew the structural strength would be problematic by poking the large holes needed through their stressed structure sidewall with the reinforcing angle pieces visible in the walls on moist cool days.

Plus they and all the older bonded wall coaches refused to paint the body in dark colors over large areas.

Makes the sides come apart unless you do not laminate them.

All the older high line coaches were pastel painted for increased reliability and less heat gain.

If you paint it it's more damageable if tree branches and such scrape the sides. Like a rv might run across versus a painted tender metal skin "park" model.

Customers demanded slides and paint. The entire industry has issues because of both.

Most coaches do not have bladder seals. Just a flange seal. How many coaches has everyone seen that have slide rooms not flush with their body shells? Lots.

Most coaches do not have roof ladders. You really would not want to walk on most SOB's soft roofs.

My point is the customers demanded features and paint jobs that hurt the reliability and temp controls inherent in the old unihomes and unicoaches.

Plus front doors. All the older coaches had mid entries for a reason.

Co pilot area is not as nice to ride or use with front doors. Long walk in the coach to get the grandkids pictures.

Front corner awning arms can make a wind noise.

On top of all this Foretravel is very close to perfect on weight distribution. Most SOB's are way off left to right. Coach goes through dips crooked. One side drops more than the other. Same shocks both sides.

As was stated by the 08 Monaco owner most rv's have wiring issues we do not have. Lots of numbered wires. Lots of green ground wires. No flickering lights when others are turned on or off.

Look in a Monaco product. The wooden cabinet doors wood is set vertical inside the frames and have large shading differences of the wood color in the same door. Versus horizontal closely matched in color wood.

Foretravel cabinet pieces were machined not sanded. Much tighter dimensional tolerances. Anyone had a cabinet come apart?

Our 97 was almost abandoned out of doors for many years in Pheonix when a former owner ran out of money.

No damage other than window seals. Do not try this with most .sob's.

Notice the lack of formaldehyde odors in your coach? Walk into a closed up in a hot area SOB. Most will make your eyes water from the chemicals in the construction.

How many other 20 to 30 year old rv's are still around?

Re: Call for help

Reply #61 – October 02, 2018, 10:09:01 am

Quote from: Caflashbob – October 02, 2018, 09:41:16 am

How many other 20 to 30 year old rv's are still around?

As of today, RV trader has over 900 other Class A rv's 20 years old or older advertised.

Re: Call for help

Reply #62 – October 02, 2018, 08:23:18 pm

Reply #58 – 12 hours ago
"When forum members talk about Foretravels being better built than SOB's" Given time, budget, and luck I am not saying you cannot find a better RV. I am saying in my many years around the wholesale and retail RV industry FT is an amazingly good buy. I knew the design criteria before I bought one, since last years purchase, as I update some things and perform routine maintenance, I continually come across design criteria that exceed my expectations. As Ca Bob stated, take a look at the industry, no forum members are with carefree coaches, some may experience more than a fair share of issues. Given the choices, I am so glad someone took care of my FT for the years before me. Also, just to mention the previous owner of mine, when asked to please tell me what other issues he had in the two years he owned it, and what he did as far as maintenance, he truthfully told me none. I again said, no, I own it now, what issues. He said none. Am I impressed by FT, absolutely. Do I sympathize with those having major issues, yes. I am thankful to "all" those that participate in the forum, yes I do. Their issues today can be ours tomorrow.

Re: Call for help

Reply #63 – October 03, 2018, 12:00:00 am

Quote from: ltg – October 02, 2018, 10:09:01 am

As of today, RV trader has over 900 other Class A rv's 20 years old or older advertised.

Did a search on RV trader
1988 to 1998 class A diesel pusher 38-42 feet and found 95 matches. 1 is a foretravel. All are I guarantee old coaches with problems, either now or shortly waiting to spring up on you after you buy ( you buy you buy!!) I plugged those parameters in because thats what we are talking about, and to go over 1998 would have to do a different search. Average price is $41K. Not to many there I would want. The prevost's are over $100K and look like someones idea of Las Vegas in a coach to me... although the 1994 liberty prevost is nice. But at $99K over priced imo. I got pretty much the same coach for a lot less. Sure it needs stuff. Ongoing maintenance and deferred maintenance too. In the end I will probably have close to 100K in but it will be a good coach to last me hopefully 10 years and many 100000 of miles. Don't really know what a new 40 foot foretravel costs. Don't care. I know that in 1999 mine cost 450K plus tax and other stuff. I paid just over 10% of that and will be in for around 25% of it.
If I had went with a sailboat, same thing. Buy new and get hosed, or go used and pay up for upgrades and to fix all the dumb mistakes the po's did. Same/same. Technomadia recently said that they though a boat was more expensive than their old bus conversion. Maybe. But I doubt that. If they had gone with a reasonably sized sailboat costs would have been less. But still you will pay out the nose. You might think its great when you buy it, but pretty soon shit happens. Some of those things can get pretty expensive like a new engine, new sails, mast, rigging... all of it will be needing replacement after some years, just like our coaches. Only instead of a mast, you have tires. Instead of a 50 hp engine you have a 450 hp. (more bucks yea!!) The sun tears each of them up , but try parking a sailboat in the shade. yeah right, that's called night. Over time everything on deck will get eaten up by salt, wind, rain and sun. Same as our coaches, except you can put a coach in the shade.
I really hope my costs stay lower... but its good to know that if my $15K aqua hot goes on the blink, I can repair it.
Most everything else if fixable. I might paint it one day, or save that money for the major upgrades that I hope to never have, like a new transmission or engine....
Its all a trade off. You can just stay home and travel with a airplane. Now that would be roughly 8-12 cents per mile, each. But when you get there, figure on hotels, 100-300 per night, eating out.... etc. So if your traveling in the US, Mexico and Canada, the RV is a pretty cost effective why to do that, PROVIDED you do it alot. If its once a year and you let the thing sit the rest of the time, its gonna cost you. As they say, the best way to keep these babies working good, it to use them.
I get that when first thinking about these, its easy to figure that it won't cost much, but then reality sets in. I had a similar feeling when I brought it home. Barely fit in the driveway. Found issues that I wasn't sure how to fix or address. And the list multiplied as the months went by. Now my front AC unit stopped working. Change out perfectly good fuel hose, except it wasn't fuel hose. Bose stereo quit working, other stuff too. Its all good man. Was going to replace the ac anyway. The bose was going out the window too.
The hose pissed me off a bit, but roll with it. New shocks needed. I have a 10K list of things to do this winter. All planned. All needed. Coach will be better because of it.
Bob

Re: Call for help

Reply #64 – October 03, 2018, 01:18:37 am

Ever consider just how many parts there are in a coach? How many components that are dependent on each other?
And as owners we expect everything to work 100% for years?
Murphy doesn't exist?
Things don't wear out?
Things don't come loose?
Stuff doesn't break?
We don't neglect or unintentionally maintain something?
A previous owner wasn't savvy about his/your coach so now somebody has to "Pay The Piper". And it is the subsequent owners.

Re: Call for help

Reply #65 – October 03, 2018, 01:19:26 am

Love ir

Re: Call for help

Reply #66 – October 03, 2018, 01:28:28 am

I think this thread has gone way off course from my original post. Which ended up being a sticky fill valve.

That's why I started a new thread on the basic design of the wet bay system being over the uncoated bulkhead structure.

Design flaw?

Re: Call for help

Reply #67 – October 03, 2018, 12:53:42 pm

Quote from: bigdog – October 03, 2018, 01:28:28 am

I think this thread has gone way off course from my original post.

I was talking with the owner of our Park about your problems with the coach. He was so moved, he told me to offer you a overnight site, FOR FREE!

Re: Call for help

Reply #68 – October 03, 2018, 03:31:42 pm

Wow,
What a generous guy!

Re: Call for help

Reply #69 – October 03, 2018, 09:33:14 pm

Quote from: mike leary – October 03, 2018, 12:53:42 pm

I was talking with the owner of our Park about your problems with the coach. He was so moved, he told me to offer you a overnight site, FOR FREE!

Now all I need to do is haul my carcass down there and take him up on his very generous offer. Although I would pay him for all the nights we stayed. That's his livelihood and I would feel bad for not paying.

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