storage lot GFCI outlet trips; dead house batteries

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storage lot GFCI outlet trips; dead house batteries

October 11, 2018, 05:09:21 pm

Left town for a few days with my rv plugged in to 110v GFCI outlet to maintain batteries. Upon my return, found the gfci had tripped and as a result the house batteries depleted to ~3.6v. I have an onboard invertor/charger with a battery monitor. Reset the GFCI and left it to recharge the batteries; hope there was no irreversible damage to them.
What is causing the outlet to trip? The agent at the storage facility stated anything higher than 20 amps would do it. What is it in the coach that would draw 20 amps while parked there? and what can I do to avoid the gfci tripping like that? Shall I disconnect my house batteries while away? then what if I need the aquahot to heat the bays during cold spells?

Re: storage lot GFCI outlet trips; dead house batteries

Reply #1 – October 11, 2018, 05:31:28 pm

If too many amps, the BREAKER would trip-- not the GFI.

I would be surprised if your inverter/charger would even start/try to charge completely discharged batteries. In most cases you would need to get them up some with a temporary "stupid" charger.

Also, make sure your inverter/charger is set to power save/power share of 5 or 10 amps (that is amps of 120 VAC) so you don't trip the breaker when you do get things going.

Suspect you do have a ground fault in the coach. Refrigerator heating element is a good place to start.

Re: storage lot GFCI outlet trips; dead house batteries

Reply #2 – October 11, 2018, 05:39:10 pm

thx Brett; how do I go about performing tests for a ground fault? Will proceed to charge the batteries on a separate charger.

Re: storage lot GFCI outlet trips; dead house batteries

Reply #3 – October 11, 2018, 06:10:25 pm

First, verify that the outlet is correctly wired. On a 15 amp outlet, the long straight is ground, the short one the hot.

If OK, turn off the main breaker in the coach 120 VAC box to see if the GFI trips. If not, turn off all breakers and turn on the main breaker.

Start turning on individual breakers one at a time until you find the culprit. Be aware that the offending appliance may have to be on for it to trip the GFI.

Re: storage lot GFCI outlet trips; dead house batteries

Reply #4 – October 11, 2018, 06:18:22 pm

I had a optional "hot rod" electric element on our water heater trip the GFI. A rainstorm allowed just enough water to drain on the outside of the water heater and that was the cause. I looked for an hour before finding it.

You may have to start the main engine and let the alternator try and pump some juice into the house batteries utilizing the isolator and at a fast idle of perhaps 1000 RPM. Sometimes it takes a long time to restore batteries with a plug in charger. Using a pulse regeneration charger is also a good way to restore dead batteries. The high frequencies cause the sulfate coating to flake off and fall to the bottom of the case.

Pierce

Re: storage lot GFCI outlet trips; dead house batteries

Reply #5 – October 11, 2018, 08:15:09 pm

I owned an Ace Hardware store for 15 years and have seen GFI failures dozens of times. Sometimes they just seem to get weak and trip. Does not take much. If it were me (providing you have had no electrical issues in the coach that you have not solved prior), to replace that GFI outlet with a standard 15 amp duplex receptacle. If something serious happens you should trip the breaker for protection. When you give up your storage site just re-install their old GFI.

PS Lots of folks have their freezers in the garage plugged into the GFI in the garage. Seen more than one lose everything in them. First they know about it is when defrost water shows up on the garage floor.

Re: storage lot GFCI outlet trips; dead house batteries

Reply #6 – October 12, 2018, 12:36:52 am

Quote from: Fiddler – October 11, 2018, 05:39:10 pm

...............how do I go about performing tests for a ground fault? ...................

Fiddler,
As others have noted, OUTLET GFCI's don't provide overcurrent protection. They provide personnel shock hazard protection, as governed by NEC. Breaker panel GFCI's are more sophisticated in design and can provide both overcurrent and ground current protection.

With regard to Code: GFCI receptacles have been required in houses ever since 1971. But originally they were only required on the exterior of a house and within six feet of swimming pool equipment. Over the years the National Electrical Code (NEC) has gradually changed and GFCI receptacles have been required in more and more locations such as bathrooms, garages, outdoor spas, hot tubs, boathouses, kitchens, bathroom spa tubs, unfinished basements, crawlspaces, wet bars, kitchen dishwashers, laundry areas, etc. Some local codes may be different, usually being more stringent than the above nationwide general thumb rules. One has to check with the local building department to know the exact local code requirements.

By definition:
A GFCI device detects equal to or more than 5 milliamps (5/1000's) of an ampere difference in current between a circuit's hot leg current and its return (neutral) leg current and interrupts that circuit, assuming that the difference in current is due to a ground fault, which is hazardous to human life. Be aware that there are Motor load GFCI's and Resistive load GFCI's, and the two are not interchangeable. The inexpensive resistive load GFCI's are easily "fooled" by the start and run capacitors in motors. Storage outfits should always install the more sophisticated "motor load" GFCI's, whose design includes filters that eliminate the capacitive start, capacitive run characteristics of some motors, but still react immediately to true ground faults. Of course, to save money or because the electrician doesn't understand RV's, they don't spend the extra dollars. Hence we have the problems. But now you know better - right?

So how do you find a fault when a storage bldg. supplies you with only a GFCI outlet (which they have every legal right to do when local code requires them to do so)? And think about the consequences if your ground faulting coach electrocutes someone (or starts a fire) and the building burns down because you illegally changed the outlet to a non-GFCI outlet. Also, if a circuit is arcing, it may not have enough current to trip the load center circuit breaker and it may not be unbalanced to the degree that it trips a GFCI, but it may well shower enough sparks and molten metal to start a fire. So that is why Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's) are now being added to the NEC.

But, back on the task at hand of finding a ground fault. The ground fault will be one of only two kinds of fault:

1. Hot leg to ground fault
2. Neutral leg to ground fault

To find a (Hot leg to ground fault), Inverter OFF and on your main panel, leave the Main coach breaker panel incoming breaker closed, but open all of the Main coach breaker panel load breakers.
With a helper stationed at the supplying GFCI outlet, reset the GFCI outlet (Note 1) and then (as Brett has already detailed) close the Main coach breaker panel breakers one by one (all connected loads must be operated as each load breaker is closed) until you find the load breaker that trips the GFCI supply outlet. If one load breaker causes a trip of the GFCI, then you may have to determine which of several loads wired or plugged into that circuit is the culprit. If NONE of the coach load breakers trips the GFCI, then the GFCI fault is not on the HOT legs of the Main Panel to ground.

For a (Neutral leg to ground) fault, the procedure is little more complex and if you aren't comfortable with working inside electrical panels, seek out an electrician. To find the culprit, with Inverter off and with the Main Panel breaker closed and all of the Main coach breaker panel load breakers closed, one must remove a white (neutral) load return wire from the panel's internal neutral common bus bar, one at a time and have your helper try to reset the tripped GFCI supply outlet. If the GFCI will not reset, then the ground fault still exists, and that wire (load circuit) is not the faulted circuit. Repeat the process, lifting each white (neutral) return wire, one at a time until the lifted wire is found that will allow the GFCI to be reset. Once again, there may be several loads on that circuit, but the ground fault has been narrowed down to just a few potential load paths that can now be more easily evaluated/isolated/repaired.

I know that others will be tempted to say that, for motorhomes, GFCI's stacked downstream of GFCI's won't work or Inverter/chargers will often trip GFCI's, just cheat on the NEC and install a non-compliant outlet, but in any cases that I have personally chased down, it has always been one of three things:

A GFCI that had simply become overly sensitive with age, which is very common.

A real ground fault that was causing the GFCI to trip; resistance heating elements, as has already been pointed out, being a common offender.

A motor load GFCI that had been erroneously replaced by a resistive load GFCI.

[/list]

HTH,
Neal

Note 1: If the GFCI won't reset, with all Main Panel circuit breakers open including the Main, the ground fault will be one of two places:

In the power cord/cord reel/ or the wires from the cord reel to the main breaker panel

Or in the (Neutral leg to ground) side of the Main Breaker Panel

[/list]

Re: storage lot GFCI outlet trips; dead house batteries

Reply #7 – October 12, 2018, 07:04:50 am

Was the gfi where you plugged into or was it at another location?

As stated above the gfi trips on 5 milliamps. There could be more then one outlet on this gfi that are down stream of it. The gfi looks for a total of 5 milliamps. There could be a number of items that are plugged into this circuit and they all may have a little leakage but together they are at the 5 milliamps or larger.

It could be your coach has only a 1-4 milliamp leakage but something else is getting the total number higher.

An outlet being wet or moisture (from dew) being on the outlet(s) can be enough to cause the gfi to trip.

While we are are talking GFI's any new RV outlet or part that is done during or after 2017 will have to have the 30 & 50 amp outlets gfi protected. I have talked to a campground owner that had to put them in few years ago since their local law required it and he said they are having all kinds of problems with them and the customers are getting mad at them because they did not have problems at other campgrounds.

Re: storage lot GFCI outlet trips; dead house batteries

Reply #8 – October 12, 2018, 08:20:51 am

I store my coach under cover at a storage facility that provides 110v power up to 15 amps. Its enough to keep my fridge plugged in. It is a GFI breaker. However in Florida with sometimes heavy humidity and rain the moisture trips the breaker. I check mine once a week. Did you have a recent storm or lighting that may have tripped the breaker?

Re: storage lot GFCI outlet trips; dead house batteries

Reply #9 – October 12, 2018, 08:39:52 am

Mention of moisture or dew tripping a GFC brings up my memory of last fall in Texas at Seawind RV resort. I washed the coach and when I went inside we didn't have any 120V. Turned out that the outlet on the side of the coach where I had our outside rope lights plugged in, got wet and tripped the GFC in the bathroom. Reset it and problem solved!
Moisture, dew, or a dumbass with a hose can cause a tripping of your protective GFC or GFCI.

Re: storage lot GFCI outlet trips; dead house batteries

Reply #10 – October 12, 2018, 08:55:58 am

Fiddler,
Where are you located? It is not recommended that the A-H be left on electric only for freeze protection. It is much better that both electric and diesel be on. It will run on electric until it can not keep up, then diesel will be used. It your coach is stored inside, then you need to provide exhaust venting to the outdoors.

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storage lot GFCI outlet trips; dead house batteries

October 11, 2018, 05:09:21 pm

Re: storage lot GFCI outlet trips; dead house batteries

Reply #1 – October 11, 2018, 05:31:28 pm

Re: storage lot GFCI outlet trips; dead house batteries

Reply #2 – October 11, 2018, 05:39:10 pm

Re: storage lot GFCI outlet trips; dead house batteries

Reply #3 – October 11, 2018, 06:10:25 pm

Re: storage lot GFCI outlet trips; dead house batteries

Reply #4 – October 11, 2018, 06:18:22 pm

Re: storage lot GFCI outlet trips; dead house batteries

Reply #5 – October 11, 2018, 08:15:09 pm

Re: storage lot GFCI outlet trips; dead house batteries

Reply #6 – October 12, 2018, 12:36:52 am

Re: storage lot GFCI outlet trips; dead house batteries

Reply #7 – October 12, 2018, 07:04:50 am

Re: storage lot GFCI outlet trips; dead house batteries

Reply #8 – October 12, 2018, 08:20:51 am

Re: storage lot GFCI outlet trips; dead house batteries

Reply #9 – October 12, 2018, 08:39:52 am

Re: storage lot GFCI outlet trips; dead house batteries

Reply #10 – October 12, 2018, 08:55:58 am

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