SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE

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SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

October 23, 2018, 09:53:57 pm

I had some questions about my solar install and battery update, I thought I would post some pictures.

I still have wiring to do and 2 panels to mount.
I used 2x3" aluminum beams to mount the panels, glued down with 3m 5200 for the full lengths of the runs. The edges will all be caulked with 3m 4000.
You will see 5gal buckets in the pictures. I span the beams after gluing and place the buckets filled with water on top of the beams resting on 2x6 planks to spread the weight while the glue cured (7 days). I still have two spots were the other 2 panels will sit where the glue is curing.
The panels are mounted on one side with hinges so they will all tilt if needed. The other side will also use hinges to hold down the panels, the pins will be removed. If I ever came up with a scenario were I had to tilt the other way I could ( with some disassembly) tilt the opposite direction by reinstalling the pins and removing the opposite side pins . I don't ever see that happening, but who knows. The panels can always just remain flat or a combination of tilted or flat.
The row of 3 (300 watt) panels (drivers side) are tied together as a unit. They will tilt together. I plan on using a 12v remote control electric scissor jack rated at 3000# to lift the unit. I can lift them by hand but its heavy. The unit will tilt all the way forward so I can lift it and set it vertical +for full roof access. The jack will give me about 17" of lift.
The panels on the passenger side also lift toward the drivers side. 2 will be tied together and the front panel (forward of the front A/C unit) will tilt by itself. The forward panel is a 360watt unit. The 2 behind it comprise (1) 300 watt unit and a 360watt unit .
The panels on the passenger side will lift using a pole from the ground.
The (2) 360watt panels will be in parallel using there own Victron controller. The (4) 300 watt panels will use there own Victron controller. A Victron Color Monitor will monitor the system.

The batteries: (10) L16 Lifeline AGM - 6v. 400 amp hrs@20%.
They rest on a 2 1/2" thick Engineered/ laminated beam that runs the full width of the coach. The beam is "helped" with 1/2" rod that is attached under the beam and on top the rods go through the coach floor where nuts are used to tighten up the rods so the weight of the batteries are distributed between the lower frame and the above coach floor/frame. I have already done both the front and rear bulkheads.

Don't freak out when you look at the battery cables that are hanging, they are mock ups made out of yarn. After I confirm that the mock up wiring is proper and all at the same lengths, I will make up the real stuff with 4/0 marine cable.

If you see my roof A/C shrouds cut up its because they are. I trimmed the shrouds to allow for the panel placements. I will remove them and fiberglass the cut areas. I replaced the rear A/C unit this summer, I did not want to build around the old A/C units and then find the A/C units would not fit if I needed to replace them. The front A/C is the same as the rear (Atwood 15000btu)replaced last year.

I also have a Victron battery isolator to install.

I sister-ed in a second Romex 6/2 cable to run from the breaker panel and the Victron 3000 inverter/charger. It will allow the Victron to boost the 50amp inverter power if the load requires it. A 70 amp breaker will replace the current 50 amp breaker from the inverter circuit. I will probably run the front A/C breaker to the inverter circuit so I could run the front A/C off the batteries. I also plan to upgrade my alternator to a 240amp unit.

Electronics is NOT my strong point. I would have gladly paid to have this work done, but no electricians that I could find in the Chicago area had any idea of how to do a RV. The few I found that were interested in doing the work sent a signal to me that I could screw this up myself just as well as paying somebody to screw it up. I trudge on myself at a slower that snail pace.

Re: SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

Reply #1 – October 23, 2018, 10:11:14 pm

Nice setup. Your front axle weight going to be okay? On my 99 320, wanted to run six 8d's, but that would have overloaded the front axle.

Re: SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

Reply #2 – October 23, 2018, 11:27:03 pm

Super slick installation. Very clean. Looks like the new gold standard to me.

P

Re: SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

Reply #3 – October 24, 2018, 01:28:07 am

What is the total capacity for:

- Solar Watts
- Weight of solar panels
- Battery kilowatt hours
- Weight of batteries

Looks like a fun project.

Re: SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

Reply #4 – October 24, 2018, 02:51:09 am

Quote from: Tim – October 24, 2018, 01:28:07 am

What is the total capacity for:

- Solar Watts
- Weight of solar panels
- Battery kilowatt hours
- Weight of batteries

Looks like a fun project.

Total Solar wattage from (6) 36v panels = 1920 watts
About 300# for the 6 panels +about 100# in structure
total at 6v = 4000ah@20%
12v = 2000ah@20%
12v@50% capacity = 1000ah@20%
Batteries are about 100#each = 1000#
less than $6000 for the batteries.
I, at no moment found this project to be fun!

I know where you are going,
I would have gone lithium but NOT for twice the money for batteries. I live in Chicago, a cold climate in winter and a Hot climate in summer. The RV sits all winter outdoor, plugged in. I'm not sold on the fail proof part of lithium at this point of time, I'm not ready to gamble on a electrical mishap or failure that could destroy a valuable lithium battery pack. I could recover from a battery catastrophe much easier with the AGM, maybe not to the level I have now, but to a usable level. I also have to figure in the value of my coach, if I was going to spend an amount that comes close or over the value of the coach on a solar/battery upgrade I would buy a newer RV to invest in. At 67 years of age I'm sure this system will outlast me, when I'm done with RV travel I will give the coach to my son to enjoy and pump money into.
I would love to have saved the weight, but I'm not concerned about the additional weight.
The storage bay the batteries are in are behind the fuel tank. about midway on the coach. My tires are load range H so I feel they won't have a problem.
The AGM batteries have a 50% safe discharge rate with the lithium its 35%, advantage lithium by 15%. Too many people erroneously rate the lithium at a 100% discharge rate.
I'm NOT a electrical engineer, this is already above my pay grade, Lithium would have been beyond my comfort zone.

Re: SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

Reply #5 – October 24, 2018, 08:36:50 am

Impressive engineering project, Lon! It amazes me what kind of things can be accomplished while a coach sits in one's driveway. I like your ideas of mocking up the battery cables with rope, and partially suspending the battery rack from the overhead support beams - very clever. Hope you can get the "topside" work done before your weather turns nasty. Please keep us apprised of your progress with more great photo reports.

Re: SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

Reply #6 – October 24, 2018, 09:20:11 am

Lon, looks good. It will be interesting to see how the tilting mechanism works. Your panels (mine too) are full sized commercial panels which seem to be a standard size. Doing the layout was sort of a puzzle with all of the other suff on the roof. Looks like you figured that out. I like the idea of the ropes to mock up cables. The shortest ones seemed to be the toughest ones to get the length just right. You want a bit of extra length for flex not not too much. If your cable ends need to have a 90° turn from one end to the other mark the cables and lugs and crimp them on with a 90° offset. This helps a lot where cables are 3 ft or less. It is pretty hard to twist those short big cables. Are you going to make your own cables?

Re: SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

Reply #7 – October 24, 2018, 10:21:47 am

You are so close to being able to automate those panels....couple actuators, a remote control.....

Re: SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

Reply #8 – October 24, 2018, 02:53:10 pm

All cabling needs to be the same length AFAIK. The inner batteries on the string should have curled up cables. Then to a common bus bar or whatever. Otherwise the end batteries are doing the work more, regular battery rotation and testing would be needed more often if the cabling varies. Marine tinned cabling is preferred. I have seen bigger size same gauge wiring around, American wire gage? 15/16Th? stuff

You have done the rest top notch. Really like the Lifelines as they charge 20% faster and require lower voltage during all phases and can be equalized if any reduction in capacity is measured.

Most batteries require either 1/5th capacity or 1/20. Too low of a charging rate does not desulfate the plates correctly as far as what lifeline says.

Probably why Foretravel sized their alternators to be 1/5 C compared to the battery bank capacity. New IH-45's coaches with 6 8g8d's have a 345 amp alternator.

You may need much more alternator to charge your bank correctly.

Everything is in the details at this point.

Good thing with the Lifelines is if a capacity reduction from short cycling is noted they can be restored. Non lifeline agm's cannot be equalized..

You might need to restore a partial string to get enough amps to do it at some future time,,

My understanding is that after 15-20 cycles the batteries have reached their full capacity. Maybe measure them then?

My thoughts were if I had that large a capacity system that 2 alternators might be needed. In your case equalization is available instead.

Gels or Lifelines are the top of the line.

The Victron did not show a reduced voltage AGM setting so a flooded cell profile might be more correct. .2 volts less than normal agm's

See the lifeline tech sheet to double check my info I read.

Re: SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

Reply #9 – October 24, 2018, 04:33:12 pm

Quote from: Caflashbob – October 24, 2018, 02:53:10 pm

The Victron did not show a reduced voltage AGM setting so a flooded cell profile might be more correct. .2 volts less than normal agm's

I can set my Victron invertor/charger to any charge voltage setting I want via VE Power setup software. We had this discussion before as I played with the settings to find what I liked best. (via VE Power setup, then via VE Configure software to set whatever charge voltage is desired)
Victron Invertor/BMV owners - compare software settings

What I have found is:
Page 19. http://2cw8eb1vmmgg3g5i7jzt6upo.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/6-0101-Rev-E-Lifeline-Technical-Manual.pdf

Lifeline recommendations:
Degrees Fahrenheit/float:
70: 13.39; (+/- .1 ) 13.29 - 13.49 volts float
77: 13.30; (+/- .1 ) 13.20 - 13.40 volts float
80: 13.25; (+/- .1 ) 13.15 - 13.35 volts float

Degrees Fahrenheit/absorb:
70: 14.41 (+/- .1 ) volts abs 14.31 - 14.51
77: 14.30 (+/- .1 ) volts abs 14.20 - 14.40
80: 14.27 (+/- .1 ) volts abs 14.17 - 14.37

Also see http://www.optimabatteries.nl/upl_files/File/lifeline%20owner%20manual.pdf
14.20 - 14.40 volts absorption 13.2 - 13.4 volts float

Re: SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

Reply #10 – October 24, 2018, 04:58:41 pm

Dan just wondering if the panel allows the user to alter the voltage drop from float to turning on the adsorption charge from the default 80%.

My ME-RC does not. Had to buy a ME-ARC be able to program the SOC voltage drop that the charger senses to turn in the charger, can be up to 99% SOC instead of the 80%.

Not a very user friendly control panel on the ARC

For a large system the default 80% would cycle the batteries a lot.

Std voltage is 14.4 and float at 13.8. Lifeline and gels need 14.2 and 13.6.

Plus no lifeline equalization profile built in.

Re: SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

Reply #11 – October 24, 2018, 05:30:34 pm

Quote from: Caflashbob – October 24, 2018, 04:58:41 pm

Dan just wondering if the panel allows the user to alter the voltage drop from float to turning on the adsorption charge from the default 80%.

My ME-RC does not. Had to buy a ME-ARC be able to program the SOC voltage drop that the charger senses to turn in the charger, can be up to 99% SOC instead of the 80%.

Not a very user friendly control panel on the ARC

For a large system the default 80% would cycle the batteries a lot.

Std voltage is 14.4 and float at 13.8. Lifeline and gels need 14.2 and 13.6.

Plus no lifeline equalization profile built in.

I'd have to turn off my solar controller to be absolutely 100% sure. My solar controller goes into bulk/absorption WAY before 20% drop in charge. Like 1% or **far** less.

As best I can tell without turning off my solar controller, the Victron invertor also moves to bulk/absorption as soon as needed, way before a 80% drop.

Re: SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

Reply #12 – October 24, 2018, 07:06:28 pm

Quote from: Chuck Pearson – October 24, 2018, 10:21:47 am

You are so close to being able to automate those panels....couple actuators, a remote control.....

I bought this jack to lift the 3 panel group. Amazon.com: MarchInn Electric Car Scissor Jack for 12V DC 3.0Tï¼ˆ6600lbï¼‰:...

It has a wired remote and a wireless remote. I will mount the wired remote inside as a back-up and use the wireless remote from the ground outside so I can monitor the rise and fall of the panels.
The jack will be mounted in the middle of the 3 panels. I have a 36"x 12"x 3/8" steel plate that will span a few roof structure beams to distribute the weight of the panels, the jack will be bolted to studs welded onto the steel panel. The panels are joined by a 1/4" aluminum 2"x2" angle iron beam the full lenght of the 3 panels. there is not much bow at each end, but I may add a gas strt at each end to help support the outer ends. I hope to get to this before Winter starts to howl.

Roger: Yes I'm making my own cables. I bought a hydraulic crimper and a cable cutter for the 4/0 cable.

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Re: SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

Reply #13 – October 24, 2018, 07:33:37 pm

I think I would be inclined to look at using an electric actuator. They come in many styles, here is one on Amazon;
ECO-WORTHY Heavy Duty 330lbs Solar Tracker Linear Actuator Multi-function...
Don

Quote from: Lon and Cheryl – October 24, 2018, 07:06:28 pm

I bought this jack to lift the 3 panel group. Amazon.com: MarchInn Electric Car Scissor Jack for 12V DC 3.0Tï¼ˆ6600lbï¼‰:...

It has a wired remote and a wireless remote. I will mount the wired remote inside as a back-up and use the wireless remote from the ground outside so I can monitor the rise and fall of the panels.
The jack will be mounted in the middle of the 3 panels. I have a 36"x 12"x 3/8" steel plate that will span a few roof structure beams to distribute the weight of the panels, the jack will be bolted to studs welded onto the steel panel. The panels are joined by a 1/4" aluminum 2"x2" angle iron beam the full lenght of the 3 panels. there is not much bow at each end, but I may add a gas strt at each end to help support the outer ends...

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Re: SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

Reply #14 – October 24, 2018, 08:42:03 pm

Thanks Don, I will have to give this some thought.
I was trying to avoid duplication. I wanted one lifting source, in the middle, because I feared a failure of other lifting devices would over torque the panel when one unit was lifting or lowering and the other lifting device failed . KISS.
I also liked the wireless remote so I could see the panel go up and down and be able to react if something failed.

I could see a bunch of uses for those actuators, especially at that price.

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SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

October 23, 2018, 09:53:57 pm

Re: SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

Reply #1 – October 23, 2018, 10:11:14 pm

Re: SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

Reply #2 – October 23, 2018, 11:27:03 pm

Re: SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

Reply #3 – October 24, 2018, 01:28:07 am

Re: SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

Reply #4 – October 24, 2018, 02:51:09 am

Re: SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

Reply #5 – October 24, 2018, 08:36:50 am

Re: SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

Reply #6 – October 24, 2018, 09:20:11 am

Re: SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

Reply #7 – October 24, 2018, 10:21:47 am

Re: SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

Reply #8 – October 24, 2018, 02:53:10 pm

Re: SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

Reply #9 – October 24, 2018, 04:33:12 pm

Re: SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

Reply #10 – October 24, 2018, 04:58:41 pm

Re: SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

Reply #11 – October 24, 2018, 05:30:34 pm

Re: SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

Reply #12 – October 24, 2018, 07:06:28 pm

Re: SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

Reply #13 – October 24, 2018, 07:33:37 pm

Re: SOLAR / BATTERY - UPDATE - pictures

Reply #14 – October 24, 2018, 08:42:03 pm

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