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Topic: Coach Won't Start (Read 1417 times) previous topic - next topic

Coach Won't Start

I've got a problem folks and I believe it fits into this thread.  My mother owns a 2009 Nimbus.  About a month ago she was taking the coach to the bus barn.  As she pulled out of her drive, she was going to back up to ensure she cleared a mailbox- the coach would not go into reverse or neutral.  She proceeded to the bus barn and realized once on the road, the coach would not shift out of first gear.  She limped in first gear to the bus barn- about 5 miles.  Her husband pulled the coach into the bus barn and parked it- he said he put the coach in neutral.  I went out with her to look at things on the coach yesterday.  It took quite awhile getting the generator to run, but got it going.  The coach will turn over, but won't start- like its not getting fuel.  The shift pad shows two "N's"- I'm guessing neutral (both steady, not flashing).  If you try and change the gear to "R' or 'D'", the upper letter display flashes "R" or "D" with a steady "N" on the lower letter display.  The "R" or "D" never go steady.  My thoughts are the coach may not really be in neutral, thus not allowing the engine to start.  Any help or guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Re: Coach Won't Start

Reply #1 –
Hopefully someone can point me in the right direction.  My mother owns a 2009 Nimbus.  Her last trip in the coach (Thanksgiving) she had a leak that left a residue on the toad.  Couldn't find anthing leaking and all levels looked good- no warnings on the dash.  Fuel milage on the way back seemed to be worse.  A week or so later as she was taking the coach to the bus barn, she pulled out of her driveway moving forward.  At the end of her drive she was going to back up to ensure she cleared a mailbox- the coach would not go into reverse or neutral.  She proceeded to the bus barn and realized once on the road, the coach would not shift out of first gear.  She limped in first gear to the bus barn- about 5 miles.  Her husband pulled the coach into the bus barn and parked it- he said he put the coach in neutral.  I went out with her to look at things on the coach yesterday.  I could find zero evidence of any leaks inside the engine compartment, under the coach- anywhere.  Only thing I found was fuel cap on passanger side off- stored in the door, but not connected to filler neck.  It took quite awhile getting the generator to run, but got it going.  The coach will turn over, but won't start- like its not getting fuel.  The shift pad shows two "N's"- I'm guessing neutral (both steady, not flashing).  If you try and change the gear to "R' or 'D'", the upper letter display flashes "R" or "D" with a steady "N" on the lower letter display.  The "R" or "D" never go steady.  My thoughts are the coach may not really be in neutral, thus not allowing the engine to start.  Any help or guidance would be greatly appreciated.  I'm not familiar with this coach- will engine turn over if the transmission is still in gear but ECM block something (like fuel) from allowing engine to start?  Or, like an auto, would engine not turn over at all if coach were not in neutral?

Re: Coach Won't Start

Reply #2 –
voilesv,

You need to check your battery voltage and connections (especially the grounds) on the start batteries.  Bad connections and or low voltage can do some strange things. Not enough voltage  and the engine ECM won't give a permisive to flow fuel and low voltage will make the trans. ECM act up.  Check these simple things before you even think about going any deeper into a repair.

Pamela & Mike
Pamela & Mike 97 U 320

"It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters."

Re: Coach Won't Start

Reply #3 –
I could be wrong but I'd bet that fluid on your toad was transmission fluid and it's really low.
1993 U225 Build #: 4285
500 Watts Solar
Honda CRV AWD
Former 1981 Foretravel Travco
Retired, Full Time Off Grid Snowbird

Re: Coach Won't Start

Reply #4 –
Pretty sure the coach will not start without being in netural, not knowing much about the coach I would call Foretravel and pick there brains.
Andy & Eileen
MONTROSE COLORADO
1992 U300  40' 6V92 TA
2016 4 Runner
1998 Jeep Grand cherokee

1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee) Build # 4135 Skp# 122921

Re: Coach Won't Start

Reply #5 –
Even if the transmission was in gear when shut off it should come back on in neutral when powered back up. The r and d issues could be caused by the fact that the engine is not running therefore no speed signal etc. I don't know if you can use the push button fluid level check when cold to see if it's even close. Dipstick is for when it's running so if you check the transmission dipstick it should be over full not running. You may need to check it for codes and to see what readings you have while cranking with a scan tool.

I am wondering if the leak was fuel and was down on power so it wouldn't shift up. An open fuel system after shut off could lose prime and be very hard to start. That age of Cummins has an engine mounted electric pump on it. Do you hear it when key is on? Does it sound like it's pumping fuel? Are you able to pull the filters and verify they are full of fuel? You could locate the pump and remove the output and pump into a bucket to verify there is fuel to that point then reconnect and verify no other leak before the injectors.

How low is the fuel in the tank? Has it ever been this low before and run ok?
Toby a 94 u280
Cummins 8.3
6 speed Allison
Exhaust brake


Adopted by Derek and Annabelle

Re: Coach Won't Start

Reply #6 –
Transmission fluid shows full on dipstick, but of course coach isnt running, so thats not accurate.  I first thought fluid on toad was transmission fluid as well, but I can find no evidence of any fluid leak in the engine bay, under the coach or on the back or sides of the coach.  The fueal guage shows about 3/4 full.  Can't really "hear" a fuel pump.  I checked prime at the Racor water seperator, prime seems good, no air and steady stream of diesel coming out of bleed port.  Bowl on the bottom shows diesel in it.  Someone else suggested weak start batteries or loose connection- I have not check those yet, but mom said she had Foretravel check them out when the coach was there in November and they said they were good.  The coach went through an inverter/generator change out earlier this year- something about bad inverter- big deal with Foretravel and Cummings- ever since then, she says the coach has been harder to start- now this issue.  The coach is pulled nose first into the bus barn- if I can't get it running, someone is going to have to come out to the coach to troubleshoot, just trying to see if there's some obvious things to check before calling someone out.  Hate to call out someone and they find a simple switch or something bad (hundred dollar fix) and she get charged thousands for call out.

Re: Coach Won't Start

Reply #7 –
Quote from: Pamela & Mike –
voilesv,

You need to check your battery voltage and connections (especially the grounds) on the start batteries.  Bad connections and or low voltage can do some strange things. Not enough voltage  and the engine ECM won't give a permisive to flow fuel and low voltage will make the trans. ECM act up.  Check these simple things before you even think about going any deeper into a repair.

Pamela & Mike
Bumping this response since it was brought in when the two requests were merged.
Learn every day, but especially from the experiences of others. It's cheaper!  - John C. Bogle

2000 U320 36' non-slide / WildEBeest Rescue
2003 U320

Re: Coach Won't Start

Reply #8 –
Sounds like two different problems to me.

Problem 1.  When your Mom last drove the coach, it was stuck in 1st gear and would not shift into reverse or neutral.

Problem 2.  The coach won't start.

Problem 1 possible solution:  I Googled this problem, and almost every hit mentioned the "output speed sensor" as the likely culprit on both 3000 and 4000 series transmissions.  See video linked below for what to check.

Problem 2 thoughts:  Inverter/charger replaced earlier this year.  Harder to start since then.  Now engine will crank, but won't start.  Fuel supply seems to be adequate.  All these things suggest a low voltage problem.  Follow Mike's suggestions to verify good starting battery voltage.  If the coach has a "boost" switch, try starting the generator and activating "boost" to insure maximum voltage is being delivered to all engine systems.  If engine still doesn't start, the problem is above my pay grade.

https://vimeo.com/151110579
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"Nature abhors a vacuum"

Re: Coach Won't Start

Reply #9 –
I tried the boost switch with the generator running- did not help.

Re: Coach Won't Start

Reply #10 –
Could low voltage on start batteries still be a culprit even though trying to start using boost and generator?

Re: Coach Won't Start

Reply #11 –
Quote from: voilesv –
Could low voltage on start batteries still be a culprit even though trying to start using boost and generator?
Yes

If engine batteries are dead the boost solenoid most likely won't carry enough amps through it for what is needed to do the job.

If batteries are low/dead the starter will need ~1500-1800+(this will also depend on the ambient temp) amps to turn over the engine. With battery problems all the juice is going to the starter and you won't have enough voltage to operate the engine ECM.

Mike
Pamela & Mike 97 U 320

"It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters."

Re: Coach Won't Start

Reply #12 –
The only way to determine if the battery voltage is low is to check with a volt meter. I would check the start battery voltage with a volt meter. A shorted cell in a battery can do some strange things.

Connections at the battery may be good but what about the connections at the starter?

Visual inspection is OK but removal of the cables an inspecting is much better.

Roland
1993 U280 4341
2010 Jeep Liberty
The Pied Pipers

Re: Coach Won't Start

Reply #13 –
If the coach turns over but does not start, I would think it is a Fuel problem. Start by bleeding the fuel system at the rear most filter or water separator.  My coach has a bleeder plug at the rear of the engine compartment on the right side where the fuel enters the water seperator. If it does not turn over at all could be one of the solenoid switches that has lost continuity.  My Thoughts..... :-\  I see you checked the prime,  must be electrical,  charge all of the batteries to see if it is a low voltage problem, or a connection/solenoid problem...
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Gerry & Brenda
CHARLOTTE HARBOR, FL
1994 Grand Villa - # 4466
U300 Unihome - 6V92 Detroit
4 speed Allison - Jake Brake

Re: Coach Won't Start

Reply #14 –
I bought two $2 digital cigarette lighter gauges that are hooked to the two batteries systems.

Would show any voltage drops if present.  A place to start
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: Coach Won't Start

Reply #15 –
UPDATE:  Went to the coach yesterday.  I had plugged the coach up to shore power a week ago on Christmas Day when I was there.  A week ago, the key FOB wouldn't open any doors or anything, like it was dead and generator was hard to start.  Now- key FOB worked great, generator stated right up, engine turned over, but no start.  I used the "boost" button on dash- engine rolled a few times, then came to life.  She ran fine, I shifted the transmission to reverse, she went fine, backed up a few feet; shifted back to neutral then drive, coach pulled forward a few feet, all shifting seemed fine- no issues.  Did not pull it out of barn, so didn't get it on the road to try other gears, but it did go back and forth and back to neutral fine.  I let coach run for about 20 minutes then shut everything down.  I went and disconnected all three start batteries to checked voltage at each one ( I know, I should have done this before starting, but oh well).  One was reading 13.12 the other two were both reading 13.09- after engine running for 20 minutes.  Next question would be- is the 13.09 a little low after being run for 20 minutes?  When I was trying to start- without boost- amps on dash was dropping below 10.  With boost on, amps stayed above 10, but there was a drop while trying to start.

Re: Coach Won't Start

Reply #16 –
Quote from: voilesv –
UPDATE:  Went to the coach yesterday.  I had plugged the coach up to shore power a week ago on Christmas Day when I was there.  A week ago, the key FOB wouldn't open any doors or anything, like it was dead and generator was hard to start.  Now- key FOB worked great, generator stated right up, engine turned over, but no start.  I used the "boost" button on dash- engine rolled a few times, then came to life.  She ran fine, I shifted the transmission to reverse, she went fine, backed up a few feet; shifted back to neutral then drive, coach pulled forward a few feet, all shifting seemed fine- no issues.  Did not pull it out of barn, so didn't get it on the road to try other gears, but it did go back and forth and back to neutral fine.  I let coach run for about 20 minutes then shut everything down.  I went and disconnected all three start batteries to checked voltage at each one ( I know, I should have done this before starting, but oh well).  One was reading 13.12 the other two were both reading 13.09- after engine running for 20 minutes.  Next question would be- is the 13.09 a little low after being run for 20 minutes?  When I was trying to start- without boost- amps on dash was dropping below 10.  With boost on, amps stayed above 10, but there was a drop while trying to start.

After running the engine and when measuring voltage I usually turn the headlights on for 5 minutes (with engine off and no charger attached) to take off the surface charge. At that point 12.7 is fully charged.

Based on your reading, I think the batteries are fine.  I would re-measue the next day just to be sure they are still holding a charge. 



Dan - Full timing since 2009
2003 U320 40' Tag 2 slide

Re: Coach Won't Start

Reply #17 –
Just giving folks an update to this thread.  Found out the starter was placing too much drag on start batteries.  Shifting issue was caused by low batteries- caused by starter.  Replaced the starter and all problems are good to go.  Batteries all check out fine now.  Foretravel wanted over $700 to replace starter- did it myself with a brand new $200 starter.
 

Re: Coach Won't Start

Reply #18 –
Quote from: AC7880 –
After running the engine and when measuring voltage I usually turn the headlights on for 5 minutes (with engine off and no charger attached) to take off the surface charge. At that point 12.7 is fully charged.
 
After charging, a stable reading is not reached until six hours after the charge is complete. So, a high reading will gradually become lower over several hours. That can trick you into thinking there is a battery or parasitic drain if the voltages are lower the next day.  If a smart charger is left on, typical float voltages will be from 13.1 to about 13.4 volts depending on battery manufacturer's specs.

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)