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Ether

Someone was asking about the ether canister a few days back. Here's what Foretravel has to say about using it in the 8.3.
jor

Re: Ether

Reply #1 –
Ether is a very dangerous product unless it is used correctly as In extremely cold weather, it is magic. It ignites very easily, which in a cold Diesel engine is sometimes necessary , ie -30 F weather.
BUT excessive Ether in a not cold engine can have disastrous results . At a minimum broken piston rings . From there it just gets worse, it can stretch head bolts , cause piston failure.
When used in exteme moderation is is a magic start solution.
But please use in extreme moderation, and I would never , never use it in a warm Diesel engine .
Safe travels
Dave

Re: Ether

Reply #2 –
Im pretty sure ether is the reason a PO had to rebuild the engine in mine. After he had it rebuilt he installed an espar block heating system. My espar needs a little work, but it worked really good the one time I used it. It throws a code right now, if this snow would go away I might be able to get going on my list for the year.

Re: Ether

Reply #3 –
Quote from: jor –
Here's what Foretravel has to say about using it in the 8.3.
Not all Cummins C8.3 motors are created equal.  Our coach, for example, came equipped from the factory with the ether manifold injection system.  By extension, I think we can assume that using it was approved by the factory.  My engine does not have a intake manifold heater, and I do not have that decal in the engine compartment.

However, just because the factory installed the ether system does not mean I have to use it.  In fact, as I mentioned in that other thread, I removed the ether hardware from our engine not long after we took possession of our coach.  I have never had the slightest problem starting our engine in the coldest temperatures that we will likely ever encounter.  No ether for me, thank you, but that is just my opinion.

Others should do what makes them happy.

Re: Ether

Reply #4 –
I know it sounds funny but some diesels will become addicted to ether.

Re: Ether

Reply #5 –
Having been skiers dry camping at altitude in minus weather the ether was necessary.  Especially without a block heater running.  Dead cold engine at minus temps needs ether. 

Our m11 has a in block electric heater and a aqua hot engine preheater fueled by either 120 volt or diesel and uses 12 volt to circulate the heated antifreeze.

And it also has an ether start system for the third backup.  Belt and suspenders.  Thank C.M.

IF I can jump the motor in bad weather I can get it to start in a dead power coach. 

A real rv.  If you had ever been there you would not remove any of the oem backup systems.

-32 F. Every green light out in the coach. 8,000 feet.  Drycamped. Breckinridge.  3 feet of snow.

We parked next to the snow plow shed.  They came over and jumped the cat at 8am..

Slow crank.  Ether.    Slow 60 second crank.  Second ether  shot.  Slowly fired a few cylinders.  Big cold smoke cloud.

Same reason why mine has a propane cooktop. 

And heat strips in the roof airs. 

Ether system on a Foretravel will not function at over 50 degrees. Thermostat controlled.

Versus a gen too cold to start. And no amps in flooded cell batteries only volts.

I know most would not do this.  You would have to be young and stupid.  Like we were.

Heat strips worked after got the gen started. Cold.....

Outdoor thermostat shut down as it's limit was -32F.

Milder weather the ether can reduce the gen run engine block heater time needed in a cold quiet dry camp area or use.





Re: Ether

Reply #6 –
Say "Good-by rings"

Or a broken piston pin.

Way too much compression in a diesel.

If you feel you need to do it, go for it. Not me.

Cheers

Re: Ether

Reply #7 –
Non turbo diesels can be 21 to 1 CR.

Turboed are 16 to 1?

The ether is a measured shot.  Not hold the button down and get more.

Sold hundreds of ether coaches.  Showed every customer their systems and how it worked.  Never heard of an issue.

Running a gen in a gen hour restricted ski area means a ticket.  Better to wait and use the ether and move out quickly versus gas out people. 

I doubt if anyone here has used their coaches this way so immaterial info.

But the idea you can is the point

Re: Ether

Reply #8 –
It all depends on the engine— I have a John Deere that Requires ether to start.  It came from the factory equipped for ether start and will not start without it.  Engine has near 10,000 hours with no issues.  No matter if it is hot or cold, a "cold" start must have ether or it simply wont start at all.

Re: Ether

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Kemahjohn –
It all depends on the engine— I have a John Deere that Requires ether to start.  It came from the factory equipped for ether start and will not start without it.  Engine has near 10,000 hours with no issues.  No matter if it is hot or cold, a "cold" start must have ether or it simply wont start at all.
It's addicted, time for an intervention

Re: Ether

Reply #10 –
Aaaarrrggghhhh!

If you have an intake manifold flame heater, you don't need ether.  In my day . . . to use the flame heater you pulled out the pump rod on the dash, placed the palm of your hand over the end and pushed.  This did two things, hold in the button that fired the spark plug and gave you leverage for a good solid push, while you cranked the engine and held the foot feed down.  The warm air created by the flame heater took the place of the ether.

Engines becoming addicted to ether?  It's a machine.  It doesn't think. Or remember.  If your engine used to start at10°F but now needs a shot of ether, it's not the fault of the ether.

If you shoot ether into a warm engine, you deserve what you get.

Caflashbob!  Can you tell me if the ether system on my 1992 U225 Grand Villa with the 5.9 Turbo Cummins is or is not a measured shot system?  While we have no desire to return to Manchester, NH or points north in the winter, well, you know how to make god laugh:  Tell her your plans.

PS If you're luck enough to have a can available, ether on a rag can help you get to assistance after a serious injury.  Never been that lucky.

Re: Ether

Reply #11 –
Aside from a heated screen on a Cummins, anytime you use ether on a warm engine, more than likely the ether will explode quite a few degrees from top dead center creating large amount of over pressure with no way to turn the pressure into correct rotational energy. Rather, it tries to stop the engine and can break rings, bend rods, etc. On my old bus with the Detroit, it had a little flip up cap to inject the ether into just before the blower but a decal warning against using on a warm engine.

The disaster happens when many diesel RV DIY filter changers have just finished installing new filters on a hot or warm engine. It won't start so ether is used. That can be a $25-$30,000 mistake.

Pierce

Re: Ether

Reply #12 –
Anytime a diesel needs ether to start when warm, most likely the rings/bore are worn and not enough heat is generated on the compression stroke. Good to do a compression check with the other possibility being dirty injectors, bad glow plug (only takes one bad glow plug to keep a four cylinder indirect injection diesel from starting) or an injection pump that needs work or injection timing adjusted. Typical direct injection tractor diesels have about 3000 psi at the injector nozzle and it should be a fine spray. If not and there is tearing or broken stream, the engine will run fine when warm but will take longer to start, especially in cold weather.

Pierce

Re: Ether

Reply #13 –
Forgot to say that the autoignition temperature of ether is only 320 F plus the explosion is much more intense than propane and only needs a air fuel ratio of between 5% and 9% to explode. This is why it's so dangerous to a warm engine.

Pierce

Re: Ether

Reply #14 –
Measured shot.  Thermostatically controlled.  Only works below 50 degrees F

Re: Ether

Reply #15 –
To the best of my knowledge we don't have the grid heater or glow plugs on our '92 5.9L BT6(?) Cummins.  It starts just fine from 20°F  on up. 

FWIW coming back from Texas Lynn used the generator and the big red switch at the foot of the bed to take the chill off the engine with the block heater.  When we started going over the chassis with a fine tooth comb Lynn noticed that the block heater wasn't plugged into the outlet.  He's happy with the engine's internal condition.

But I'm still curious about the ether injection system:  Is it metered or not?

Thank you Caflashbob!  It was 38°F here in Lyons, GA this morning.  The bedroom had none of the icy drafts as did the Rockwood and the other 2/3rds of the house warmed up quickly with the front furnace and some sunshine.
 

Re: Ether

Reply #16 –
My experience is an extended crank time might be needed to start some engines.

Up t9 60 seconds to build heat in the cylinders enough to fire up.

Rest for two minutes.  60 seconds again..

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