Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Topic: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products (Read 795 times) previous topic - next topic

Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

May 09, 2020, 09:30:29 pm

My question is this: What have you done to make your rv electrical system safer for you and the next owner? What were your concerns, and how were they remedied? Maybe links to your prior detailed install posts?

Proper fusing and proper maintenance of wiring connections, along with proper replacements or upgrades, all relate to this flamability safety issue.

I do understand concern for reducing flamibility, given our rvs considerable amount of wood and other flamable products, and having seen so many burn.

I know I can not protect against every disaster. Thus, I've enjoyed for years this forum and it's varied and expert posts regarding members thoughts and experiences. Especially useful have been detailed, "how I did it posts with pictures." Also, for me, useful , have been personal messages that were specific to my needs.

Once I was standing next to a class C, high end pre owned Bigfoot, built in Canada when the following happened. At the walk thru the new customer requested the battery tray be pulled out to see the batteries.

It took a quick thinking tech to grab the fire extinguisher, that was provided to all buyers of our pre owned rvs, quickly putting out the shocking to me, now burning battery cables, that ignited quickly into flames and thick black smoke. from the batteries all the way up to the starter motor.

"PVC is a naturally fire resistant plastic, as it has 56.8% more chlorine than general-purpose plastics."

"It is well known EPDM is highly flammable, which restricts its further application and development in some important fields, especially electronic industry."

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #1 – May 09, 2020, 09:54:14 pm

Agreed it is possible to fire retard EPDM. I posted that.

Set a tiny piece of whatever you are going to use for wiring under a flame. Remove flame? Does it continue to burn? Corian does.

The other part the us navy addressed recently was to require low smoke wiring and lighter weight in some places. The halogens in EPDM material creates cyanide? Gas when burned. Or something else nasty

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #2 – May 09, 2020, 11:03:21 pm

Bob has made his concern for fire well know. I respect his need for doing what he thinks is appropriate for his level of concern.. Has he replaced every piece of original EPDM welding cable used in the manufacture of his coach? I hope sp.

If you want to pick and choose from thin internet be sure you are comparing EPDM coverings for power cables and PVC coatings for power cables. Both of these materials are used in a wide array of other applications with a wide variation in composition.

Where you are using cables and for what purpose makes a big difference in which type you choose. PVC covered cables are much less flexible especially in cold weather. Your retractable cord reel uses an EPDM jacketed cable made up of EPDM covered wires.

Both wire types have advantages in different uses. One of the reasons mass production RVs might use PVC jacketed cable is that it is cheaper. They are not using tinned wire marine cable. Those cables are used in a completely different environment than your RV.

If you are truly worried about fire safety you shouldn't be driving a motorhome at all. Well, that isn't going to happen so choose the materials for the application carefully and do all of the appropriate installation procedures to secure and protect wires, cables, hoses and everything else in your coach.

Here is a manufacturer's discussion of PVC and EPDM cables
Types of Wire and Cable Insulation | Allied Wire and Cable

Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC)
A PVC jacket is a relatively inexpensive and easy-to-use material with the potential to be used in diverse applications. The maximum temperature range is minus 55 degrees Celsius to 105 degrees Celsius and is resistant to flame, moisture and abrasion. It also holds up against gasoline, ozone, acids and solvents.1 It can also be used for medical- and food-related purposes as it is odorless, tasteless and nontoxic. PVC jackets can be used in heavy- and thin-wall applications. PVC should not be used when flexibility and an extended flex life are required at low temperatures. When used in retractile cord applications, it also shows below-average flexibility. PVC jackets display high attenuation and capacitance loss, meaning that power is lost when used in an electrical system

Ethylene Propylene Diene Monomer (EPDM)
This synthetic rubber insulation displays outstanding heat, ozone, weather and abrasion resistance. EPDM also exhibits excellent electrical properties. Further benefits include excellent flexibility at both high and low temperatures, from minus 55 degrees Celsius to 150 degrees Celsius as well as good dielectric strength. EPDM replaces silicone rubber in some applications

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #3 – May 10, 2020, 12:49:56 am

First off I see the need for safety but any Rv no matter where manufactured is a ticking firebomb.. first thing to usually burn up is the fridge? Engine(turbo) oil? Tires from a flat? Or brakes from hanging pads? I've seen air conditioners burn an Rv to the ground or someone making dinner and a miss Hap .. now you can be safe as possible when upgrading.. first thing is first .. buy a foretravel and you will be miles ahead of all other manufacturers .. don't see to many fires with them but there is exceptions to every rule..

So many thing that can go wrong in a motorhome they if this really does bother you and you lose sleep over it ? I would suggest a different hobby ..

Crap happens and life is to short to stress over the unlikely.. just make sure your insurance is current and enjoy the drive and ride.

Or I guess we can do several pages on what if!!

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #4 – May 10, 2020, 01:16:52 am

X2 on what DavidS said. Lot of things to worry about, besides what kind of battery cables I have. But if you must rave on!

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #5 – May 10, 2020, 07:25:16 am

We live close enough to the beach that we exhibit corrosion over time with almost everything stored outdoors, You may not.

My thought was not so much as to remove and change out cabling you have now but to consider when changing cabling to maybe upgrade to the UL 1426 approved type.

I would think that the day that an upgraded wiring coach was sold that any prospective buyer would add to their appraisal of your coaches value because you considered safety as an important enough issue to add a bit of money to reduce any risk.

Would separate your coaches value from others that a prospective buyer might be looking at. It would for me.

Especially as this is inexpensive. Just a detail.

If I owned li-ion batteries their remote possibility of fire would maybe have me upgrade the cabling sooner?

There is a remote chance of anything happening but enough that shipping them does require special handling and they cannot be air shipped as most know.

The remote chance of a physical crash into a li-ion battery compartment comes to mind.

As was noted the idea that a boat is required to have fire retardant cabling is a point to consider.

Similar use in some ways as an rv.

I have also seen inverter brands where some have installed them in engine compartments in gasoline engine boats.

Not realizing that unless specially made and certified that very few inverters are of a non spark generating design.

Odds are odds. Accidents happen.

Like I said for my own reasons I will install UL 1426 marine tinned class 3 copper cabling as I change things out coming up.

Would you add in your own mind value to a used coach that the seller had put in safer wiring at least in the heavy wiring side of the system? I would.

Every appliance in your coach is UL listed why not at least the big wires?

Do watch Munro tear down a new Tesla Model Y on U tube to bare metal. Very interesting.

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #6 – May 10, 2020, 08:13:29 am

I would think that the day that an upgraded wiring coach was sold that any prospective buyer would add to their appraisal of your coaches value because you considered safety as an important enough issue to add a bit of money to reduce any risk.

This may be true for some of us gear-heads but for the vast majority of buyers it is " a slick paint job for the man and pretty interior for the woman that sells a majority of coaches" and I confess I have only sold one coach but those 2 things were what the lookers were checking out. No one checked battery compartment or even looked at engine!
Just my 2c worth
Chris

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #7 – May 10, 2020, 11:00:23 am

Quote from: Caflashbob – May 10, 2020, 07:25:16 am

We live close enough to the beach that we exhibit corrosion over time with almost everything stored outdoors, You may not.

My thought was not so much as to remove and change out cabling you have now but to consider when changing cabling to maybe upgrade to the UL 1426 approved type.

I would think that the day that an upgraded wiring coach was sold that any prospective buyer would add to their appraisal of your coaches value because you considered safety as an important enough issue to add a bit of money to reduce any risk.

Would separate your coaches value from others that a prospective buyer might be looking at. It would for me.

Not to argue your point as we all have difference of opinions and safety measures or qualities we look for in a purchase..

From the history of your posts this quote is not totally honest nor reflective as to what you have posted before.

If memory serves me correctly. You received a phone call that the coach you bought was available (as a trade) and wasn't listed and it had the mid entry and was almost a one-off a kind coach. So rare that you ran down and paid cash for it. I do. It recall ever reading about anything ever being discussed about wires or safety or anything of the sorts.. I wasn't there so I couldn't say diffinitively as to what you guys discussed but as you have discribed over the years about your purchase, I have never read anything about upgrades to anything as being the reason you bought it? I believe I read a comment as few weeks ago that you stated you had the original carpet?.

Not to argue your purchasing criteria but when a good deal comets through.. you buy.

If I told everyone what I paid for mine you would fall over.. cheaper than most old ones.. but had needed some upkeep. I've spent plenty of money on upgrades. Tried to buy the best product for the money with functionality and reliability built in( which has its own safety measures as proven by time).

At the end of the day.. there is so much other stuff that will burn on these things... I'm going to drive and use them to their full capacity ..

If something happens ? I'll worry about it then.

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #8 – May 10, 2020, 12:04:54 pm

I use marine cable whenever I do a project that needs new wiring, at least for the larger cables (6 gauge and above) because I like working with the stuff and I like the fact that it is very corrosion resistant. I also generally upsize the cabling where feasible or desirable for possible future upgrades. At this point I have replaced and upsized all of the battery cabling, with the exception of one 3-0 cable used to combine house and chassis batteries. The larger the cable size, the less heat generated for a given current... but personally, I wouldn't worry about fire danger from properly installed and sized welding cable as it came from Foretravel as long as the connections are corrosion free, the cables are terminated properly, use best practices cable routing, management, and have added protection where it makes sense. The best material in the world is not safe when improperly terminated or carelessly installed. The cost difference of marine VS welding cable to me was insignificant compared to my time and effort.
Don

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #9 – May 10, 2020, 01:00:28 pm

DaveS I had been out of the rv biz since 1995 and had no interest or reason to buy a coach.

Brad From Trans West asked Roger Tischendorf if he knew anyone who wanted to buy the coach "out of the deal" versus transport it back to Colorado. Roger called me. I said no. Ok where is it at? Scripps ranch...

Brads brother tommy my old Foretravel parts manager had "inspected" the coach prior to us seeing it and met us at the coach.

Low and behold a mid entry U320. I had not driven or been in a rv in 17 years.

Tommy using his expertise explained the coaches appearance and Roger T. Knew the previous owner as he had sold it to him and roger said it was ready to go

"How much for what" is always the deal. Never had heard of marine cabling until recently.

Coach barely drove, D2 was oil fouled. Brakes would not release every time. Took pumping the brakes to zero to have it kick in and build pressure. I knew what it was anyway.

The Barks were very nice and showed us the coach that was no longer there's as Trans West was the owner. They had only had it a short time and had decided to upgrade into a tag 03 38' double slide.

As I had bought with Dealers money hundreds of coaches I felt that there was enough "good" left in the coach to roll the dice a bit and buy it "where is, as is."

Especially a non available mid door U320.

Not worth a lot to trans west as it had just rolled 100k miles so no warranty could be sold and financing could not be arranged as it was too old.

First thing I did was to replace all batteries with mk gels and new optimas and replace all the cabling with new oem type cabling.

My 23 year buddy who started coach net and was a guru on systems did the work. I paid him. Vogues quslity control manager

My old Foretravel dealer mechanic Vincent also inspected and worked on things for me. 15 coach bucks later.

Never heard of Marine cabling then. But knowledge improves. Live and learn. Know that I know as others here have posted better, safer wiring would and will be added to the list. Probably the max size 4/0 marine tinned class 3 copper cabling will consume less power transferring the amps from the battery to inverter.

I was lucky enough to be a wholesale cash buyer that day. Price was proportional to the risks and conditions that day eight years ago.

Same as solar, inverters, tv's, internet connections and combiners. Plus looking at my guru's coaches he was working on and posts here.

Don't critic the messenger. I do not make cabling or sell it.

Just food for thought..

Add in li-ion. Can discharge at very high rates.....

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #10 – May 10, 2020, 02:51:55 pm

No cretic of anything but like posted above .. wax the outside, wipe down the inside and clean the motor.. 97.9% of shoppers are sold on that. now mix in added features like Bluetooth .. usb plugs and a wireless internet and you will pick up 1.1%

Now the last percent maybe will look for safety like air bags safety steer and so on..

I highly doubt you will find anyone they would ask about battery cables or even know what they are especially in a 20- 25 year old rig.. they would be happy that the cabinet doors are still connected after all those years.

To each there own. No disrespect meant . Also mentioned above.. with the correct gauge of cable and clean connections my originals lasted 20 years but I replaced them with a larger gauge as I added more draw from the batteries .

I have lithium and run the AC off the batteries at times.. it's all fun and games but where do you stop? Gold plated or maybe adding a moon rock so you can see in the dark?

For the amount of miles and abuse on these structures I feel they do very well.. but you can go out and buy some junk.. then I would worry

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #11 – May 10, 2020, 03:20:28 pm

"Eyeball" is important as far as a first or second time buyer. Third timers ask way more structure and systems questions. They were my Foretravel suspects.

We were never going to out "pretty" my competitors. Had to sell the steak, not the sizzle.

So every selling Feature, Advantage, Benefit(FAB) was critical versus fabrics and floorplans and paint.

I HAD to add everything possible to raise my percentages. Cost me over $1,000 a "up" to get them on the lot.

Somewhere before anyone sells a nice coach with nice batteries and inverters and solar I would definitely recommend adding a few feet of nice labeled cabling. Easy peasy stuff.

Li-ion for sure, just me after being in the burn ward long ago

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #12 – May 10, 2020, 06:31:36 pm

Label your work and leave the next owner wiring diagrams. They will appreciate it if it looks neat and tidy and understandable. Nobody wants to buy a chaotic rats nest mess.

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #13 – May 10, 2020, 06:53:15 pm

I see someone is making li-ion batteries with internal heaters now, renology? $1,399...

Any mechanically interested person should watch Munro on utube take apart a new Tesla model y.

The battery section is very interesting

Here is the UL 1426 flammability test section

15.1 A vertical specimen of the finished cable shall not flame longer than 60 seconds following any of three 60-second applications of flame, the period between applications being 30 seconds. The cable shall not con- vey flame during, between, or after the three applica- tions of flame. Other than the number and length of application of the flame noted in paragraph 14.1, the test is to be made as described in section 1060 of UL 1581.

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #14 – May 10, 2020, 07:23:01 pm

As some have opted to install a fire suppression system in the engine bay.. maybe some should do it in the battery compartment also? Maybe at each brake area and cover the brakes and tires at the same time? Or like all the new houses that are over a certain square foot they add fire sprinklers now.. maybe we need them inside the coach?

Bright side is you can have a bbq and a shower st the same time.

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #15 – May 10, 2020, 07:59:16 pm

Well Bob have you up graded all the #8 and larger cable in your motor home to PVC coated? Including the engine compartment, and the run from the house batteries to the combiner?

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #16 – May 10, 2020, 08:27:14 pm

You can add 36 watt heaters to your Battle Born batteries for less than $10 per battery. Mine will begin accepting a charge at temperatures well below zero and are fully functional at temperatures below that.

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #17 – May 10, 2020, 09:13:44 pm

Very workman like job Roger, and an excellent wiring diagram as well!

I labeled my cabling with the same numbers as the ones I replaced, in most cases, but I do have some more documentation to finish before I call it done. One day

Don

Quote from: Roger & Susan in Home2 – May 10, 2020, 06:31:36 pm

Label your work and leave the next owner wiring diagrams. They will appreciate it if it looks neat and tidy and understandable. Nobody wants to buy a chaotic rats nest mess.

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #18 – May 10, 2020, 10:11:44 pm

I have had to drag rv"ers kicking and screaming with new info since 1986, still fun. Don't take it wrong. You are entitled to your opinions, love it, feels like old times 30 years later. Forgot how much fun it was.

Great fun. Get all your blood pressures up? Worked didn't it.

I have been hugged and cursed at in the same office. Many times. Great times.

Prove me wrong? Happy to learn at the feet of my masters.

Ah if it's money after spending this much money shame on you.

A 1/2 tank of gas at the new prices is maybe what I am talking about.

Combiners and marine big wire is my rant. Pennies.

Of course that was when these same coaches were new. Scary wasn't it.

$200,000 30 years ago? How about spending that kind of money with me 30+ years ago.

Irritating isn't it? But what if I was right. Had engineers draw elaborate drawings of how we needed to alter the build because we had it wrong?

Been there, got the t shirt.

Thank you all for being good Foretravelers. Trust me.

Had not thought about it till now. I used to do this face to face hundreds of times. A lot easier this way.

Bring it on. We are all family Aren't we?

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Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

May 09, 2020, 09:30:29 pm

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #1 – May 09, 2020, 09:54:14 pm

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #2 – May 09, 2020, 11:03:21 pm

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #3 – May 10, 2020, 12:49:56 am

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #4 – May 10, 2020, 01:16:52 am

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #5 – May 10, 2020, 07:25:16 am

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #6 – May 10, 2020, 08:13:29 am

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #7 – May 10, 2020, 11:00:23 am

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #8 – May 10, 2020, 12:04:54 pm

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #9 – May 10, 2020, 01:00:28 pm

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #10 – May 10, 2020, 02:51:55 pm

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #11 – May 10, 2020, 03:20:28 pm

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #12 – May 10, 2020, 06:31:36 pm

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #13 – May 10, 2020, 06:53:15 pm

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #14 – May 10, 2020, 07:23:01 pm

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #15 – May 10, 2020, 07:59:16 pm

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #16 – May 10, 2020, 08:27:14 pm

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #17 – May 10, 2020, 09:13:44 pm

Re: Flamability of EPDM and PVC & other products

Reply #18 – May 10, 2020, 10:11:44 pm

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