Realm vs. closest competitors - what are the construction differences?

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Realm vs. closest competitors - what are the construction differences?

October 27, 2014, 11:07:42 am

This comment from Don in the thread about the trees that fell on the Entegra

Quote from: acousticart – October 26, 2014, 11:58:59 pm

Joe was aware of Foretravels, but since he wanted a "new" coach, they were well out of his price range. Perhaps he might have been tempted if the Foretravel Realm was available back when he ordered his Entegra. Interesting note that the high end of the Enterga Line (Cornerstone) uses the Spartan K3 Chassis like the Realm. The Realm comes in at more than $150K higher than Entegras Cornerstone. I wonder how MHSRV sells people on why the Realm is worth that much more? I have no information on the quality control at Entegra, though I assume it is a cut above the likes of Fleetwood etc. I am guessing that appliances and bells and whistles are similar (how many more bells and whistles can one coach have ?

made me wonder what the construction difference is between the Realm and the Cornerstone (and perhaps the King Air from Newmar)? If all are on the third-party Spartan K3GT chassis, what are the fundamental differences in the "house" construction? (not the added features/"bling", but the construction/engineering aspects)

Has anyone done a detailed analysis?

Re: Realm vs. closest competitors - what are the construction differences?

Reply #1 – October 27, 2014, 04:12:32 pm

I looked at two conerstone coaches and they looked very nice inside. I do not know the differences though other then they look similar in fit and finish. I too wonder about the 150K difference but more importantly I wonder about the 3-400K difference between the Realm and the IH.

Re: Realm vs. closest competitors - what are the construction differences?

Reply #2 – October 27, 2014, 04:43:14 pm

Motor Home Specialist is a dealer for both the FS6 and the Cornerstone. Their advertised MSRP for the FS6 is $1,026,000 and for the Cornerstone is $618,000.

They are also a dealer for the ih45. Their advertised MSRP for the ih45 is $1,300,000.

The MSRPs above are approximate and are rounded.

It is hard to obtain comparative date but it appears that the Cornerstone and the Newmar King Aire are built on the Spartan K3 chassis and the FS6 is built on the Spartan K3GT chassis.

Re: Realm vs. closest competitors - what are the construction differences?

Reply #3 – October 27, 2014, 05:38:26 pm

Quote from: LTG – October 27, 2014, 04:43:14 pm

It is hard to obtain comparative date but it appears that the Cornerstone and the Newmar King Aire are built on the Spartan K3 chassis and the FS6 is built on the Spartan K3GT chassis.

Might be my mistake on the Cornerstone, but the 2015 King Aire specs say K3GT.

My question was, does anyone know the difference in house construction between all these? Not the "powder and paint".

Re: Realm vs. closest competitors - what are the construction differences?

Reply #4 – October 27, 2014, 09:36:07 pm

Michelle,
I watched some Enter factory promotional video, and it does appear that the walls of the coach are framed with aluminum, rather than steel. Also that the insulation is fiberglass batt instead of rigid styrofoam. So I am guessing that the sidewalls are not vacuum bonded to fiberglass. Hard to say, because it was just a quick flyby and not the central focus of the video.
Just a guess...
Don

Quote from: Michelle – October 27, 2014, 05:38:26 pm

Might be my mistake on the Cornerstone, but the 2015 King Aire specs say K3GT.

My question was, does anyone know the difference in house construction between all these? Not the "powder and paint".

Re: Realm vs. closest competitors - what are the construction differences?

Reply #5 – October 28, 2014, 03:04:39 am

Quote from: acousticart – October 27, 2014, 09:36:07 pm

Michelle,
I watched some Enter factory promotional video, and it does appear that the walls of the coach are framed with aluminum, rather than steel. Also that the insulation is fiberglass batt instead of rigid styrofoam. So I am guessing that the sidewalls are not vacuum bonded to fiberglass. Hard to say, because it was just a quick flyby and not the central focus of the video.
Just a guess...
Don

Long ago we found that fiberglass battens settled in the walls somewhat leaving cold spots. Used to be sticks in the walls. Wood. Not my preference. Pretty paint.

Re: Realm vs. closest competitors - what are the construction differences?

Reply #6 – October 29, 2014, 12:24:14 pm

Quote from: Michelle – October 27, 2014, 05:38:26 pm

My question was, does anyone know the difference in house construction between all these? Not the "powder and paint".

I cannot find a brochure or ad from Foretravel or Motor Home Specialist regarding the construction of the FS6. Without that, Michelle's question cannot be answered.

When I toured the Foretravel factory a few months ago, I got the impression from the tour guide that the main difference between a FS6 and the ih45 was the chassis. I am sure there are more differences but the tour guide did not point them out. I believe the Allison Retarder is one difference.

IMHO, from reading Entegra's and Newwmar's brochures and ads, and the difference in pricing, the Entegra Cornerstone is not in the same class as the Newmar King Aire. IMHO, it appears from the pricing that the Newmar King Aire is a close competitor with the Foretravel FS6.

Re: Realm vs. closest competitors - what are the construction differences?

Reply #7 – October 29, 2014, 02:33:46 pm

I took the factory tour yesterday. To me, the chassis looked a little less substantial. The Spartan chassis had jacks instead of air bags. The interiors come in only three choices without any customization. The front of the coach has vacuum formed plastic pieces instead of fiberglass. There are numerous subtle differences that are obviously to reduce cost.

Re: Realm vs. closest competitors - what are the construction differences?

Reply #8 – October 29, 2014, 08:38:51 pm

The things I learned to look for are not obvious unless you made a study of construction and durability.

Are the sidewalls and/or roof vacuum bonded? Steel framing or aluminum? Welded?

Sidewalls next the the floor structure or on top? Carpeting under the cabinets? Gimp moldings? Insulated floors. Insulated bays?

Look down the side of a chassis with the floor mounted. How straight is it?

How straight is the floor line upon completion? Loomed wires? Bundled against a frame rail? Or in a run under the floor?

Rubber hose for the dash heat? Boost pump for the dash heat?

Brand of shock? What exact brakes? Axle housing manufacturer? Quiet finish on the gears.

Left to right weight distribution. Percent reserve capacity on each axle set?

Walk the roof. Crowned?

Loose batten for insulation or closed cell foam? Luan in the sidewalls under the skin? Laminated together?

Flap seals on the slide outs? Versus flush sides?

If all those answers are positive you own a Foretravel.

Start removing these design features and you get into the rest of the biz.

On the demo ride turn off any noise and drive the coach on a bad road. Listen for body shell and wind noise. Drive a longer rougher road than the salesman will want you to drive as they will have picked a smooth one.

Fill the tanks. All of them. Go up a steep hill. Time the full coach zero to 60.

Hard turns at speed to check body roll.

Make sure the tires are a full pressure. Hit cross ruts.

Most coaches leave out most of the long term quality for floor plans, fabrics and slide outs.

I had occasional skeptics on demo rides and for them I would drive the foretravel up on a curb with the right front tire then open the center door. Left front was in the air and the door did not jam.

Front entry? No idea.

Re: Realm vs. closest competitors - what are the construction differences?

Reply #9 – October 29, 2014, 09:08:21 pm

I just chatted with Lyle and he indicated that the biggest difference between the closest competitors and the realm is that FT has a better floor plan and slide room set up, better paint and and graphics. The other thing he mentioned is that MHS has a strong internet based sales and book of business and now have a model they can put up against the competition.

Re: Realm vs. closest competitors - what are the construction differences?

Reply #10 – October 29, 2014, 09:34:45 pm

Quote from: John S – October 29, 2014, 09:08:21 pm

I just chatted with Lyle and he indicated that the biggest difference between the closest competitors and the realm is that FT has a better floor plan and slide room set up, better paint and and graphics.

Thanks John, but that's the "added bling" mentioned in my original post. It doesn't address the question I asked of what the construction differences were. That's what I'm trying to get answered. You would think it would be a major selling point.

"Better floor plan, slide room, paint, graphics" are HIGHLY subjective. I'm looking for quantitative info. Think about it, we are all fans of Foretravel and know all the good things about the coaches. The average buyer doesn't really know what distinguishes a Realm from a Cornerstone from a King Aire (other than the "powder and paint") since the chassis is the same. We (Fofums) know the Realm "house" has got to be better constructed than those other brands, but wouldn't it be nice to be able to easily point to hard info and say "see - that's why you want the Realm over the other guys". I'm talking tubing wall thickness, insulation type and thickness, framing spacing, reinforcement around openings, roof truss design, etc. How is that different by manufacturer?

Re: Realm vs. closest competitors - what are the construction differences?

Reply #11 – October 30, 2014, 04:05:59 pm

Michelle, I agree and have never understood why Foretravel does not invest time and real effort to create a significantly better / more informative consumer-oriented sales website...so few SPECIFICS are available on their products. Seems the only way one can get specific information is to view their on-line sales photos and attempt to identify individual component manufacturers, models, etc.; and, that IMHO is very sad for those who seek detailed specs and want to know the differences. Perhaps my logic is off, yet it would seem Foretravel would want to boast / inform potential customers why and specifically how their product is truly better especially in this current age of typically instant information access and or consumer research. I emailed sales many months ago seeking specifics yet they only emailed back their general sales brochure - no details. Quite disappointing and this is surely a top management failure - can't blame the sales folks.

Re: Realm vs. closest competitors - what are the construction differences?

Reply #12 – October 30, 2014, 05:36:23 pm

Very few motivated salespeople in general. Most are "order takers"

Unless the construction is proprietary info like the parts books are I would take digital camera pictures for customers.

Country coach let me do them for a video presentation I put together for in the sales office use only.

I have gone through a lot of factories and I used to get funny looks when I suggested alternative build techniques.

They hadn't a clue. Light came on over a lot of heads. Most factories are like cloistered nunneries. Same exact system by rote and expect different results.

Country coach and foretravel never stopped changing and building better stuff.

Re: Realm vs. closest competitors - what are the construction differences?

Reply #13 – October 30, 2014, 05:39:52 pm

Jeff, you caught one of my questions. Tiffin makes several models, and their home page lists all models in ascending price order. Foretravel has three models, yet one is hard pressed to figure out which one is which from the home page. One can go to the list of coaches for sale and figure it out that way, but why can't Foretravel's home page give that information? What is the difference between a Nimbus, a Phenix, and an IH45? Again, one has to go to the coaches for sale list and figure it out.

Re: Realm vs. closest competitors - what are the construction differences?

Reply #14 – October 30, 2014, 08:35:25 pm

Bizarre too is the fact they virtually did not even acknowledge the fact they have a brand new coach in their product line. No official "coming soon" announcement on their website. I actually called FOT after first reading about the new Realm here on the forum but no-one would say anything. (I spoke to more than one person at FOT) I truly believe those I spoke with were honestly in-the-dark. Why would FOT management not want to promote the brand new Realm? It all seems so counter-productive and difficult to comprehend.

Re: Realm vs. closest competitors - what are the construction differences?

Reply #15 – October 30, 2014, 08:51:40 pm

It's pretty evident to me that Foretravel management does not have a very good understanding of sales or marketing. But that is their choice and their business model. If they are happy with it there is little we can do to influence them to greater reach heights in volume and profit. Of course I only have 45 years experience in sales and marketing management and probably am not in touch with today's market.

Re: Realm vs. closest competitors - what are the construction differences?

Reply #16 – October 30, 2014, 08:58:58 pm

It is a private brand for MHS.Â They really don't want to dilute the Foretravel Brad at this point.Â Totally understandable until market acceptance is proven and it shows that it doesn't dilute the FT chassis based offerings.

And let's face it, FT is not very tech or marketing savvy.Â Or maybe they are not feeling the need to invest in Web, social media, etc.Â Not that i think that is a goo strategy in this day and age when the web can give you a bigger presence than your actual size.

Re: Realm vs. closest competitors - what are the construction differences?

Reply #17 – October 30, 2014, 09:02:07 pm

Quote from: Kent Speers – October 30, 2014, 08:51:40 pm

It's pretty evident to me that Foretravel management does not have a very good understanding of sales or marketing. But that is their choice and their business model. If they are happy with it there is little we can do to influence them to greater reach heights in volume and profit. Of course I only have 45 years experience in sales and marketing management and probably am not in touch with today's market.

My factory friends way back when mentioned "east texas mentality"

I see it's still alive and well. No "feel" for it. Plodding...

Re: Realm vs. closest competitors - what are the construction differences?

Reply #18 – October 30, 2014, 09:26:41 pm

You know if you sell too many of anything, you might run out. Oh No!!

Re: Realm vs. closest competitors - what are the construction differences?

Reply #19 – July 08, 2020, 12:50:49 pm

Here is a brochure of the 2018 Realm that talks a bit more about it's construction. I believe the latest models have also gone to a K4 Spartan Chassis up from the K3GT. There's an exit hatch in the wall, a built in fire suppression system and the Tyron system for your tires and a Crestron control system for the entire coach. One other difference is that the Foretravels have a single tank for both waste and grey water. The corner stone has to it's advantage side vehicle detection, they use fiberglass insulation not the spray in type that I think Foretravel uses, they have some additional Xbracing in their chassis which strengthens them. So I guess one can just weigh the additions in the Foretravel to see if they make the over 100k premium worth the differnce.

Re: Realm vs. closest competitors - what are the construction differences?

Reply #20 – July 08, 2020, 01:19:47 pm

Solid foam insulation, not spray. Better than fiberglass, stays in place.

Re: Realm vs. closest competitors - what are the construction differences?

Reply #21 – July 08, 2020, 01:24:37 pm

FT factory tour - fabulous

Check out my post from two years ago. Photos are mostly Realm. I was impressed by how solidly the house is bolted to the chassis.

Re: Realm vs. closest competitors - what are the construction differences?

Reply #22 – July 08, 2020, 04:26:26 pm

Not comparing the Realm, but I was looking at buying a Cornerstone, took tour at Factory and studied them well. I was talking about a new Cornerstone so much that a good friend went and bought one hoping he beat me to it. He did. I was still on the fence when I found a 2014 IH45 that had the interior I wanted, and was priced right. Up to this point I thought the Cornerstone and IH45 were close to each other in quality. After having the IH45 and then going into the Cornerstone, my wife and I started seeing the differences as to how the IH45 was way better built.

Re: Realm vs. closest competitors - what are the construction differences?

Reply #23 – July 08, 2020, 06:15:36 pm

Don't know if he is still on the forum, but when we were researching we talked to a couple who bought a "popular brand" motorhome brand new for their full-time adventures. Less than a year later they traded it even-up for a ten-year-old Foretravel because they could see that their brand new rig wasn't going to stand up to full-time life. The Foretravel had MUCH higher quality.

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