Looking for leaks in all the wrong places!

Topic: Looking for leaks in all the wrong places! (Read 865 times) previous topic - next topic

Looking for leaks in all the wrong places!

October 18, 2020, 05:36:51 pm

Not looking for love(happily married now for 43 years!); but I am trying to find why water is dripping from the rear bulkhead in my 2004 U320 4220. I will give a few clues to all of you plumbing sleuths out there that seek to find who/what dunnit.
I bought this about 2 months ago from the 2nd owner who lived in Kilgore, not far from Nacogdoches. Keith Risch from MOT did the pre-purchase İnspection, and after only finding about a page and a half of "items needing attention,"(he usually finds 2-5 pages), he gave me a thumbs up to go ahead with the purchase. Since the owner, at his expense, had just spent $15,000 at Foretravel "getting things right," I figured my near future out of pocket expenses would be minimal. Do I hear some of you chuckling right now?!
The story of how my brand new fuel filters clogged up on my way home is a story for another time. Let's get back to the dripping.
I pulled into my RV campground and went about setting up for my very first time using water/electric/sewer. I had boondocked up to this point.
I had been (mis)informed that the U320 had both a built-in voltage regulator and water pressure regulator. Ignoring a nagging feeling that I should still go out and buy a cheap water pressure regulator just for redundancy, I hooked up, everything looked good and I went to bed. The next morning after doing a walk-around inspection, I noticed water dripping from the rear of the bulkhead and from underneath the AquaHot. I went out and bought the $16 regulator and put it on my fresh water hose. It took me some time and several calls to Nacogdoches, but I found 2 distinct leaks. The first was the pressure relief valve in the AquaHot. I put a 1/2" cap on the bottom to stop the leak, ordered a new one and installed it once it came in 2 days. Then I found another major leak on the fresh water hose reel where it comes out. The coupler was simply loose, so I took it off and wrapped some plumbers tape on the threads and tightened it up. All seemed good. I set up a heat gun to blow hot air into the bulkhead to dry it all out. I cleaned out whatever rust I could scrape out and figured I had resolved my problem. ( I researched this forum and resolved that I would have the rear bulkhead cleaned and rustproofed.) The next morning I went to inspect the bulkhead and noticed it was all wet. I thought it was condensation, and used the heat gun again to dry it all out. But today, at 4PM, it is still leaking. I still have a leak somewhere and cannot find it. I have observed that there is a trace of water on the bottom of the fresh water tank just behind the shoreline reel and water reel. It glistens when I shine a light on it, but it's not leaking. Or is it? Are there any members who have had a leak in their fresh water tank? The fresh water pump is not leaking. That bay is dry. I've taken off panels to follow the incoming fresh water line and they seem good. I have not been able to see the water line going from the inlet side to the passenger side.
Any ideas?
At this point I know I need to stop the leak before I do any bulkhead rustproofing.
Any ideas?

Re: Looking for leaks in all the wrong places!

Reply #1 – October 18, 2020, 06:34:52 pm

John,
I had a similar leak. After pulling everything apart, still couldn't find it. Turned out it was water back feeding from my fresh water hose. Must be a bad check valve. Now, I just put a simple screw on cap on the hose end and all has been dry since.
Not sure, but may be worth a look.

Re: Looking for leaks in all the wrong places!

Reply #2 – October 18, 2020, 07:09:26 pm

Mark,

I need you to break that down a bit more for me.
" It turned out it was water back feeding from my fresh water hose. Must be a bad check valve. Now, I just put a simple screw on cap on the hose end and all has been dry since."

Back feeding?
What check valve? Where is it?
Cap on hose end?

Re: Looking for leaks in all the wrong places!

Reply #3 – October 18, 2020, 07:26:46 pm

Your rear bulkhead is ALREADY compromised!

Re: Looking for leaks in all the wrong places!

Reply #4 – October 18, 2020, 07:45:31 pm

Who do you recommend for taking this to to get it fixed right?

Re: Looking for leaks in all the wrong places!

Reply #5 – October 18, 2020, 07:47:25 pm

John,

You need to let us know what part of the country you are in. A recommendation for a shop in Texas is not of much help if you live in Oregon.

And unrelated question, depending on location, do you know a good welder?

Re: Looking for leaks in all the wrong places!

Reply #6 – October 18, 2020, 07:49:45 pm

I live in Birmingham, Alabama.
I am 550 miles from Nacogdoches.
I do not know a welder at this moment; I'm new to Birmingham.

Re: Looking for leaks in all the wrong places!

Reply #7 – October 18, 2020, 07:51:46 pm

John, I can sympathize with your problem. Water knows when you are looking for a leak. I fought leaks for a couple of years before I finally just started replacing things. Two coach bucks later all has been dry for some time now, but I have bulkhead issues.

What did I replace? The hot water heater, the water pump, and the pressure tank. Even replacing the hot water heater required a second visit to get that area dry. The original installation used a section of pipe that failed shortly thereafter. It was replaced with flex and everything has been dry there ever since.

I dried out the area under and around the water pump, ran the pump without a drop of water. The next day there was water.

With Aqua-Hot you don't have an electric/propane water heater like I do, but you still have a device that makes hot water for you. When you have lots of time, park your coach in such a way that the fresh water tank is slightly elevated, so that water will flow away from it. DO NOT run the pump, Aqua-Hot, or anything else that involves the water. Do you have any evidence of water where it doesn't belong? If so, check the pipes and fittings. If not, use whatever is next down the line from your tank. If possible, make that item the high point on your coach. Any water? If yes, deal with that component. If no, go to the next component and do likewise. Eventually you will find the leak.

Just remember that water likes to follow things for long distances before dripping. I had a leak on the roof of the old S&B. The cause was a nail 20' from where the water was ruining the ceiling.

Re: Looking for leaks in all the wrong places!

Reply #8 – October 18, 2020, 07:57:44 pm

John,
I believe that there may be a check valve in your hose reel assembly that prevents water from back flowing out the hose. I was just getting water coming out the end of the hose when it was reeled up.

Re: Looking for leaks in all the wrong places!

Reply #9 – October 18, 2020, 08:20:52 pm

Thanks, Mark. My mind is slow tonight. I finally get it. Maybe a past problem was back flow from the tank into the hose and on the floor.
However, I'm hooked into city/RV park water and I still have a leak.

Re: Looking for leaks in all the wrong places!

Reply #10 – October 18, 2020, 08:32:37 pm

The blue paper shop towels are good for finding leaks. Easy to see when they get wet.

Re: Looking for leaks in all the wrong places!

Reply #11 – October 18, 2020, 08:34:22 pm

Quote from: John Joseph – October 18, 2020, 07:09:26 pm

What check valve? Where is it?
Cap on hose end?

Check valve will likely be behind the lower white portion of the utility bay back wall, on the left where the plumbing comes in from the cord reels to the tank space, in the PEX plumbing. Look over that portion, to the left of the dump plumbing, you should see white PEX and a check valve in that plumbing.

It is still possible the hose reel is leaking. We had to replace ours twice in the time we owned the coach.

Re: Looking for leaks in all the wrong places!

Reply #12 – October 18, 2020, 09:44:10 pm

Wowww..I can't believe nobody discovered this bulkhead issue during inspection and the FT coach bucks spent

Re: Looking for leaks in all the wrong places!

Reply #13 – October 18, 2020, 10:22:04 pm

I sent this in reply to John's PM to me, but others may benefit as well:

There are a few members here who have rebuilt their own basements/rear bulkhead areas. Just do a search on the ForeForum for them.

Here are a couple:
Bulkhead Repair (Partial Floor Replacement)

Rear Bulkhead Repair

Before, During, After

Don starts buttoning her up (split from Re: What did you do to your coach)

Chassis construction photos from Don and welding on your FT - Page 2

If you know a good welder who is interested in learning (reading all those posts with good pictures on rebuilding the basement/bulkhead), that may be a way to go. But, a "Bubba" for whom you are a guinea pig is NOT recommended.

As far as shops in Nacogdoches to do the work, ask on the Forum. You are really interested in he actual person who will do the work, and some of the skilled guys in Nacogdoches move between shops.

Brett

Re: Looking for leaks in all the wrong places!

Reply #14 – October 18, 2020, 11:04:00 pm

I am not sure what welder that MOT uses (they contract the actual welding out) - they send all their bulkheads to the same guy - they take off the bottom skin up to where there is a joint with solid steel, have their welder weld in the replacement steel, then they reattached seal fiberglas bottom with a piece of metal over where the cut in the fiberglas was created

low side $1,500, high side

? average about $3-4K, no more bulkhead worries.
I saw another shop in town with a less than stellar reputation remove the entire fiberglass and weld an entire new frame for the basement and reinstall. Took months and MAYBE 10% of the metal was compromised - way overkill, this is not convenient or cheap, but kind of like another good sized speed bump in the grand scheme of motorhome ownership for most folks that need a repair.

Mine was right at $3,500 wish at MOT as I recall, it involved the front bulkhead and the first two cross pieces I believe.

They can help you find the leak too if you can't figure it out - damage aleready done, not going to get much worse in a week or two depending on what you can work out with your schedule.

Re: Looking for leaks in all the wrong places!

Reply #15 – October 19, 2020, 07:58:13 am

My job came in at about $7,000 Canadian with replacing fuel lines had to rent a shop and use two Local welders two weeks after buying the coach

Re: Looking for leaks in all the wrong places!

Reply #16 – October 19, 2020, 08:02:09 am

More pictures

Re: Looking for leaks in all the wrong places!

Reply #17 – October 19, 2020, 09:06:20 am

Quote from: John Joseph – October 18, 2020, 05:36:51 pm

I had been (mis)informed that the U320 had both a built-in voltage regulator and water pressure regulator.

FYI, if it still has a Maverick branded main transfer switch, what it has is are over/under relays and an small surge protector on the transfer switch. The over/under relays are adjustable and someone messing with the knobs on them could cause them to allow lower or higher voltage than desired to pass.

Re: Looking for leaks in all the wrong places!

Reply #18 – October 19, 2020, 09:25:59 am

Wow, Rick. 2 weeks after buying, then all that work.
Tim, thanks for the rough estimate on repair costs.
I used a highly recommended pre-purchase inspector, who has 40 years of Foretravel experience. He got up under the coach, used his rubber mallet to pound all over the bottom skin. He noticed the gap between the skin and the frame. He told me it was solid, take a chisel or scraper/wire brush and clean it out as far as you can reach in, then fasten a 1" wide piece of aluminum across the bottom to fasten the skin and remove the gap. He noticed it had some silicon chalk and told me not to use that. Rather, allow a small gap for any water to exit. He NEVER mentioned anything about the need to weld.
Now I post some pictures on the forum and it's turned into a Monster!
I'm trying to figure out if my highly qualified inspector had a bad day and simply got it wrong on mine. Do some members go 'over the top' with solutions if they see any rust at all? I really don't know. I'm just trying to fix my problem: with neither the bandaid approach nor the 'way over the top' solution.
It seems that pulling the skin back is the only way to know for sure how extensive the corrosion is.
I did read the post of Jim McNeece(rust remediation) who pulled the skin back, dealt with the rust and did not have to weld.
It seems that pulling the skin back is the only way to know for sure. I'm ok with doing the type of work Jim McNeece did, but I don't weld.
Who are the skilled guys in Nacogdoches that do this?

Re: Looking for leaks in all the wrong places!

Reply #19 – October 19, 2020, 09:50:27 am

Quote from: John Joseph – October 18, 2020, 05:36:51 pm

Keith Risch from MOT did the pre-purchase inspection, and after only finding about a page and a half of "items needing attention," (he usually finds 2-5 pages), he gave me a thumbs up to go ahead with the purchase. Since the owner, at his expense, had just spent $15,000 at Foretravel "getting things right," I figured my near future out of pocket expenses would be minimal. Do I hear some of you chuckling right now?!

I am not chuckling at all, and neither is any other experienced member of this Forum. After reading your first post, and seeing the photos in that post, I am shaking my head in deep disappointment. You did everything we tell prospective buyers to do...you did everything right, and you end up in this situation. This should not have happened. The fact that it did shows something went very wrong with the inspection process.

You should have been thoroughly briefed on the possible serious and expensive consequences of severe rust in the bulkhead area.

Instead, you were assured that "it was solid". We should all find this fact disturbing. It is not, in any way, humorous.

Did your inspection agreement or contract offer any recourse in the event that undisclosed problems showed up after purchase?

Re: Looking for leaks in all the wrong places!

Reply #20 – October 19, 2020, 10:25:19 am

I would research your area for "rig welders",they have the pickup trucks with the portable welding machines,if you have any gas
and or oil production in your area they will be around and do the job in your area.As to the water leak,for now don,t leave the
water pressure on,use the onboard pump just when you need water or better yet get some gallon jugs and just use them for now.
As to the inspector with 40 years exp. I would consider naming him so no one else gets his "expertise",you have a 1" gap between
metal parts and he tells you to fill the gap,try and find a forum member or 2 in the area to look the coach over in case he misdiagnosed any other things.

Re: Looking for leaks in all the wrong places!

Reply #21 – October 19, 2020, 11:27:30 am

Let me be very clear.
I started this post to find help in how to resolve my issues; NOT to bash anyone or criticize. It is what it is. I do not have any recourse regarding my inspection or purchase except to bring it to the sellers attention. It was bought "as is, where is." I really believe the seller was unaware of the bulkhead corrosion. The seller actually took the inspection report items and fixed almost everyone of them before we bought it. I have called the seller about other little problems and he has been more than willing to help me.

Right now I'm just wondering how much welding will be involved.

Re: Looking for leaks in all the wrong places!

Reply #22 – October 19, 2020, 12:11:14 pm

Quote from: John Joseph – October 19, 2020, 11:27:30 am

Let me be very clear.
I started this post to find help in how to resolve my issues; NOT to bash anyone or criticize.

John,

My post (above) does not, in any way, suggest that you are complaining about your situation. In fact, you are being extremely positive and very proactive in your response to this revelation that you may need to have considerable unexpected work done to your coach.

The reason I made my comment is because we, on this Forum, always try to encourage prospective buyers to do exactly what you did. We repeat over and over that the only way to safely purchase a pre-owned coach is to get a professional inspection done while the buyer is actually there in person to observe the process and ask questions. If it is revealed that the coach has flaws, at least the buyer will be made aware of them, and can include the cost of remediation in the pre-purchase bargaining process.

I personally feel our standard Forum advice did not, in this case, produce the desired result. That is disappointing to me. We don't necessarily discourage buyers from purchasing a coach with issues, as long as the buyer understands how much time, effort and money will be required to fix things. Some buyers relish a challenge! But, if a buyer is blind-sided with possibly expensive repairs, AFTER having paid for the recommended inspection...well, that is simply not right.

I hope peeling back the bottom skin and taking a good look around shows less damage than we anticipate.

You for sure need to discover the source of the water leak before you worry about anything else.

Re: Looking for leaks in all the wrong places!

Reply #23 – October 19, 2020, 12:14:17 pm

Sit back and research what you can on the forum and catch your breath,you don,t have to fix it right away,just my opionion but
the 3 main phases of the fix would be,removing all the bad parts and painting what you can't remove,getting a welder to build
the new frame part,installing the framework,when done you will have a coach that will outlast you.

Re: Looking for leaks in all the wrong places!

Reply #24 – October 19, 2020, 03:59:31 pm

Keeping the bulkhead separate, you need to resolve the leak first.
A few thoughts after recently chasing a leak in our 38ft 2004 U295.

It's possible what you found may be the source of the leak or it might not be. I would doubt that 1 day airing out and use of the heat gun is sufficient to dry everything out, so it may still show wet. Also if your leveling has shifted at all, any leaked water will flow to the low side or corner.

Many people follow the approach of never using the city water other than to fill the tank. Fill the tank, run off the tank. Turn the pump on and off when you need it. It reduces the potential of having a massive leak that will continue to be fed by the city water pressure.

If you have been using the coach without being connected to city water and have not had any issues then, maybe you found the leak with the hose reel connection. However there are a lot of plumbing lines near that area in addition to the hose reel. You have the shower, vanity sink, tank flush loop, outside faucet, maybe the water tank fill line (our 295 has a manual valve under the vanity sink, I believe yours is an electric solenoid), and possibly even the lines to the clothes washer. We had a problem with our cold water line to the vanity sink. It evidenced itself inside but I have no doubt it would have found its way to the basement and/or outside. I was able to use the manifold to turn everything off and turn them on one at a time to find the leak.

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