Weird starting problem

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Weird starting problem

May 11, 2021, 12:59:34 pm

Yesterday I was installing a new alternator had the ignition key on the on position checking the wires to in stall the new alternator after installing alternator and checking that everything was correct I went to start engine nothing it would not turn over. All the gauges were on and reading ok transmission shows that it was in neutral it just would not turn over check batteries with meter voltage at 12.6 wires on battery are tight .so I quit for the day this morning I go back turn the key and she fired right up. How this is the fourth time this happened.each time I'm work on the coach and using the on position on the ignition with out it run.I walk away and come back some time after and she fires right up I did a lot of work this winter on her that includes installing three new 1000 cranking amps batteries and cables new isolator box clean all the ground on frame and engine coach batteries are two year old I start this coach each week run it for a hour if I'm not using it I put over 500 miles this spring on it and it starts every time at first crack it is charging engine batteries at 14.6 volts and house batteries at 14.2 volts it works perfect. But his has happened four times and every time I'm working on it with the key on and engine not running puzzle if it's a starter problem or a relay / Solenoid or that's the way it's design for some reason . when it happens you turn the key and nothing happens the lights don't dim just nothing on the key but everything works just walk away and come back later. And yesterday when it would not star I even tried it with the boost switch the gauge show full change but I still put the charger on it for the night at that time Charger show batteries 95% change and 100% this morning and charger hat shut off. Each time this happens I'm working on it . It's never let me down on the road or starting her up every week for an hour and in that hour I may start her three or four time and try everything out.
Anyone have the answer
Rick

Re: Weird starting problem

Reply #1 – May 11, 2021, 01:43:05 pm

i am going to say it has something to due with the key on but engine not running. I am thinking yours has an engine computer so the computer may time out if the key is left on without the engine running.

Re: Weird starting problem

Reply #2 – May 11, 2021, 01:57:37 pm

Quote from: Cape Bretoner – May 11, 2021, 12:59:34 pm

Yesterday I was installing a new alternator had the ignition key on the on position checking the wires to in stall the new alternator after installing alternator and checking that everything was correct I went to start engine nothing it would not turn over. All the gauges were on and reading ok transmission shows that it was in neutral it just would not turn over check batteries with meter voltage at 12.6 wires on battery are tight .so I quit for the day this morning I go back turn the key and she fired right up. How this is the fourth time this happened.each time I'm work on the coach and using the on position on the ignition with out it run.I walk away and come back some time after and she fires right up I did a lot of work this winter on her that includes installing three new 1000 cranking amps batteries and cables new isolator box clean all the ground on frame and engine coach batteries are two year old I start this coach each week run it for a hour if I'm not using it I put over 500 miles this spring on it and it starts every time at first crack it is charging engine batteries at 14.6 volts and house batteries at 14.2 volts it works perfect. But his has happened four times and every time I'm working on it with the key on and engine not running puzzle if it's a starter problem or a relay / Solenoid or that's the way it's design for some reason . when it happens you turn the key and nothing happens the lights don't dim just nothing on the key but everything works just walk away and come back later. And yesterday when it would not star I even tried it with the boost switch the gauge show full change but I still put the charger on it for the night at that time Charger show batteries 95% change and 100% this morning and charger hat shut off. Each time this happens I'm working on it . It's never let me down on the road or starting her up every week for an hour and in that hour I may start her three or four time and try everything out.
Anyone have the answer
Rick

Had this happen. Will it turn over and start from back start panel with key on? I 'am going to say it's the main relay at lower front right, behind the panel
It is getting hot with key on, but drops out when you go to start.
I would drive into my shop, shut coach off then go to start to move it a little, same thing.
You can do the search on here to find replacements. It's basically a Ford start relay, but constant duty 100 amps I believe. Napa will have it.
Chris

Re: Weird starting problem

Reply #3 – May 11, 2021, 02:49:28 pm

Quote from: gracerace – May 11, 2021, 01:57:37 pm

Had this happen. Will it turn over and start from back start panel with key on? I 'am going to say it's the main relay at lower front right, behind the panel
It is getting hot with key on, but drops out when you go to start.
I would drive into my shop, shut coach off then go to start to move it a little, same thing.
You can do the search on here to find replacements. It's basically a Ford start relay, but constant duty 100 amps I believe. Napa will have it.
Chris

Thanks the starter button on the back doesn't work I do also thing it's the relay trying to find the relaying the front passenger panel is what I figure

Re: Weird starting problem

Reply #4 – May 11, 2021, 03:24:58 pm

Quote from: Cape Bretoner – May 11, 2021, 02:49:28 pm

Thanks the starter button on the back doesn't work I do also thing it's the relay trying to find the relaying the front passenger panel is what I figure

Sorry, wrong terminology! My bad!

Ignition solenoid

Big round silver thingy, with all the wires.

Chris

Re: Weird starting problem

Reply #5 – May 11, 2021, 03:39:42 pm

@Chris,
On his '99 he don't have an ignition solenoid like yours shown in your pic.

@Rick,
When you tried the button in the engine compartment did you have the ignition key on or off?

Mike

Re: Weird starting problem

Reply #6 – May 11, 2021, 05:09:25 pm

Mike the button in the engine compartment does not work the wires have been Disconnected by previous owner that's one of the projects on my list it's not on the top I'm trying to figure out this problem then move on to a new back up camera system I just came back from checking it out I tried her started it right up turn over good ran it for ten minutes then turn her off and turn to start her and nothing on key wouldn't turn over turn the key back off and try again and it started ran her for a minute or so turn her off tried to started her nothing again nothing turn key off try again she started right up very puzzling. The first time I start her cold starts every time the best and wines over very good when I started her cold starts very good how often do you start an engine with in seconds so don't know if it was always this way no spin on the second try

Re: Weird starting problem

Reply #7 – May 11, 2021, 05:57:27 pm

Maybe the ignition switch is going bad? When you turn the key and it won't start, does everything come on, just won't crank?

Re: Weird starting problem

Reply #8 – May 11, 2021, 05:58:11 pm

Quote from: Cape Bretoner – May 11, 2021, 05:09:25 pm

Mike the button in the engine compartment does not work the wires have been Disconnected by previous owner that's one of the projects on my list it's not on the top I'm trying to figure out this problem then move on to a new back up camera system I just came back from checking it out I tried her started it right up turn over good ran it for ten minutes then turn her off and turn to start her and nothing on key wouldn't turn over turn the key back off and try again and it started ran her for a minute or so turn her off tried to started her nothing again nothing turn key off try again she started right up very puzzling. The first time I start her cold starts every time the best and wines over very good when I started her cold starts very good how often do you start an engine with in seconds so don't know if it was always this way no spin on the second try

Do you have the wiring diagrams? If it doesn't have a ignition solenoid like mine, it has some sort of relay for ignition switch. I doubt that FT wired everything through the ignition switch.
Chris

Re: Weird starting problem

Reply #9 – May 11, 2021, 06:40:36 pm

On his '99 they used solid state relays up front to help with the problems with the older ignition solenoids. The problem is that they used the old style on the isolator board. Now the one that is back there could be giving problems. It is the Aux. start solenoid and on his coach may/should be the one tied to the neutral start switch. If this one starts to fail it may give the same problem.

Mike

Re: Weird starting problem

Reply #10 – May 11, 2021, 07:41:40 pm

Quote from: turbojack – May 11, 2021, 05:57:27 pm

Maybe the ignition switch is going bad? When you turn the key and it won't start, does everything come on, just won't crank?

Everything comes on and works nothing dimes just won't crank

Re: Weird starting problem

Reply #11 – May 11, 2021, 07:43:59 pm

Quote from: gracerace – May 11, 2021, 05:58:11 pm

Do you have the wiring diagrams? If it doesn't have a ignition solenoid like mine, it has some sort of relay for ignition switch. I doubt that FT wired everything through the ignition switch.
Chris

I have the wire diagrams and tomorrow will try to read them there a lot of wires there

Re: Weird starting problem

Reply #12 – May 11, 2021, 07:53:10 pm

I don't know if this will help but when a vehicle won't start I trouble shoot it first by jumping the starter solenoid and the I work
backwards.

Re: Weird starting problem

Reply #13 – May 11, 2021, 08:02:47 pm

That was my intention this morning but it started and been starting all day going to try to finding the relay and try to order one I think it the one in the picture going to test with test light tomorrow with turning the ignition on and off

Re: Weird starting problem

Reply #14 – May 11, 2021, 08:40:46 pm

I think Mike is on to it. Starter solenoid in the back may be giving you grief. Same thing as a Ford starter solenoid also. But momentary.

I carry a spare of both constant duty, and momentary. Cheap a chips. Same style is used for boost switch.

So when you go to start potion on the key position, it sends voltage to the start solenoid, which sends power to the starter.

Look at your diagram, you will see it. FT did a wonderful job on the diagrams. The best part is, yours are inside at the foot of the bed. Our 97 and earlier coaches having them hanging underneath, which a bugger!

Old guys trick is good too.

Chris

Re: Weird starting problem

Reply #15 – May 12, 2021, 07:57:39 am

I'm not sure if we are talking about the same solenoid the starter solenoid is on the starter and then there's a solenoid for the boost switch which is on the in side of the bed the battery cable goes from the battery to the solenoid switch for the boost switch and a second cable on the same bolt side on boost switch goes down to the solenoid on the starter if I'm Tracing it right I'm trying to figure out where the starter relays are or a picture so i know what I'm looking for then I should be able to test it with a test light and swap it out

Re: Weird starting problem

Reply #16 – May 12, 2021, 09:17:50 am

WOW, that starter looks nasty. Yes, there appears to be a solenoid on the starter.
But on the inside of the bed at the top, should be two solenoids. One is boost, one goes to starter.
Hard for me to tell what you have, as our diagrams are different.

Chris

Re: Weird starting problem

Reply #17 – May 12, 2021, 11:29:42 am

Thanks Chris I found the solenoid that you guys where talking about under the bed , going to go one by one and clean all the connection up the starter it looks bad it's all unpainted 21 years old ,but I cleaned the cables up with sand paper and now that I found the Solenoid I shall start checking it out And maybe it is in the starter I was thinking of replacing it but it works good just the odd time in a blue moon there nothing on the key and like I say walk away come back and it starts Now I think I'm going in right direction thank you very much
Rick

Re: Weird starting problem

Reply #18 – May 12, 2021, 11:39:25 am

Quote from: Cape Bretoner – May 12, 2021, 11:29:42 am

Thanks Chris I found the solenoid that you guys where talking about under the bed , going to go one by one and clean all the connection up the starter it looks bad it's all unpainted 21 years old ,but I cleaned the cables up with sand paper and now that I found the Solenoid I shall start checking it out Now I'm going in right direction thank you very much
Rick

The one for the starter, is not constant duty. But the boost one is.

If I had your diagrams, I would say one of those relays (black boxes) in front could be bad. As Mike said, they probably used these, instead of the Ford type Solenoid they used for years.

I have slept since then, so mind a little foggy!

If you do all this, and it doesn't work. When it's not working, have someone go to start position on key, see if you have power to the smaller wires on the starter. Not the big battery cable.

Chris

Re: Weird starting problem

Reply #19 – May 12, 2021, 05:07:05 pm

Thanks for all the help I started to clean and look at all the connections and I found the main ground strap and ground wires to the relays loose the strap from steel backing plate to the frame I am sure this was my problem thanks again
Rick

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