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Topic: LP equip. all working, but Hydro Flame LP Controller and Leak Detector problem (Read 758 times) previous topic - next topic

LP equip. all working, but Hydro Flame LP Controller and Leak Detector problem

From day one after replacing all of my chassis and engine batteries last October -- the panel as pictured has had both the propane and CO lights illuminated red. It also has a single chirp sound about every two minutes. I've not been concerned, as the main propane tank valve has always been off, and there has never been any detectable smell around the tank of any leak.

Now that my water heater is back online, I started working my way through anything else using propane. Both furnaces fired right up and ran very quiet. Then, I tried the Fridge. I am not connected to any shore power. Turning it on (selecting Gas option), I could hear the ignitor sparking, but it would time-out and illuminate the "Check" light. So I removed the sheet metal panel covering the burner tube, and was quite surprised to find an almost perfect cone-shaped pile of rust flakes (some a half-inch in size) covering the tube-end and thermocouple. After vacuuming that out, I tried again and it lit right up. I'm assuming the rust flakes come from the vertical exhaust flue -- where the galvanizing was burned off from prior use, and the Marine Layer air set-up the rusting over the years this Coach sat un-used. Anyone else have a similar experience?

I only let it run for about 5 minutes -- as I want to make sure the rust flakes are not due to a more serious problem.

I also fired up the two-burner galley range, and that works perfectly.

However -- it is now time to get to the bottom of the Hydro Flame control panel. I'm thinking maybe a faulty sensor. Once I opened the main tank valve and got the water heater going, I noticed the CO light went out, but the propane light stays red.

Of course, that chirp noise every few minutes would drive me crazy after moving into the Coach, so I have to get to the bottom of this as my next step.

Any comments are appreciated. 
Michael
1995 U300SE CAT 3176B Build # 4612 ("Marvin")

Re: LP equip. all working, but Hydro Flame LP Controller and Leak Detector problem

Reply #1 –
Cleaned that stuff off countless Rv refers burners. Including my own two days ago.  Long ago practice made this fun.

Used to pound on the flue assembly to get only the loose stuff out then finish clean the burner.


Bob
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: LP equip. all working, but Hydro Flame LP Controller and Leak Detector problem

Reply #2 –
A lot of the rust may come from the baffle in the flue assembly. It is a flat piece of steel in a spiral shape. You should be able to pull it from the top of the flue and brush off some rust. Removing it will also allow you to run a brush down the tube to knock loose rust from inside the flue.

Access to the top of the flue may be challenging with the refrigerator in place. I learn a bit about the construction while I was replacing the cooling unit on our Dometic refrigerator.
J D Stevens
1997 U295 CAI 36' Build #5085
2002 Subaru Outback
Motorcade 16869
Bellville, TX

Re: LP equip. all working, but Hydro Flame LP Controller and Leak Detector problem

Reply #3 –
I think that the Leak Detector has a shelf life and yours might be past age.  I replace mine due to the chirp, with a new one, and never had another problem in my 93 two years ago.

Just had to do the same with 15 year old smoke detector in this coach.
Dave Cobb
Buckhorn Lake Resort The Club, #6202, Kerrville TX
check the map.  I do rent it out when I am traveling!
2001, U320, 36' #5887, in Kerrville, FT Club #17006, (7/23 to present)
2024 Jeep Grand Cherokee L, Summit, white
EX: 98 U295, 36' #5219, (mid door), (4/13-10/23)
EX: 93 U225, 36' (4/11 to 4/13)

Re: LP equip. all working, but Hydro Flame LP Controller and Leak Detector problem

Reply #4 –
Quote from: Dave and Dolly Cobb –
I think that the Leak Detector has a shelf life and yours might be past age. 

Yup - LP and CO detectors generally have a 7 year life; battery operated smoke detectors are usually 10 years. 

Anyone with a coach older than a 2006 and no any record of the detectors being replaced should definitely consider new units.
Learn every day, but especially from the experiences of others. It's cheaper!  - John C. Bogle

2000 U320 36' non-slide / WildEBeest Rescue
2003 U320

Re: LP equip. all working, but Hydro Flame LP Controller and Leak Detector problem

Reply #5 –
Thanks for the replies. I've been searching online, but have not yet found one that looks like it would be an identical flush-mount like the Hydro Flame panel - as pictured above the entry door. Anybody know of one?

I also have a second smaller detector near the floor in the dinette area, and it also has a test button on it -- if I remember correctly.

All the best out there,
Michael
Michael
1995 U300SE CAT 3176B Build # 4612 ("Marvin")

Re: LP equip. all working, but Hydro Flame LP Controller and Leak Detector problem

Reply #6 –
Howdy Michael,  Maybe this post with some Links to LP and CO2 detectors will help.
LP & CO detector resource
Good Luck, Dave A
Dave and Nancy Abel
'00 U320 36' WTFE  Build #5669
'10 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon
Livingston, TX  SKP's Fulltiming

Re: LP equip. all working, but Hydro Flame LP Controller and Leak Detector problem

Reply #7 –
Thanks for the sourcing info.

When I turn the switch to the "on" position on the Hydro Flame, I hear the solenoid clicking to afford flow -- on the main tank. I've not seen any particular reference to this solenoid control on the detectors I viewed online. Are they just alarming detectors, then?  -- and I'd have to come up with some other way to energize the solenoid?

Or is it just assumed (hate that word) that the control is on most of these?

And also -- the near-floor level sensor. That one will need to be replaced, also. It is smaller in size than the above the door one. Maybe it -- is just a detector with no control capability -- or maybe it's wired to the main unit.

All the best out there,

Michael 
Michael
1995 U300SE CAT 3176B Build # 4612 ("Marvin")

Re: LP equip. all working, but Hydro Flame LP Controller and Leak Detector problem

Reply #8 –
Michael,
Your old propane detector had the feature of being able to shut off the gas when an alarm is triggered.  It also cut off the gas if the detector was shut off.  They don't make them like that anymore and I really don't know why.  It's my understanding all the new ones are alarm only - not really useful if no one is around to hear it.
Some people remove the solenoid valve - it needs power to be open - so not so good for boondocking.  I suppose you could put in a simple toggle switch if you like the convenience.
I don't know about the second unit down by the floor.  Propane is heavy so that's where it should be.  CO detector should be high.
John Fitzgerald
1991 U300 (SAI) Side Aisle Island Bed 40'
Detroit 6V92 with Allison Retarder
Meridian (Boise), Idaho

Re: LP equip. all working, but Hydro Flame LP Controller and Leak Detector problem

Reply #9 –
We added a second propane detector near the floor in another location so we would not have to count on just one detector. We chose to add a new detector and keep the original one, once we found it still worked just fine. Also it is nice to have redundancy on life saving detectors.

We put a switch on the 12-volt positive wire going to detectors and found that if we turn off and back on this new switch the detector would do a 'hard' reset and continue to work ok, which was much better than pressing the button on the detector to reset, which often did not reset the detector.

We have the original propane detector, mounted near the floor that has output wires to a solenoid mounted at the propane tank. Whenever the propane detector would false alarm, all propane to the coach would be turned off and any reset took a long time, which was a major inconvenience. I put a bypass switch that disconnected the tank solenoid from the detector, put 12 volts to close solenoid and then put 5 volts to keep the solenoid closed. The bypass switch brought back propane flow right away. Years later during a propane plumbing change, we removed the solenoid and removed the bypass switch.

As I understand it, years ago RV safety code required the solenoid and current code does not require the solenoid and propane detectors with solenoid circuit are no longer manufactured, so anyone with a solenoid has a problem if they want to replace the old style detectors. The best option probably is to remove solenoid from tank plumbing. Original detectors when reset, sends 12-volts to solenoid for a set amount of time, then switch to sending about 5-volts as long as the detector stays clear.

Re: LP equip. all working, but Hydro Flame LP Controller and Leak Detector problem

Reply #10 –
As the RV codes have changed since the coach was built, less options are still being made.  If you really want a "off safety switch", then look to the marine suppliers.  As propane is heavier than air, it settles, so the boating industry still uses off/on switches, with red warning lights.

I removed mine on the 93, after trying to find a solution.  The only one I found was several hundred dollars, from one source.
Dave Cobb
Buckhorn Lake Resort The Club, #6202, Kerrville TX
check the map.  I do rent it out when I am traveling!
2001, U320, 36' #5887, in Kerrville, FT Club #17006, (7/23 to present)
2024 Jeep Grand Cherokee L, Summit, white
EX: 98 U295, 36' #5219, (mid door), (4/13-10/23)
EX: 93 U225, 36' (4/11 to 4/13)

Re: LP equip. all working, but Hydro Flame LP Controller and Leak Detector problem

Reply #11 –
Well, I just found this one with relay control for the solenoid.

MARINE TECHNOLOGIES 70-742-R-WT-KIT - Marine Technologies Dual Co/lp Alarm


IMHO -- the Code should not have been changed, that is -- all Detectors should shut-off the main LP supply when alarming. What's the use, then --- other than an alarm to tell you to wake-up and run for the woods.

Scenario #1
You have your water heater running, so you can have a shower after returning from a hike or "getting sweaty" activity -- but a leak develops while you are gone, and you return to a large smoldering cinder where your coach used to be.

Scenario #2
You are making a wicked pasta sauce from scratch that requires a low simmer setting on the gas range for 4-6 hours. You decide to take a walk down by the lake, so you cover the pot, grab a favorite walking stick you found a few days before -- and head out.
A leak develops -- and you hear the neighbors blowing their horns and waving their arms frantically at you as you round the last bend back to your site. Too late.

I think the $225 for this unit is well worth the "peace of mind" it offers. You can also hook-up to a few external horns, which I think is another good idea if you had your Coach buttoned-up and could not hear the internal alarm. In fact -- it may be a good idea to wire one of those aux outputs to the air-horns with an intermittent relay to blow the horns in short bursts.
Michael
1995 U300SE CAT 3176B Build # 4612 ("Marvin")

Re: LP equip. all working, but Hydro Flame LP Controller and Leak Detector problem

Reply #12 –
Quote from: geomm –
In fact -- it may be a good idea to wire one of those aux outputs to the air-horns with an intermittent relay to blow the horns in short bursts.

We had a flatulent dog who used to set off the propane detector in our previous motorhome (he liked to sleep in front of it).  I would not have wanted to alert the neighbors to his digestive issue :-X
Learn every day, but especially from the experiences of others. It's cheaper!  - John C. Bogle

2000 U320 36' non-slide / WildEBeest Rescue
2003 U320

Re: LP equip. all working, but Hydro Flame LP Controller and Leak Detector problem

Reply #13 –
 :D

Michelle, I guess a methane-absorbing diaper for the dog would have cured that!
Michael
1995 U300SE CAT 3176B Build # 4612 ("Marvin")

Re: LP equip. all working, but Hydro Flame LP Controller and Leak Detector problem

Reply #14 –
The original propane solenoid needs 12-volts to open, but is designed to keep open with about 5-volts, I guess to keep from overheating. So any solenoid used with the Marine Technologies alarm relay, must be designed for constant 12-15 volts without overheating. It appears the detector does not come with a propane solenoid.

I think propane & CO should not be combined into one detector as their optimum mounting locations in a room are different.

Re: LP equip. all working, but Hydro Flame LP Controller and Leak Detector problem

Reply #15 –
Barry,

Possibly I read it wrong, but I thought the kit does come with a solenoid for the propane tank.

However -- with that said, I do agree with the LP detector being mounted lower. But-- maybe that one in my dinette area a few inches off the floor is actually the LP detector, and the CO detector is in the main control panel above the entry door.

I'll do some more poking around and researching.
Michael
1995 U300SE CAT 3176B Build # 4612 ("Marvin")

Re: LP equip. all working, but Hydro Flame LP Controller and Leak Detector problem

Reply #16 –
@Michael You're probably right the detector low to the floor is the propane detector. IIRC CO disperses pretty evenly in the air so the detector can be put pretty much anywhere. Propane is slightly heavier so collects on the floor. That is why there is a slot cut in the floor of the propane compartment. To allow the propane to flow out of the bay if there is a leak.

see ya
ken
The selected media item is not currently available.ken & dori hathaway & Big Agnes
🍺1992 U300 GrandVilla WTBI #4150 FOT FBP 2011
✨6V-92TA DDEC Parlor Coach 350HP Series 92
🏁2011 Nissan XTerra Pro-4X

Re: LP equip. all working, but Hydro Flame LP Controller and Leak Detector problem

Reply #17 –
I know this is an old post but I have the same chirping noise on my (new to me) 1995 U240 Grandvilla
Does anyone have manuals or schematics for the Hydro Flame Controller/CO detector?
Thanks
Joe
1995 U-240 GrandVilla 36'
FMC# 18675
Lookingglass, OR
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." - Ed Howdershelt Abintra Press "If you have to lie to gain Support, you are not worth Supporting" "I just want to go somewhere where there's chocolate and nobody talks." - Ynez Reinschmidt
 

Re: LP equip. all working, but Hydro Flame LP Controller and Leak Detector problem

Reply #18 –
Welcome to the ForeForum from another U240 past owner.

Propane detectors do have a finite life. As do CO detectors.

What is the age of your current detector?

If beyond its useful life, just replace it.

Please let us know if you have an electronic valve on your LP vapor port or just the manual valve.  Some of the older propane detectors were both detectors AND provided power to the electronic LP vapor valve.  More recent coaches do not have any electronic valve-- just the manual one.
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020