3116 CAT overheating experience????

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3116 CAT overheating experience????

September 10, 2021, 04:07:24 pm

My motor was pinned at 250f when I caught her. The water pump pulley froze causing the overheating.
Fixed pulley,drove over 1000 miles home. Didn't give me any problems. When hitting the gas pedal hard at low speeds she would puff a little black smoke. That's it.
Called the CAT dealer today and the service manager said that in his experience severe damage happens at 235 and even though I can't see it, the motor is probably cooked. I'm driving her 4k miles round trip soon and he said not to try it.
Thoughts? Experiences?

Re: 3116 CAT overheating experience????

Reply #1 – September 10, 2021, 04:39:40 pm

Though I have never had my Caterpillar 3116 that hot, the options are:

Keep running it-- probably the right answer unless your travel is on such a tight schedule that you absolutely HAVE to have it 100% reliable.

Do a Preventive Overhaul. Lots of $$$$. How much is piece of mind worth???

Much of the "what damage was done" depends on whether it was at 250 degrees F for just an instant or for 10+ miles. Do you know how long the temperature gauge was pegged before you shut it down?

Re: 3116 CAT overheating experience????

Reply #2 – September 10, 2021, 04:53:54 pm

The black smoke is unburned fuel. If the rings has froze or the pistons had galled it would be blue smoke. Like Brett said keep driving it. Any shop including a dealer is trying to make a living and advice would be "let's rebuild it"

Re: 3116 CAT overheating experience????

Reply #3 – September 10, 2021, 05:30:37 pm

The 250 degrees may be high as the dash readings are usually high. You have a parent bore block and as such, they will tolerate higher heat than a wet sleeved engine. As Craneman says, black smoke is fuel. You could do a products of combustion test in your coolant to see if your head gasket is leaking and also a blowby test to see if it's higher than normal.

Naturally and exactly like the Detroit video mentions, the shop wants your $$, as much as they can squeeze out of you.

You could drive it and then send in an oil sample to Blackstone to see if there is metal or anything else in the oil.

The higher the altitude, the more black smoke you get out the exhaust, especially in a mechanical engine. I would not worry about it.

If there is a problem, it won't take long to show up but betting it's fine.

Pierce

Re: 3116 CAT overheating experience????

Reply #4 – September 10, 2021, 05:38:52 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – September 10, 2021, 04:39:40 pm

Though I have never had my Caterpillar 3116 that hot, the options are:

Keep running it-- probably the right answer unless your travel is on such a tight schedule that you absolutely HAVE to have it 100% reliable.

Do a Preventive Overhaul. Lots of $$$$. How much is piece of mind worth???

Much of the "what damage was done" depends on whether it was at 250 degrees F for just an instant or for 10+ miles. Do you know how long the temperature gauge was pegged before you shut it down?

I'm not sure how long it was pegged. It was hot enough to where I could hear the water boiling and she sprayed out antifreeze.
I think I'm just going to run it. The guy at the stealership said "I don't think from what your telling me that I would take the gamble." (Same info you guys have)
He was saying that a rebuild complete would be 30k! I mentioned used motors and he said "they are all gone....any that are left are awfully tired."
This is my home in about 2 weeks. I think I'll just run it. Worst case scenario I put about 10k into a used motor and install.

Re: 3116 CAT overheating experience????

Reply #5 – September 10, 2021, 06:01:14 pm

How much coolant did you loose. Does the engine pull as well as it did before.

Re: 3116 CAT overheating experience????

Reply #6 – September 10, 2021, 06:18:50 pm

That's a fairly stout motor, I base that on a fleet of tandem and 5 yard dump trucks with that motor. We ran them for 8 years before replacement and if those municipal mercenaries couldn't break them. With a 12 ft snowplow on the front and a loaded 8 cuyd steel sander in back these people were doing power stall and launch's. Extended idling, they went days without being shut down cos you could check the oil without shutting them down.

Re: 3116 CAT overheating experience????

Reply #7 – September 10, 2021, 08:43:15 pm

Quote from: oldguy – September 10, 2021, 06:01:14 pm

How much coolant did you loose. Does the engine pull as well as it did before.

Lost the entire overflow but there was still coolant in the box with the window.
Not sure about the power.

Re: 3116 CAT overheating experience????

Reply #8 – September 10, 2021, 09:27:12 pm

It sounds like you didn't loose a lot of water. I would take it for a drive,
warm it up and if it runs good and has lots of power you should be alright.

Re: 3116 CAT overheating experience????

Reply #9 – September 10, 2021, 09:58:07 pm

Quote from: Brettforfreedom – September 10, 2021, 08:43:15 pm

Lost the entire overflow but there was still coolant in the box with the window.
Not sure about the power.

If your instrument panel is like ours, the steering wheel is in the way of all the warning lights and even the turn signal indicator light. When we bought our U300, it threw the hydraulic belt in just a few miles. I never saw the warning light until the DDEC shut the engine down. I'm average height but never can adjust the wheel where I'm happy driving it and being able to see the row of warning lights at the same time.

Pierce

Re: 3116 CAT overheating experience????

Reply #10 – September 10, 2021, 10:09:23 pm

Did your buzzers(engine temp & tranny temp)? Did your temp lights come on? I got my 95 3116 hot about 230-240 and the buzzers and lights came on. I had no failure, I was just pushing it to hard on the hills in Tenn. I just pulled over idled the engine for a few minutes, temp went back down, I went on. The only problem I noticed was oil consumption went up( 2qts/1k miles -->> 3-4qts/1k miles). The engine never smoked and still does not. I drove it about a year or so after that just putting the oil in. One day coming home with no warning the oil pressure went down, I had to drive in lower gear to keep oil pressure up. I had an in-frame overhaul done. $3K for engine boring, new sleeves back to CAT standard done in Lufkin,TX, the labor, parts(standard pistons, rings, main & rod bearings, and supplies) with taxes $7K making a total of 10K

The problem is that the aluminum pistons expand and score the cylinder walls. That's it and it does not take much. If you look at my 3116 posts there is a lot of pics and posts about it. If it got that hot you will know it soon. Good Luck, ask if you need help

Pat,

Re: 3116 CAT overheating experience????

Reply #11 – September 10, 2021, 10:44:33 pm

Quote from: pthurman48 – September 10, 2021, 10:09:23 pm

Did your buzzers(engine temp & tranny temp)? Did your temp lights come on? I got my 95 3116 hot about 230-240 and the buzzers and lights came on. I had no failure, I was just pushing it to hard on the hills in Tenn. I just pulled over idled the engine for a few minutes, temp went back down, I went on. The only problem I noticed was oil consumption went up( 2qts/1k miles -->> 3-4qts/1k miles). The engine never smoked and still does not. I drove it about a year or so after that just putting the oil in. One day coming home with no warning the oil pressure went down, I had to drive in lower gear to keep oil pressure up. I had an in-frame overhaul done. $3K for engine boring, new sleeves back to CAT standard done in Lufkin,TX, the labor, parts(standard pistons, rings, main & rod bearings, and supplies) with taxes $7K making a total of 10K

The problem is that the aluminum pistons expand and score the cylinder walls. That's it and it does not take much. If you look at my 3116 posts there is a lot of pics and posts about it. If it got that hot you will know it soon. Good Luck, ask if you need help

Pat,

Did you put a lot of miles on in that year?

Re: 3116 CAT overheating experience????

Reply #12 – September 10, 2021, 10:46:09 pm

Quote from: Brettforfreedom – September 10, 2021, 10:44:33 pm

Did you put a lot of miles on in that year?

The ringer definitely came on as well as the light. How long ago was your rebuild?

Re: 3116 CAT overheating experience????

Reply #13 – September 11, 2021, 12:53:11 pm

Good Morning,
Not many miles in that last year, maybe 6-7K miles. The last trip did it in, it was about 2500 miles. The in-frame overhaul was Oct. 2016. I had 144k miles on it then. I now have 209K miles on it. Last trip to Colorado the engine used 1 3/4 qts. in 2100 miles. Engine is running strong. I am happy I rebuilt the little kitty CAT.
Sorry to tell you bad stuff. I had very little blow-by, no smoke out the exhaust. I noticed a little oil film around one of the exhaust ports. No way to check compression. Remove exhaust manifold and look for difference in the 6 ports. You can see the difference. Here is a few pics of my damage.

Re: 3116 CAT overheating experience????

Reply #14 – September 11, 2021, 02:28:58 pm

Scored cylinders and pistons are the result of oil pressure failure not heat. When your oil pressure went down is when the damage started. It may not have had anything to do with the overheating. If the oil pump had failed from the overheating you would not have driven it afterward.

Re: 3116 CAT overheating experience????

Reply #15 – September 11, 2021, 02:45:49 pm

IF it seems to run the same and isn't using oil or coolant I wouldn't be too worried.
FYI: I installed an EGT gauge on my 3116 after the exhaust manifold gasket blew for the second time. The first time happened with the original massive muffler. The second was with a resonator. It has been a real eye opener. The exhaust temp will easily go above 1400°F just pulling away from a stop sign if I floor it. It runs 700°-1000° when cruising but will shoot up on the hills, even if the cruise is able to maintain speed. I really have to watch it because the EGT might be 1300°+ for some time before the coolant temp gauge even moves. I now very rarely see the coolant temp above 200°. Before having the EGT gauge, the coolant temp was often above 200°, occasionally setting off the alarm especially in the mountains. My EGT's were probably over 1500° when the alarm would go off. My oil consumption has not gone up so maybe my engine didn't get cooked like Pat's, but it couldn't have done it much good.
I realize that the OP's overheat was for a different reason, just wanted to relay my 3116 experience.

Re: 3116 CAT overheating experience????

Reply #16 – September 11, 2021, 03:20:44 pm

Quote from: pthurman48 – September 11, 2021, 12:53:11 pm

Good Morning,
Not many miles in that last year, maybe 6-7K miles. The last trip did it in, it was about 2500 miles. The in-frame overhaul was Oct. 2016. I had 144k miles on it then. I now have 209K miles on it. Last trip to Colorado the engine used 1 3/4 qts. in 2100 miles. Engine is running strong. I am happy I rebuilt the little kitty CAT.
Sorry to tell you bad stuff. I had very little blow-by, no smoke out the exhaust. I noticed a little oil film around one of the exhaust ports. No way to check compression. Remove exhaust manifold and look for difference in the 6 ports. You can see the difference. Here is a few pics of my damage.

I could be wrong, however in mine the oil consumption seems to be about the same as yours.
Why would a new/rebuilt motor go through oil other than the break in period? Is that just a characteristic of the 3116?
I'm going to change the oil in mine and hope for the best. I'll probably pit Archoil in her as well. (I like to take good mechanical care of my stuff)

Re: 3116 CAT overheating experience????

Reply #17 – September 11, 2021, 03:22:19 pm

Quote from: Dave Larsen – September 11, 2021, 02:45:49 pm

IF it seems to run the same and isn't using oil or coolant I wouldn't be too worried.
FYI: I installed an EGT gauge on my 3116 after the exhaust manifold gasket blew for the second time. The first time happened with the original massive muffler. The second was with a resonator. It has been a real eye opener. The exhaust temp will easily go above 1400°F just pulling away from a stop sign if I floor it. It runs 700°-1000° when cruising but will shoot up on the hills, even if the cruise is able to maintain speed. I really have to watch it because the EGT might be 1300°+ for some time before the coolant temp gauge even moves. I now very rarely see the coolant temp above 200°. Before having the EGT gauge, the coolant temp was often above 200°, occasionally setting off the alarm especially in the mountains. My EGT's were probably over 1500° when the alarm would go off. My oil consumption has not go up so maybe my engine didn't get cooked like Pat's, but it couldn't have done it much good.
I realize that the OP's overheat was for a different reason, just wanted to relay my 3116 experience.

Does the resonater help Temps? How hard was it to install the gauge?

Re: 3116 CAT overheating experience????

Reply #18 – September 11, 2021, 03:52:17 pm

With our Cummins C8.3, we never press throttle to floor, aka WOT, wide open throttle. Always drive up hills by EGT and tach, downshifting to keep from overheating engine. Some mountain climbs are 30mph at 3^rd gear with all temps staying under 1000 & 200 degrees. Never use cruise on hills up or down.

EGT temps vary widely for same engine load, depending on where the pyrometer probe is inserted.

Re: 3116 CAT overheating experience????

Reply #19 – September 11, 2021, 04:29:00 pm

With our Detroit and living in the mountains, I'm always at WOT until the temp gauge passes 195 and then I shift down and back off the throttle to keep temp from going over 200 degrees no matter how many times I have to shift down. Our fuel cutoff is 2130 rpm and I run up against it if climbing in 2nd or 3rd (4 speed) This is only in summer with high ambient temp. With the two cycle, there is no worry about EGT as they are always low in all two strokes.

Pierce

Re: 3116 CAT overheating experience????

Reply #20 – September 11, 2021, 05:51:25 pm

Quote from: Brettforfreedom – September 11, 2021, 03:22:19 pm

Does the resonater help Temps? How hard was it to install the gauge?

I replaced the muffler with a resonator before adding the gauge so I don't know. I just know that the muffler isn't the problem. I drilled and tapped the new exhaust manifold before installation, so that was easy. IIRC, the probe is appx 1" upstream from the turbo.
Re flooring it: that was just a test to see how fast the egt went up, not standard operating procedure. I do have many engines on the farm that spend 95%+ of their time running WOT so I'm not afraid to do it.
Re cruise: I am able to use the cruise much less now that I know the egt.

Re: 3116 CAT overheating experience????

Reply #21 – September 11, 2021, 06:19:54 pm

Here is from Banks, a quote on turbine INLET temps. Exhaust manifold probe readings will be slightly higher.

"So the big question is, what constitutes excessive EGT? If everything is working properly, 1250º to 1300º F. is a safe turbine inlet temperature, even for sustained running, mile after mile. Above 1300º F. things can start to get edgy. Remember, excessive EGT damage is cumulative. Over 1400º F., you're usually gambling against a stacked deck and it's only a matter of time until you lose. The higher the EGT, the shorter that time will be."

As far as installing the probe after the turbo, here is another Banks quote:

"Whether the pyrometer thermocouple is mounted before or after the turbine is usually a matter of finding a suitable mounting location, or of convenience. It should be noted that when the EGT is measured after the turbine, the turbine outlet temperature at full throttle or under a heavy load typically would be 200º to 300º F. lower than the EGT measured in the exhaust manifold."

Pierce

Re: 3116 CAT overheating experience????

Reply #22 – September 11, 2021, 06:55:40 pm

Quote from: Dave Larsen – September 11, 2021, 05:51:25 pm

I replaced the muffler with a resonator before adding the gauge so I don't know. I just know that the muffler isn't the problem. I drilled and tapped the new exhaust manifold before installation, so that was easy. IIRC, the probe is appx 1" upstream from the turbo.
Re flooring it: that was just a test to see how fast the egt went up, not standard operating procedure. I do have many engines on the farm that spend 95%+ of their time running WOT so I not afraid to do it.
Re cruise: I am able to use the cruise much less now that I know the egt.

Did the resonator add any power vs. The muffler?

Re: 3116 CAT overheating experience????

Reply #23 – September 11, 2021, 09:08:58 pm

Quote from: Brettforfreedom – September 11, 2021, 06:55:40 pm

Did the resonator add any power vs. The muffler?

Maybe a tiny bit. Also nice weight reduction and the floor above it in the bedroom isn't warm/hot when we stop.

Re: 3116 CAT overheating experience????

Reply #24 – September 12, 2021, 09:52:37 am

Quote from: Dave Larsen – September 11, 2021, 09:08:58 pm

Maybe a tiny bit. Also nice weight reduction and the floor above it in the bedroom isn't warm/hot when we stop.

I just did mine a few weeks ago, I don't know about more power, but, it does seem to spool up to power quicker. Exhaust note is unchanged at idle and only has more of growl when loaded, not really even louder than before just different tone..

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