2000, 2001 slide delamination

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2000, 2001 slide delamination

February 20, 2022, 02:11:24 pm

So during my recent slide bladder replacement I became painfully aware of the 2001 slide in service short comings. I have been hesitant to talk about it but feel that this is good information for everyone. I must first and foremost say that I'm not saying to follow or do what I have done, just this is what I did with my prior experiences applied to it. There is always a different way to do anything and generally I choose a less travel path for some reason.

The 2001 slide on my coach has never been used during my entire ownership. I basically hot wired to close it and opened and close at home during flooring replacement the same way. The computer was damaged and has been shipped out and returned for HWH. Works great now. I taped it closed the entire time till last week at the installation of the bladder. Thank you Jim and Kieth for the help.

So prior with the slide closed I never gave much thought about the delamination or any leaks being taped closed. Well when we pulled the side out the cat was out of the box. The top was at least 80% delaminated sides were both good some how and bottom was 40% delaminated. Well there was no putting it back in literally because now it was bigger than the hole it came out of. IMO does not need to be addressed until slide removal as long as the lock pin holes are good and sealed.

The slide was constructed over a steel frame with the fiberglass attached to it with what looks like Butyl adhesive applied from a caulking gun. There is visible seams along both side were it was glued together. That was in surprising good condition. I eventually removed as much as possible of the butyl adhesive with a home made 24 inch long putty knife with the edge turned down to accommodate removal on one side, generally only still sticking to one side. Extra long needle nose pliers too. So the top was drooping a inch or more and the upper shin was loose because of this. It allowed over three inches access to open up and facilitate cleaning and work in the area. All the Butyl on the foam blocks inserted between the frame were loose and the foam had melted away from the butyl. Worthless. I literally spent days removing the Butyl and cleaning up the rusted surface with the failed painted frame. IMO if you have a 2000-2001 you must check your area around the upper lock pins. They either have been repaired prior or need to be. With the awning disconnected and your slide opened you can inspect. cleaning can be accomplished IMO with slide installed and not addressing any delamination till slide removed in the future. The area around the locks is not supported well and can be flexed up enough to accommodate cleaning. Small flat screwdriver. Our was so bad there was spider webs in the rear one. I cleaned and applied a liberal amount of RTV157. Once cured it is very difficult to remove. I weighted the area for several days to allow a full cure. Also while your there this is a great time to clean the drains in the bottom of the lock pin holes. They go to a drain line and exit at the bottom on the slide near the center at the lower corner. Mine had 50% full of mud dauber nests probably.

So once the holes around the lock pins is resolved and cured I worked at taking the drooping bow out of the top. Mine had a 1/4x2" flat plate installed with a preloaded 1/2 inch in it to help with the bow. Unknown if this was original but it looked like it was. Mine still had a excessive amount of droop. So since I had so much loose fiberglass on top I took a high lift farm jack and removed the looped end and cut a length of tubing to side over the jack. This allowed me to push with some force. So when bending metal one must over bend to allow for spring back. Proceed at your own risk! I pushed the top up over three inches above alignment to achieve zero downward bow. Was too scared to go any more and upper skin was starting to be tensioned. I used a aluminum I beam along the floor to distribute the loads out. So when finished I left the center jack in position to support additional load to be applied later. So now everything is close to were I would like it but the fiberglass top is completely loose. My plan from day one was to use expanding spray foam and secure the top. I've used a ton of this stuff and have come accustomed to it. (Never underestimate the power of the Foam) its a adhesive and fireproofing fire block. Great stuff. BUT as its name says expanding. You only get one chance and there is no redo with it. My plan was to stack three 3x6 inch steel tubes 3/8 inch thick IE very heaving to keep the top straight and prevent warping up. This was about the time I tore my thumb nail off prepping to move those beams. I staged them on the fork lift forks so once it was foamed we could quickly place to control expansion. I used a rust converter chemical using a piece of scotchbrite as a applicator tied to the end of my prior puddy knife. Next day Jim came over to assist in the foam process. I added a extension to my foam gun. We were able to foam the entire top area. I've used this foam with the blue foam foretravel used and had great results other than removal once cured. When using in large area such as the top area I like to extend my cure time while being controlled or clamped. We started on the forward side to almost the end then back filled from the end to were we stopped. Total foam time under three minutes. I've placed some 3/4 partial board I had and then place beams to weigh down and control the top. They were quite heavy and we decided two would be sufficient. Very straight and no bow. I left it like that for several days. Also note slide was on a pallet and sitting on ground. After a couple of days I lifted up and did repair to the bottom. And clamped. Aluminum I beam still in place to support top center. I also took the 157 RTV and sealed around the edge of the fiberglass to the metal frame to prevent any future water from finding its way in. Also while I had it up installed like 22 countersunk 10/32 screws underneath next to the inside of the slide opening to secure the loose ends. Also spray foamed and sealed. So up to this point I had not recognized the upper bow in the floor. Once it was in the hole it became apparent it had to be addressed

So I bowed a little putting the beam on the ceiling and pushing on it but didn't feel comfortable going very much and the floor was yelling at me to stop. Hence the lower guide pin and also the additional weight of the dinette and couch will also help. Installed slide.

So as a side note our coach has always held onto the smell of Arkansas and during all this I have decided it was the leakage do to the aft slide pin for many years. If you stick your nose in the aft slide window it can be smelled but the laminated slide is no longer pumping contaminated air back and forth into the coach. 20/20 hindsite could of been bad for our health also. Glad we are well and it is sealed up tightly as we can. This last trip to Reno we both mentioned less odor. So far I wouldn't change what or how we did it other than sooner. Another point mentioned in the bladder DIY but worth mentioning is the seal around the opening of the coach. With the bladder remove I applied the 157 between the aluminum extrusion and the coach. With the lock clip installed I applied another layer of 157 between the lock clip and the fiberglass to prevent any moisture or dirt accumulating in the newly created crevice. I'll give some feedback in twenty years or sooner if it fails. Keeping the water out is the most important preventive action one can take.

If you have or are considering purchasing a 2000,2001 coach this should be recognized and mentally prepared for. Although it didn't cost a lot to repair for me it was very labor intensive. Also IMO doesn't need to be addressed till the slide is removed, BUT check your lock pins for delamination to prevent water leaks and spiders too. Be aware of possible bowed structure and leaks associated with it. Unfortunately the upper bow will channel in water because of the bow. If in doubt close the slide during any water accumulation. The outside edge will not be bowed. Sorry for the long read.
Scott

Re: 2000, 2001 slide delamination

Reply #1 – February 20, 2022, 02:29:49 pm

Where did you get the lead bars? All the lead I acquired in doing demolition is now melted into Rock Cod sinkers.

Re: 2000, 2001 slide delamination

Reply #2 – February 20, 2022, 02:32:15 pm

Thanks for the detailed write up. I too have 2001 36 U320. Only have had it for 5 months and the slide isn't functioning. I believe it to be hydraulic motor and possibly locking pins. I have a date with FT to bring her in late March for fixing and a few other things. I too like to overbuild so to never have to again. If you have more pics I'd like to see your process. Cheers

Re: 2000, 2001 slide delamination

Reply #3 – February 20, 2022, 02:50:53 pm

Quote from: craneman – February 20, 2022, 02:29:49 pm

Where did you get the lead bars? All the lead I acquired in doing demolition is now melted into Rock Cod sinkers.

Ive got about five hundred pounds and have had for many years. Don't recall. Lol

Re: 2000, 2001 slide delamination

Reply #4 – February 20, 2022, 04:21:32 pm

In the past I was able to get small quantities (like a 5 gallon pail full of lead wheel weights) from Walmart Tire Express.
But, when I wanted a large quantity of clean lead I got it (for free) from a company or two that used lead to balance their paper machinery rolls.
Just a couple of free sources.

Re: 2000, 2001 slide delamination

Reply #5 – February 20, 2022, 04:55:45 pm

1999, 2000 and some 2001 years coaches all have some degree of delaminating In slide our due to the reasons you point out.
I had Ours fixed at Xtreme, and MOT replaced slide bladder at that time Dewes at MOT fixed the bow in slide at a later visit

Re: 2000, 2001 slide delamination

Reply #6 – February 20, 2022, 07:29:56 pm

This is a known issue with the first gen slides. I had both of mine fixed at Xtreme a number of years ago. It will roll the bladder sooner or later if you do not fix it. The bow in the center is an issue true but HWH had me put a third metal grabber in the center to pull it up and that got rid of the water leak and made the top tight to the bladder across the whole top of the slide.

Re: 2000, 2001 slide delamination

Reply #7 – February 20, 2022, 07:30:13 pm

Delamination is also a problem in 2002 and possibly later coaches. I had mine fixed at Xtreme. Did not have a bow/sag problem.

Rich

Re: 2000, 2001 slide delamination

Reply #8 – February 20, 2022, 10:42:30 pm

So I was kind of thinking that my slide repair really didn't cost a lot of money and it didn't. But the bladder was $1900, computer repair was $500, modifications to the control system and bigger air compressor $1000. Sure am glad I didn't have to pay shop rates for all the work. I genuinely hope all that have these year coaches double check there delamination issues around the lock holes if nothing else. Those that have a conventional dinette could easily have a vertical post at the seat back to prevent any bowing. This isn't a option with the J dinette.
Scott

Re: 2000, 2001 slide delamination

Reply #9 – February 21, 2022, 12:42:43 pm

Good writeup Scott,

thanks for the detailed info, and will inspect our 2001 when I get around to it one day soon. Ours goes in and out fine, But now that I fully understand the function of the bladder, alt compressor Vac/Press function. I do not think our is working as it was designed. Ive chosen to not use it until I can test all parts for full functionality.

Re: 2000, 2001 slide delamination

Reply #10 – February 21, 2022, 01:58:10 pm

Quote from: mkc1962 – February 21, 2022, 12:42:43 pm

Good writeup Scott,

thanks for the detailed info, and will inspect our 2001 when I get around to it one day soon. Ours goes in and out fine, But now that I fully understand the function of the bladder, alt compressor Vac/Press function. I do not think our is working as it was designed. Ive chosen to not use it until I can test all parts for full functionality.

Nice thing about new seal is that its in contact even when relaxed ( no pressure or vacuum applied). I still sorting out air issues and look forward to a stand alone slide cycle out and in. Will get resolved in the next month. I genuinely look forward to easy proper careless stress less operation

Re: 2000, 2001 slide delamination

Reply #11 – February 21, 2022, 02:04:36 pm

Hmmm. When my new bladder is deflated I have a 1/4" visible air gap all around slide. I check for that before I operate slide in our out.
When I was t getting good deflation due to weak pump and bladder was contacting slide during operation, that was not a good thing. Room wouldn't move, or went in and out unevenly or made horrible sounds.

Re: 2000, 2001 slide delamination

Reply #12 – February 21, 2022, 02:13:57 pm

Quote from: Tim Fiedler – February 21, 2022, 02:04:36 pm

Hmmm. When my new bladder is deflated I have a 1/4" visible air gap all around slide. I check for that before I operate slide in our out.
When I was t getting good deflation due to weak pump and bladder was contacting slide during operation, that was not a good thing. Room wouldn't move, or went in and out unevenly or made horrible sounds.

Does your bladder have the retracting fin or when deflated is it flat?
Fist picture show bump from fin at hose connection vacuumed down and second shows seam but is also netral pressure relaxed showing the seal fin
With vacuum there is at least a 1/4" gap

Re: 2000, 2001 slide delamination

Reply #13 – February 21, 2022, 02:22:30 pm

I'll have to look. It is newer style, about 4 years old.
May be flat when deflated for slide extension

Re: 2000, 2001 slide delamination

Reply #14 – February 21, 2022, 02:26:59 pm

HWH said it would take 16" to retract but mine actually needed 18" to fully retract. Folds over inward. I was surprised the corners were the first to pull back. Looking forward to many years of service

Re: 2000, 2001 slide delamination

Reply #15 – February 22, 2022, 10:47:54 pm

Mine is like Tim's although I believe it may be an original bladder. The original owner never replaced it in 10 years and we will have owned it 11 years in a couple of months and have not replaced it. We always see daylight before moving the slide, always, or it does not move. A 1/4", maybe more in some places is what is there when deflated. It never squeals. The manifold and the bladder hold pressure until the HWH tank pressure falls below about 15 psi which takes 2-3 months.

I think the bond line failures Scott is talking about are not uncommon but probably not universal. Just like bulkhead failures, some, but not all. It may have a lot to do with where your coach spent most of it's life. Heat and humidity may play a role in this problem.

And the same with the bowing of the inside top and bottom of the slide structure. When I redid my carpet the plastic rub bar along the inside bottom edge of the slide that made contact with the floor covering as it slid in was curved more towards the floor in the middle of the slide than at the ends. Maybe to have less contact pressure towards the ends or maybe because the slide was built with a slight inward crown originally. Maybe that gives a bit more relief to the bladder in the middle. With the slide out, there is maybe 1/8" more space in the middle than at the ends between the bottom of the slide and the opening. A credit card or thin spatula blade will not slip between the bladder and the slide. I have not checked the upper gap but suspect it will be the same.

Mine doesn't leak. I am not prone to fixing things that don't seem to be a problem.

Re: 2000, 2001 slide delamination

Reply #16 – February 23, 2022, 06:32:55 pm

Quote from: Roger & Susan in Home2 – February 22, 2022, 10:47:54 pm

I believe it may be an original bladder. The manifold and the bladder hold pressure until the HWH tank pressure falls below about 15 psi which takes 2-3 months.

I agree dont mess with it. I do like the idea of a pressure relief valve and verifying operation pressure to be below 14PSI. Its a old bladder and has performed better than most I would think. When you are performing your annual maintenance on your slide and have the upper awning relaxed out of the way with the slide extended you can easily measure your upper bow and while cleaning and polishing the slide top. Clean the drain holes out of the slide pin holes and verify drains are not plugged. Inspect fiberglass around holes for proper seal to the aluminum lock pin block. If everything is good reinstall awning and your good for another year. While the slide is out you also can lube the lower actuator pivot point. All Mine were bone dry
Scott

Re: 2000, 2001 slide delamination

Reply #17 – February 23, 2022, 08:46:10 pm

My bladder is usually at 11-12 psi. There are rubber bushings in the pin holes (upper ones for sure). When they wear the slide will rattle, they may be OK, just lube with a silicone based grease. I did blow out my drain lines from the bottom up, very messy. When cleaning the coach I pay close attention to the surfaces where the bladder impacts the slide surface, keep it clean and polished. I am not sure if there is a wax to use or not use. I have been using WaxWashAll for 10 years.

My slide bladder life is outside the typical experience. Our coach spent 10 years in a temperate CA inland location and then 11 years in MN. Much of our travel time has been in the winter months so it has not seen extremes of heat and humidity. When we were last at HWH to get a magnetic sensor replace the senior tech that worked on our coach commented on the age of the bladder saying location of the coach and careful operation were important.

I am glad to see someone dig into this as deeply as you are. I will be at Xtreme in a couple months and will ask about the bow they have seen in slides they have repaired.

Re: 2000, 2001 slide delamination

Reply #18 – February 23, 2022, 08:53:07 pm

Dewex at MOT repaired my bowed slide - Xtreme did the delam years ago

Dewes is the best tech at MOT, Sanson is second best in my opinion.

Re: 2000, 2001 slide delamination

Reply #19 – February 27, 2022, 09:57:05 am

Quote from: Roger & Susan in Home2 – February 23, 2022, 08:46:10 pm

There are rubber bushings in the pin holes (upper ones for sure). When they wear the slide will rattle, they may be OK, just lube with a silicone based grease. I did blow out my drain lines from the bottom up, very messy.

Roger your coach is 45 coaches newer than mine. So the upper lock receivers on mine do not have the bushings. Mine hasn't rattled or squeaked. Yet. Im confident when we picked up coach and stowed the slide receivers were full of mud dauber nests. Didn't effect them closing , just rammed the nests to the bottom.
So the hose you blew threw is 3/16 diameter line maybe and it is going into a 1 inch receiver. You will literally need to vacuum and physically dig the junk out. The air will not be able to clear the area more than maybe 20%. Also the air is ported from the side of the receiver at the bottom also too accommodate ceiling in cabinets.
Scott

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