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Topic: Stuck in Montana  (Read 1029 times) previous topic - next topic

Stuck in Montana

Hello Foretravel Verans...it's Mike Bondi...fellow Foretravel owner...but a newbie.  We have a 2004 40 foot custom U295 that has a wheelchair lift for my wife.  Our generator keeps bringing up a fault and shutting off.  I do a hard re-set and it restarts but then wits again.  Also, my chassis batteries drop below 9 when driving but the alternator is new. 

Backstory:  Our inverter was acting up...so we replaced it with a Xantrex Inverter/ Charger Freedom series 3000.  We went with the Xantrex cause we were told the new  ant Rex inverter would communicate with our monitor in the kitchen.  It does not.  I  also put in 4 100 amp Battleborn batteries (for house power).  Our chassis batteries were at end of life and not holding a charge after trickle charging them, so I also put in 3 new Red Top Engine batteries.  Can't let my wife know what I just spent. 

last year when we first got the Foretravel, our alternator went out so we replaced it...so I'm fairly confident the alternator is good.  However, as we drove to Montana, our chassis battery dropped from 12 to 9 (in the red zone).  I turned on the booster to use house batteries with the geni running and we shot back to 12.  But then the generator turned off and gave me a fault.  I shut down generator...pushed the mains "off" to allow it to reset...and the generator restarted and ran for a bit (to allow us to get to Missoula).  But wondering what the heck is going on.  Do I need a different (from stock) alternator due to the Battleborn house batteries?  Any ideas on how to troubleshoot why the alternator is not keeping chassis batteries charged?  Or why the generator keeps shutting down?  Plenty of oil in the geni.  Sorry to bug...just trying to reach out in case anyone has some ideas.  We'll be pulling in to iWest Glacier RV park tonight and will be there for the next 3 days.  Thanks! 
2004 Foretravel U295 40' Custom w/wheelchair lift

Life is a journey. Enjoy it.

Re: Stuck in Montana

Reply #1 –
Because Li batteries can accept very amp charges, they are very hard on alternators-- causing them to run at max output which causes max temperatures in the alternator.

Others, more familiar with Li batteries and how to moderate alternator output will give you the specifics.
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Stuck in Montana

Reply #2 –
On your generator panel what fault is being displayed? Would have to open generator door to see.
Alternator may be a failed sensing wire? I would check output at Alternator and possible use a jumper across sense post to output. Failed Isolator could be at fault? Battery leads both positive and ground can be your problem also. Does the generator operate normal when not using the boost function?

Re: Stuck in Montana

Reply #3 –
Dear stuck: You have had a lot of changes to your coach electrical system. If it were my coach I would consider each change as an algebra equation with several unknowns. The only way I would know to approach it would be one equation at a time and work on one unknown at a time.

Do you have the Foretravel manual with electrical diagrams? Do you have a multi meter that can check voltage and resistance? I would start with the start batteries making sure all connections are clean, tight and conform to the wiring diagrams. Check voltage on each battery and then charge them individually with an external charger to full charge. Many Foretravels don't come with a means of charging start batteries when parked. They do run down while sitting even if the coach is plugged in and the inverter-charger is maintaining the house batteries. If you have a TrikLStart to maintain start batteries it should be replaced by AmpLStart and the optional relay for use with lithium house batteries. The higher voltage of lithium house batteries can fool alternator into thinking the start batteries are fully charged.

A 400 Ah lithium bank can overtax an alternator since they can accept a huge charge. That's why many install a battery to battery charge controller in place of a standard isolator. It limits the alternator load to 30 to 60 amps depending on the B2B design. 

If your alternator requires both sense and excite wires it's not uncommon for the sense wire to be incorrectly installed. Lots of posts in forum about measuring output of alternator to both house and chassis batteries.

You don't have to solve all the equations at once. If you resolve start batteries and alternator then you can get down the road to fight the good fight another day.
1998 36 foot U270 Build No. 5328 WTFE, 900 watts solar, Victron controller, B2B, bat monitor, 600 AMPH lithium with 2018 Chevy Colorado toad, SKP #110239, Motorcade #17781, 2021 Escape 17B for when Coach is broken down and campsites are too small, retired and full-timer since Dec. 2020. Part of RV family since 1963.

Re: Stuck in Montana

Reply #4 –
Real McCoy got it right there I think. Check things one at a time. I would not try to charge lithium batteries with the alternator directly. I have 600 amps of lithium batteries and I do not charge through the alternator at all. I charge either through my inverter charger which is a victron system, or through my solar MpPT charger. The alternator on my coach only charges to start batteries and runs the other systems that are energized when the key is in the ignition.

Now for your generator which is a different thing altogether. The first thing you need to do as said is to check your fault lights. That'll either be in the generator compartment in the front, or like mine under the driver's seat compartment. That will tell you some things. The other thing to do is check and make sure that the system is cooling. The squirrel cage fan is run by the generator which means you have to be producing 110 volts to run it. You may have a airlock in your cooling system for the generator engine. You didn't say which generator you have but the first thing I would do is check and make sure the fan is running and bleed the air if there's any out of the generator. Remember the thermostat won't open for a while so you'll have to run it for a bit. For me it was always that. Every once in awhile I still have to bleed things through although I haven't had to do it in a while. Also make sure that the circuit breaker is on, cycle it to be sure. There's also the circuit breaker for the cooling fan. Make sure that is also cycled through.
My guess is you have two different issues going on.
Good luck and let us know what you find.
Bob
'99 U320 40 WTFE
Build #5462,
1500 Watts Solar 600 amp Victron lithium
2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland Hemi
Instagram bobfnbw
Retired

Re: Stuck in Montana

Reply #5 –
We are two miles from you at Apgar Campground. 
Justin & Cathy Byrd
1995 U280 "Old Faithful"
36' Build #4673
C8.3 Cummins
Allison MD3060R 6 speed - retarder
Powertech 10KW  4cyl Kubota

Re: Stuck in Montana

Reply #6 –
In the past, My alternator/Battery charging problems all reverted back to a Bad Isolator.  ^.^d 
The selected media item is not currently available.
Gerry & Brenda
CHARLOTTE HARBOR, FL
1994 Grand Villa - # 4466
U300 Unihome - 6V92 Detroit
4 speed Allison - Jake Brake

Re: Stuck in Montana

Reply #7 –
Quote from: mbondi –
it's Mike Bondi...fellow Foretravel owner...but a newbie.

Can't let my wife know what I just spent. 

last year when we first got the Foretravel, our alternator went out so we replaced it...so I'm fairly confident the alternator is good.

Hello Mike.

Coward.

Why?  For all of the reasons listed above, but as always, Trust but Verify.

And yes, your engine driven alternator isn't meant to run wide open for extended lengths of time.

Regarding your gen-set: Check the really obvious things first, oil AND water.
1992 Foretravel Grand Villa
U225 SBID Build No. 4134
1986 Rockwood Driftwood
1968 S.I.A.T.A. Spring
1962 Studebaker Lark
1986 Honda VF700C
1983 Honda VF750C
Charlie, the Dog was broken out of jail 24 Oct 2023
N1RPN
AA1OH (H)e who must be obeyed.

Re: Stuck in Montana

Reply #8 –
Quote from: Old Toolmaker –
Hello Mike.

Coward.

Why?  For all of the reasons listed above, but as always, Trust but Verify.

And yes, your engine driven alternator isn't meant to run wide open for extended lengths of time.

Regarding your gen-set: Check the really obvious things first, oil AND water.



Coward? 🤣
Ha-Ha!

I would call it "good choice"  "smart guy!"

Using a "need to know basis"

Hope he has his charging problem solved....he hasn't replied back.


Justin & Cathy Byrd
1995 U280 "Old Faithful"
36' Build #4673
C8.3 Cummins
Allison MD3060R 6 speed - retarder
Powertech 10KW  4cyl Kubota

Re: Stuck in Montana

Reply #9 –
I don't think I am a coward but I do believe is discretion.
My DW is a lighter sleeper, a better shot with almost any weapon than me, and has more weapons than me.
I do believe in caution when it comes to antagonizing her
Nitehawk,  Demolition Lady, & our NEW master, Zippy the speeding BB cat.
1989 Grand Villa 36' ORED
Oshkosh chassis, 8.2 DD V8
2006 Saturn Vue AWD

Re: Stuck in Montana

Reply #10 –
It is clear to me that some of y'all don't know how uncomfortable the jack knife sofa is to sleep on.
1987 Grand Villa ORED
2001 U320 4010

Not all that wander are lost... but I often am.

Re: Stuck in Montana

Reply #12 –
Is the new alternator a Delco-Remy replacement of the old Leece-Neville? The Leece needs a 12V excitation. So check the Sense and excite wires to make sure they are correct for the type of alternator you have.
Jerry & Nona and Kimeru the cat that thinks she's a dog
1998 36' WTFE U320  #5314 Motorcade #17711
USAF 1975-1995
2019 Subaru Crosstrek 'toad'
2003 Subaru Legacy touring car
jerry Fincher | Flickr

Re: Stuck in Montana

Reply #13 –
We lost a day but all is working now.  Our Alternator was pumping out 24 volts trying to charge the 3 new Red Top Chassis batteries...and the house batteries...but less than 10 volts were reading after the isolator.  The 12 volt alternator kept trying to pump more power to "re-charge" systems but the isolator wasn't allowing the power to get where it was needed.  Something in the isolator was blocking the flow.  We had the system evaluated by Northwest Fleet Service in Kalispell, MT. They were great!  They got us right in...assessed the issue and then bypassed the isolator to allow the alternator to directly charge the chassis batteries and now the alternator is pumping 13.5 and we are getting 13.5 to the chassis batteries.  We'll order a new isolator when we get home but all systems are working now...and we can use the "boost" to recharge the house batteries when driving.  All is good!  Thanks!  I am learning so much from this forum. 
2004 Foretravel U295 40' Custom w/wheelchair lift

Life is a journey. Enjoy it.

Re: Stuck in Montana

Reply #14 –
Quote from: mbondi –
  We'll order a new isolator when we get home but all systems are working now...and we can use the "boost" to recharge the house batteries when driving.
You really need to look at reply #3
"A 400 Ah lithium bank can overtax an alternator since they can accept a huge charge. That's why many install a battery to battery charge controller in place of a standard isolator. It limits the alternator load to 30 to 60 amps depending on the B2B design."

And then call Bay Marine they will walk you through what you need and solar/lithium is what they do. Bay marine gives a Foretravel discount also.

2000 GV320 4010 build #5712  2019-?
1999 Bounder 2000-2008
Bardstown, KY
🥃The Bourbon Capital of the World🥃

Re: Stuck in Montana

Reply #15 –
  $220 with Foreforum discount from Bay Marine
https://baymarinesupply.com/victron-orion-tr-smart-non-isolated-dc-dc-charger.html
Lithium batteries will take a lot of charge at a high amperage and will possibly burn up your Alternator if OEM isolator is not replaced.

Isolator replacement

Don't forget the jumper in pic 2

This info is discussed in many lithium battery installs of which I benefited from reading.

2000 GV320 4010 build #5712  2019-?
1999 Bounder 2000-2008
Bardstown, KY
🥃The Bourbon Capital of the World🥃
 

Re: Stuck in Montana

Reply #16 –
Quote from: mbondi –
bypassed the isolator to allow the alternator to directly charge the chassis batteries and now the alternator is pumping 13.5 and we are getting 13.5 to the chassis batteries.

Full voltage is 14.4 or so volts so your alternator is rolling back the voltage to limit current flow.  In other words, your alternator is running maxed out. 
1992 Foretravel Grand Villa
U225 SBID Build No. 4134
1986 Rockwood Driftwood
1968 S.I.A.T.A. Spring
1962 Studebaker Lark
1986 Honda VF700C
1983 Honda VF750C
Charlie, the Dog was broken out of jail 24 Oct 2023
N1RPN
AA1OH (H)e who must be obeyed.