Losing my mind... Shower will not drain.

Topic: Losing my mind... Shower will not drain. (Read 2699 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Losing my mind... Shower will not drain.

Reply #50 – June 13, 2024, 02:42:23 pm

Quote from: thelazyjays – June 13, 2024, 02:11:41 pm

First we used the back-flow do-hickey to clean the grey tank. Several times. Didn't help. So- we re-snaked all the drains. We cleaned and tested all four AAV.

Sucked the water from the shower. Dumped it in the toilet.
Suddenly a cry from James who was sewer side scratching his head..

"What did you just do??"
"I dumped the shower water in the toilet!"
"Do it again!"
I did it again.
"Well..?" I ask
"That water went straight into the grey tank!"
Huh?
"Well," I said, "you better drain the black tank".

(We had not dumped the black tank during this debacle since we never had enough water in the grey tank to flush the hose.)
He dumps the black tank, while I run hot water in the shower.

And....
OMG. Drain fixed.

#1, the tank flush on the coach is on the black tank, not the grey tank. If that's what you used to backflush, you were backflushing the black tank.

#2 grey tank and black tank are not connected, unless as Chuck states you have the 3rd dump valve modification and have left the other tank dump valves open. There is no way water poured into the toilet would end up in the grey tank plumbing unless it went all the way to a third valve and then backed up into the grey tank through an open grey tank dump valve.

It sounds like you are confusing the black tank dump valve with the grey tank dump valve, which is odd since you've been in the coach for several years.

On the tank sensors, if these are the OEM pressure transducer ones that report to a Javalina tank monitor, yes, those do go bad. Parts are no longer available and the calibration process is a royal pain anyway. You would be wise to consider switching to a SeeLevel system which uses external sensor tapes.

Re: Losing my mind... Shower will not drain.

Reply #51 – June 13, 2024, 02:47:59 pm

Perhaps I haven't had enough coffee or something but, the only thing I can think of that explains your observed issues (and your apparent solution) is that you have somehow confused which tank is which, perhaps someone mislabeled something?
When you dumped water and chemicals down the toilet, it can only go into the black tank, there's no other place to go, because there's no connection between grey and black tanks.
Maybe you can show us a photo of your tank valves & labels?

"What did you just do??"
"I dumped the shower water in the toilet!"
"Do it again!"
I did it again.
"Well..?" I ask
"That water went straight into the grey tank!"

Re: Losing my mind... Shower will not drain.

Reply #52 – June 13, 2024, 02:56:25 pm

Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie – June 13, 2024, 02:34:48 pm

The black and gray tanks are not connected in any way (unless you made the "third dump valve" mod). If the black tank is allowed to get completely full (over-filled), your "warning" will be the toilet will not flush. However, a completely full black tank doesn't prevent the gray tank from dumping, or the sinks and shower from draining.

I don't understand what you think happened to "fix" your problem.

Exactly. I don't understand either. The tanks are labeled. There's a black handle and it definitely will shoot human waste out of it if the hose detaches, the valve handle breaks or there's a cracked hose.
We know all this from experience.
The silver handle is for the grey tank.
We've been dumping the tanks since Oct of 2020. So...
I don't know what to think.

Re: Losing my mind... Shower will not drain.

Reply #53 – June 13, 2024, 03:34:16 pm

Obviously this needs a more critical analysis. But we're playing catch up today but rest assured we will get to the bottom of this.
Our assumption was that they were somehow connected in case of an overflow. Which is weird and gross.
The toilet is a straight shot into the black tank. It's got a ball valve and nothing else so..

When he back filled the grey tank it came up in the shower. Pulling the grey handle allowed us to perform this action- we had a moment when draining the grey tank the fitting for the new flush kit flew off and we had to close the grey handled gate to stop the flow of water. I'll mention that the new toy is of a subpar quality. Especially the clear one. It's made of a thin acrylic and I worry that it won't withstand prolonged use.
He had to spend $80 on two separate pieces at Tacoma RV. We tried calling around and he went to Poulsbo RV and to Camping World before he caved and bought the two separate pieces.

Operationally, we did not mess with the black handle during this time.

We KNOW 💯 that the grey handle is for the grey tank. Cause when we backfilled, we used the grey handle, AND that water came up in the shower.
We know 💯 that the black handle controls sewage. Three separate events over the years has allowed the contents of the black handled tank to spew fecal waste.
(As an aside two of those events happened at the free dump station by my mom's place in Clinton, UT. And boy, ain't that embarrassing. Especially since the second time happened on a Monday afternoon after a long weekend. Ugh.)

Tim, the second occupant was active on this forum and I need to do a deep dive to see if he added a third overflow valve). I have not gone thru the receipts to see if the original occupant upgraded the wastewater management system.
They had Fritz for 20 years and religiously cared for, repaired and upgraded the bus. He was an 8 out of a 10 when Fritz joined our family. His only flaw was superficial exterior decal fading.

So, if it wasn't the tanks being somehow connected it could have been

A) something was blocking the roof air vent. James re-snaked it while I was getting the shop vac.

B) the shop vac removed the clog after I used suction on the shower and the kitchen sink. But that doesn't track. Because it only started working properly after James drained the black tank. He drained the black tank after he heard shower liquid from the toilet appear in the grey tank. He saw the liquid thru the clear plastic of the back-flow flush device.

The gate valve for the black tank is not a perfect seal. It'll drip a drop or two when he goes to dump the tank into the sewer line. I don't know what else to think. There was a drop or two that came from the black handled valve gate when the grey tank was completely full and filling up the shower pan.

While I certainly understand the skepticism, I also appreciate the questions. But we're mostly sane, sober adults who have great powers of observation.

Still- I don't know what to think.
🤔

Re: Losing my mind... Shower will not drain.

Reply #54 – June 13, 2024, 03:50:43 pm

"#2 grey tank and black tank are not connected, unless as Chuck states you have the 3rd dump valve modification and have left the other tank dump valves open. There is no way water poured into the toilet would end up in the grey tank plumbing unless it went all the way to a third valve and then backed up into the grey tank through an open grey tank dump valve."

This.
This is the only way any of this makes sense.

Re: Losing my mind... Shower will not drain.

Reply #55 – June 13, 2024, 04:01:19 pm

Quote from: thelazyjays – June 13, 2024, 03:50:43 pm

"#2 grey tank and black tank are not connected, unless as Chuck states you have the 3rd dump valve modification and have left the other tank dump valves open. There is no way water poured into the toilet would end up in the grey tank plumbing unless it went all the way to a third valve and then backed up into the grey tank through an open grey tank dump valve."

This.
This is the only way any of this makes sense.

Do you have the third dump valve? It would be 100% obvious since it would be a dump gate valve on the portion of dump pipe that extends out of the utility bay wall that you connect the sewer hose to. It would be completely visible AND you would have to operate it to actually empty either tank. It's not something that would have been added behind the bay wall.

Re: Losing my mind... Shower will not drain.

Reply #56 – June 13, 2024, 04:16:00 pm

Quote from: thelazyjays – June 13, 2024, 03:50:43 pm

"#2 grey tank and black tank are not connected, unless as Chuck states you have the 3rd dump valve modification and have left the other tank dump valves open. There is no way water poured into the toilet would end up in the grey tank plumbing unless it went all the way to a third valve and then backed up into the grey tank through an open grey tank dump valve."

This.
This is the only way any of this makes sense.

But it still doesn't answer why your problem went away when you emptied the "black" tank.
You have not mentioned having a 3rd valve, but it should be pretty easy to spot.

They usually look something like this
Recent third dump valve installations (split from another topic)

Re: Losing my mind... Shower will not drain.

Reply #57 – June 13, 2024, 04:25:13 pm

I have followed this since the beginning - and I know you mentioned that there was black sludge on your snake when you would pull it out... Is it possible that whatever was holed up in your pipes finally released and your outside observer thought it was the black tank even though it was the "black stuff" coming out of the gray tank???

I'd be curious if you have a clear adapter on your sewer outlet just what your next gray tank dump looks like... Personally I'd be filling that grey tank with hot water right now hoping to flush out whatever might be in there...

And - I'd probably flush the black tank too - and be overly observant as to which tank and what water is coming out through that clear adapter!!!

Good luck and congrats!

Re: Losing my mind... Shower will not drain.

Reply #58 – June 13, 2024, 05:26:53 pm

Pictures are worth a 1000 words. It would really help us in helping you to figure out this problem.
I'm also thinking you have a 3rd valve in your system.

Re: Losing my mind... Shower will not drain.

Reply #59 – June 13, 2024, 05:57:29 pm

I am presently searching Tim's old posts for anything dump valve-related or waste line plumbing-related.

He did do a slightly "different" repair of the black tank plumbing (added a rubber coupler) at one point, but I didn't see any mention of any third valve addition.

Black Tank Valve Leak

ETA BTW, you can see from the length of waste pipe from the black tank valve to the coach dump connection, that's why it sometimes seems like the black tank valve leaks through a little - it can just be residual effluent in the pipe between the dump connection and the valve. The grey tank valve is much closer to the dump connection. You can also see, at least in a 2003, the grey dump pipe is on the left, but the valve handle will be on the right (and vice-versa for the black tank dump).

Now that just made a lightbulb go off in my head - the grey plumbing and black plumbing join at a tee to then go out the coach dump connection. I don't know the configuration in your 1997, but if you look at that for a 2003 (grey on left, black on right), it's possible heavy black tank material could back into that short length of tee and create a blockage for the grey water dump line. Now why the "head" of the grey tank when full couldn't push it out would be a mystery...

2nd ETA - out of curiosity, you do keep the black tank valve closed unless you need to dump it, correct?

Re: Losing my mind... Shower will not drain.

Reply #60 – June 13, 2024, 07:54:39 pm

Something to add here, the tanks are connected at the vent connection. Not knowing your coach I don't know if that makes any difference.

Re: Losing my mind... Shower will not drain.

Reply #61 – June 13, 2024, 08:59:48 pm

The only place the tanks should be connected is in pipe to the vent in the roof. Perhaps everything you dumped down the sinks/showers backed up past connection of the two tanks to the vent to the roof.

Dumping the black tank would then allow air to enter the previously flooded connection in the pipe to the top of the roof. Created a escape for a flooded vent system. Only thing that makes sense to me.

Re: Losing my mind... Shower will not drain.

Reply #62 – June 13, 2024, 10:39:40 pm

Quote from: thelazyjays – June 13, 2024, 02:56:25 pm

Exactly. I don't understand either. The tanks are labeled. There's a black handle and it definitely will shoot human waste out of it if the hose detaches, the valve handle breaks or there's a cracked hose.
We know all this from experience.
The silver handle is for the grey tank.
We've been dumping the tanks since Oct of 2020. So...
I don't know what to think.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that on our 1997 coach, the SILVER valve is the black tank, and the BLACK valve is the grey tank. I am happy things are working for you again. I think you have confused everyone on this forum. Pictures of your wet bay valves would answer a lot of questions. There are very very few things that end up being mysterious.

Re: Losing my mind... Shower will not drain.

Reply #63 – June 14, 2024, 09:26:06 am

As a side note on the air admittance valves (AAV). Any coach with a vacuflush toilet system (which this 34' was not), wil not have a AAV for the black tank/toilet. It could never achieve vacumn and shut off it did,

Re: Losing my mind... Shower will not drain.

Reply #64 – June 14, 2024, 10:13:59 am

Quote from: Siren – June 13, 2024, 10:39:40 pm

I can tell you with 100% certainty that on our 1997 coach, the SILVER valve (handle) is the black tank, and the BLACK valve (handle) is the grey tank.

In the case of Valterra waste valves, for sure, and probably other brands, the "handle" simply screws on (and off) a threaded rod. Since most of the coaches we deal with on this Forum are getting on in years, it is probable that the waste valve handles have been removed/reinstalled and/or replaced several times by various persons. Because the handles could be inadvertently swapped between valves, or replaced (in a pinch) with a different color, I would not put much faith in identifying which tank is which based solely on the color of the dump valve handle.

Waste Valves & Accessories Archives - Valterra.com

Re: Losing my mind... Shower will not drain.

Reply #65 – June 14, 2024, 10:35:09 am

If the hose you connect to dump the tanks has a clear elbow you can definitely tell what tank you are dumping

Re: Losing my mind... Shower will not drain.

Reply #66 – June 14, 2024, 08:38:51 pm

Quote from: Michelle – June 13, 2024, 05:57:29 pm

I am presently searching Tim's old posts for anything dump valve-related or waste line plumbing-related.

He did do a slightly "different" repair of the black tank plumbing (added a rubber coupler) at one point, but I didn't see any mention of any third valve addition.

Black Tank Valve Leak

ETA BTW, you can see from the length of waste pipe from the black tank valve to the coach dump connection, that's why it sometimes seems like the black tank valve leaks through a little - it can just be residual effluent in the pipe between the dump connection and the valve. The grey tank valve is much closer to the dump connection. You can also see, at least in a 2003, the grey dump pipe is on the left, but the valve handle will be on the right (and vice-versa for the black tank dump).

Now that just made a lightbulb go off in my head - the grey plumbing and black plumbing join at a tee to then go out the coach dump connection. I don't know the configuration in your 1997, but if you look at that for a 2003 (grey on left, black on right), it's possible heavy black tank material could back into that short length of tee and create a blockage for the grey water dump line. Now why the "head" of the grey tank when full couldn't push it out would be a mystery...

2nd ETA - out of curiosity, you do keep the black tank valve closed unless you need to dump it, correct?

Fascinating. I'm going to a look outside and see. I'll take photos but I don't know how to add them to my replies.

We never leave anything open. We don't use our city water connection except to fill the freshwater tank. We never leave the grey or black tanks open.

And I do believe that both tanks come together since there's only one place to hook-up the sewer pipe and it juts out substantially from the tanks and the valve handles.

I think you're on to something tho-

Thank you so much for such diligence in reviewing Tim's old posts. It's very heartening. Plus I need to know Fritz very intimately so the information is invaluable.

Re: Losing my mind... Shower will not drain.

Reply #67 – June 14, 2024, 08:44:21 pm

Quote from: Michelle – June 13, 2024, 05:57:29 pm

I am presently searching Tim's old posts for anything dump valve-related or waste line plumbing-related.

He did do a slightly "different" repair of the black tank plumbing (added a rubber coupler) at one point, but I didn't see any mention of any third valve addition.

Black Tank Valve Leak

ETA BTW, you can see from the length of waste pipe from the black tank valve to the coach dump connection, that's why it sometimes seems like the black tank valve leaks through a little - it can just be residual effluent in the pipe between the dump connection and the valve. The grey tank valve is much closer to the dump connection. You can also see, at least in a 2003, the grey dump pipe is on the left, but the valve handle will be on the right (and vice-versa for the black tank dump).

Now that just made a lightbulb go off in my head - the grey plumbing and black plumbing join at a tee to then go out the coach dump connection. I don't know the configuration in your 1997, but if you look at that for a 2003 (grey on left, black on right), it's possible heavy black tank material could back into that short length of tee and create a blockage for the grey water dump line. Now why the "head" of the grey tank when full couldn't push it out would be a mystery...

2nd ETA - out of curiosity, you do keep the black tank valve closed unless you need to dump it, correct?

I just scrutinized the photo. Ours looks nothing like that. I must find a way to upload a photo since it's probably gonna be the only way to a reasonable explanation.

Re: Losing my mind... Shower will not drain.

Reply #68 – June 15, 2024, 01:33:50 am

Quote from: thelazyjays – June 14, 2024, 08:44:21 pm

I just scrutinized the photo. Ours looks nothing like that. I must find a way to upload a photo since it's probably gonna be the only way to a reasonable explanation.

I struggled with photos until i realized the attach photos option is NOT available with a "quick reply".

Re: Losing my mind... Shower will not drain.

Reply #69 – June 15, 2024, 09:23:38 am

Quote from: thelazyjays – June 14, 2024, 08:38:51 pm

And I do believe that both tanks come together since there's only one place to hook-up the sewer pipe and it juts out substantially from the tanks and the valve handles.

The two tanks come together into one discharge pipe only after the gate valves (dump valves). The tanks are not "combined" until both valves are open at the same time. Only other place connected in any form is the vent pipe to the roof. That combination point is above the top of the grey/black tanks.

Re: Losing my mind... Shower will not drain.

Reply #70 – June 15, 2024, 09:24:03 am

Quote from: evantwheeler – June 15, 2024, 01:33:50 am

I struggled with photos until i realized the attach photos option is NOT available with a "quick reply".

If you start the quick reply and do "preview", it should bring up the full editor where you can scroll down and attach photos.

Re: Losing my mind... Shower will not drain.

Reply #71 – June 15, 2024, 09:25:32 am

Quote from: AC7880 – June 15, 2024, 09:23:38 am

The two tanks come together into one discharge pipe only after the gate valves (dump valves). The tanks are not "combined" until both valves are open at the same time.

As Dan states here, this is shown in the photo in my reply above, #59 direct link to post: Losing my mind... Shower will not drain.

That doesn't mean a previous owner didn't do a radical replumbing of the waste tank system, but immediate prior owner Tim never mentioned on the forum and OP would have to remove the utility bay panel to see for certain how the coach waste plumbing is configured.

Re: Losing my mind... Shower will not drain.

Reply #72 – June 17, 2024, 10:33:59 pm

OMG.
this is soooo embarrassing.
We had it backwards. Yes, black handle = grey water. Silver handle = black tank.

How many days...? How much money..?

🤣🤣🤣
To be fair, I learned a whole lot about Fritz. I certainly have more confidence that we can handle pretty much anything that comes our way with Fritz.
I owe you all a debt of gratitude. You were so generous with your time and your knowledge.
I look forward to hanging out around the campfire, if you'll have us.

Re: Losing my mind... Shower will not drain.

Reply #73 – June 18, 2024, 12:27:47 pm

Sometimes it's just the simplest solutions that we overlook...

Re: Losing my mind... Shower will not drain.

Reply #74 – June 18, 2024, 04:56:12 pm

Quote from: thelazyjays – June 17, 2024, 10:33:59 pm

We had it backwards. Yes, black handle = grey water. Silver handle = black tank.

How many days...? How much money..?

Do consider switching to the SeeLevel tank monitor system - this would give you better peace of mind on your tank levels as well.

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