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Topic: Super Capacitor Start Battery booster. (Read 978 times) previous topic - next topic

Super Capacitor Start Battery booster.

I'm a glutton for criticism from the experts, have the Vaseline and many bags 'o popcorn at the ready, so here goes.

I had the pleasure to meet Matt (Matt_frbrd) here in Q in Dec and again in Jan.  He's a rocket scientist, Roger Engdahl type...seriously.  He does not have a chassis battery in his coach and only runs a single 500 farad ultra capacitor for starting his U280.  Watching it instantaneously cold start is eye opening.

I need new chassis batteries as mine are at least 6 years old.  Been starting with boost switch for the past several years and worry about overtasking the LiFePo house batteries...also want to continue to shed weight on my coach.  So, I looked into new heated high amp LiFePo start batteries, but thankfully because of Matt, decided to research into whether the super cap would smoke my ISM450 ECM, or start it quicker (ISM-450 must see oil pressure rise before injectors fire).  Here's what I found out.

Positive reviews across the board.  Maxwell makes super caps for audio applications.  XSPower makes super cap/AGM combo systems for Cummins, Duramax and Powerstroke diesel pickups in 500farad and 1000farad sizes.  Maxwell cap is half the price of XSPower, but Maxwell made in (you know where, but not USA), and XSPower 100% made in New Jersey.  Maxwell does not mention power train applications specifically, but XSPower IS that application.  XSPower supplies weatherproof, automotive battery case designs in many configurations.  I chose the XSPower model that was on the jungle website, not ideal, but it fits fine.  Only bitch with the one I picked is that it only has 8mm socket head bolts as attach points.

Before installing, you MUST pre-charge the capacitor and XSPower provides a resistor (light bulb with 10" leads) to do that.  Once done, it was just removing a battery and replacing it with the cap and wiring it up.  NOTE, the Foretravel cable lugs have a castellated surface on both sides.  This will NOT provide a good surface to mount to the brass super cap top.  So I filed off the castellated side that mounts to the cap, greased it up and put it in parallel.  Done.

After a start cycle (1.5 seconds or so) the capacitor recharges in an hour or 2 off the house battery via my Trik-L-Start, or the alternator with engine running.

The life span of the cap is a million cycles and has a 1 year warranty from XSPower.

So, $1200 for replacement AGM's, $3000 for LiFePo's, or $500 for a cap.  Duh.

Here's a quick video of the 3AGM cold start and 2AGM/Super Cap cold start.  See a difference?

ISM450 Cold start, 3 AGM, No Boost.  https://youtu.be/uoPvCG4ntHw
ISM450 Cold start, 2 AGM, 500farad Ultra Cap, No Boost.  https://youtu.be/aKHrYJ_7Mgk

Fire away with questions.
2001 4010 U320 build #5865 "Bluto-d-Bus" since 09/18
2006 Honda Element ESP Toad
Full timing since 2016 in Western MT
Copilot: Sitka
1975 GMC 260 Avion: sold

Re: Super Capacitor Start Battery booster.

Reply #1 –
Just a couple of points,your still relying on the house batteries to get you going from scratch,how long does it crank for?,what
if you need a couple of cranks like changing fuel filters or it's cold out.Could you be sending too much power to the starter.
Your at "Q",go check the big tent for battery deals,check out the Lithium Pro booth.
96 U270 BUILD 4810
85 380SL
Drummonds TN.

Re: Super Capacitor Start Battery booster.

Reply #2 –
Quote from: John44 –
Just a couple of points,your still relying on the house batteries to get you going from scratch,how long does it crank for?,what
if you need a couple of cranks like changing fuel filters or it's cold out.Could you be sending too much power to the starter.
Your at "Q",go check the big tent for battery deals,check out the Lithium Pro booth.
The trucks that use it don't have house batteries. It only needs pre charging at installation after that it would charge with the alternator. Where Woody lives has cold issues and no temp issues with the capacitor. I will reserve any negatives and copying of the install for a year when I return to the Q.'
1999 40 ft. U-320 wtfe build 5563 Chuck & Lynda's "Rollin' Inn"  2030 watts solar
prev. mh's 71 GMC 5 yrs. 73 Pace Setter 1 yr. 78 Vogue 5 yrs 81 FTX 40ft all electric 18 yrs. 1996 Monaco Signature 3 yrs.
2014 Grand Cherokee Overland
Dream as if you will live forever. Live as if you will die today.  James Dean

Re: Super Capacitor Start Battery booster.

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Woody & Sitka –
I had the pleasure to meet Matt (Matt_frbrd) here in Q...  He does not have a chassis battery in his coach and only runs a single 500 farad ultra capacitor for starting his U280. 

Here's a quick video of the 3AGM cold start and 2AGM/Super Cap cold start.  See a difference?
Interesting!

So to be clear, Matt uses only a single capacitor (no battery) to start his engine, while you are using two AGM batteries plus a capacitor to start your engine.

Your implementation seems less risky, because you still have two separate battery banks for 12V system redundancy.
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"Nature abhors a vacuum"

Re: Super Capacitor Start Battery booster.

Reply #4 –
The way I read it is that he used the capacitor once and then the batterys once to show the difference,once set up he will only have the house batteries,but my question is how much amps and voltage is going to the starter to get it to spin faster and if
the house batteries fail you are dead in the water and no battery no generator start.
96 U270 BUILD 4810
85 380SL
Drummonds TN.

Re: Super Capacitor Start Battery booster.

Reply #5 –
He only removed one of the chassis batteries and replaced it with a capacitor. He used the batteries first to show the three batteries starting then the capacitor with two of the chassis batteries and the capacitor. With technology changing so fast having a dead in the water coach is almost a non event with the high power lithium jumpstart portables. Starting a generator or engine with mine makes having to get a jump start from road service unnecessary.
1999 40 ft. U-320 wtfe build 5563 Chuck & Lynda's "Rollin' Inn"  2030 watts solar
prev. mh's 71 GMC 5 yrs. 73 Pace Setter 1 yr. 78 Vogue 5 yrs 81 FTX 40ft all electric 18 yrs. 1996 Monaco Signature 3 yrs.
2014 Grand Cherokee Overland
Dream as if you will live forever. Live as if you will die today.  James Dean

Re: Super Capacitor Start Battery booster.

Reply #6 –
Quote from: Woody & Sitka –
I'm a glutton for criticism from the experts, have the Vaseline and many bags 'o popcorn at the ready, so here goes.

I had the pleasure to meet Matt (Matt_frbrd) here in Q in Dec and again in Jan.  He's a rocket scientist, Roger Engdahl type...seriously.  He does not have a chassis battery in his coach and only runs a single 500 farad ultra capacitor for starting his U280.  Watching it instantaneously cold start is eye opening.

I need new chassis batteries as mine are at least 6 years old.  Been starting with boost switch for the past several years and worry about overtasking the LiFePo house batteries...also want to continue to shed weight on my coach.  So, I looked into new heated high amp LiFePo start batteries, but thankfully because of Matt, decided to research into whether the super cap would smoke my ISM450 ECM, or start it quicker (ISM-450 must see oil pressure rise before injectors fire).  Here's what I found out.

Positive reviews across the board.  Maxwell makes super caps for audio applications.  XSPower makes super cap/AGM combo systems for Cummins, Duramax and Powerstroke diesel pickups in 500farad and 1000farad sizes.  Maxwell cap is half the price of XSPower, but Maxwell made in (you know where, but not USA), and XSPower 100% made in New Jersey.  Maxwell does not mention power train applications specifically, but XSPower IS that application.  XSPower supplies weatherproof, automotive battery case designs in many configurations.  I chose the XSPower model that was on the jungle website, not ideal, but it fits fine.  Only bitch with the one I picked is that it only has 8mm socket head bolts as attach points.

Before installing, you MUST pre-charge the capacitor and XSPower provides a resistor (light bulb with 10" leads) to do that.  Once done, it was just removing a battery and replacing it with the cap and wiring it up.  NOTE, the Foretravel cable lugs have a castellated surface on both sides.  This will NOT provide a good surface to mount to the brass super cap top.  So I filed off the castellated side that mounts to the cap, greased it up and put it in parallel.  Done.

After a start cycle (1.5 seconds or so) the capacitor recharges in an hour or 2 off the house battery via my Trik-L-Start, or the alternator with engine running.

The life span of the cap is a million cycles and has a 1 year warranty from XSPower.

So, $1200 for replacement AGM's, $3000 for LiFePo's, or $500 for a cap.  Duh.

Here's a quick video of the 3AGM cold start and 2AGM/Super Cap cold start.  See a difference?

ISM450 Cold start, 3 AGM, No Boost.  https://youtu.be/uoPvCG4ntHw
ISM450 Cold start, 2 AGM, 500farad Ultra Cap, No Boost.  https://youtu.be/aKHrYJ_7Mgk

Fire away with questions.
Do you have the link to the Cap you installed?

Re: Super Capacitor Start Battery booster.

Reply #7 –
If your diesel car/truck only has one chassis battery, why does your coach need two banks to start???  Plenty of CCA will do the job nicely. Using the boost switch can easily mask shortcomings with the batteries, cables, connections.

If your coach starts hard, check out what the problem is. Air in fuel system, poor electrical connections, etc.

The best way to be prepared in cold weather is to install an external block heater using propane, electricity or diesel. Bringing the engine up to temp is the best for the engine and even the starter.

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Super Capacitor Start Battery booster.

Reply #8 –
Do capacitors work with diesel engines that have a "Wait To Start" light?  Seems like engines that use glow plugs or intake manifold heater would drain the capacitor before the engine actually tries to crank.
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"Nature abhors a vacuum"

Re: Super Capacitor Start Battery booster.

Reply #9 –
This looks like a great future technology to help with engine starting. My concern would be once it is discharged what will the inrush be using the boost circuit or even giving a jump from another vehicle? 
Dennis Haynes
Bohemia NY
2008 Nimbus 342 SE Carlyle
Build #6475
Motorcade #19148

Re: Super Capacitor Start Battery booster.

Reply #10 –
Read the info and do a search on how it is used. Once installed no problem with recharging it.


SB500-34 – XS Power
1999 40 ft. U-320 wtfe build 5563 Chuck & Lynda's "Rollin' Inn"  2030 watts solar
prev. mh's 71 GMC 5 yrs. 73 Pace Setter 1 yr. 78 Vogue 5 yrs 81 FTX 40ft all electric 18 yrs. 1996 Monaco Signature 3 yrs.
2014 Grand Cherokee Overland
Dream as if you will live forever. Live as if you will die today.  James Dean

Re: Super Capacitor Start Battery booster.

Reply #11 –
Quote from: craneman –
Read the info and do a search on how it is used. Once installed no problem with recharging it.


SB500-34 – XS Power
DESCRIPTION

12V BCI Group 34, Super Capacitor Bank, Max Power 4,000W, 500 Farad

So at 12 volts it will produce 333 amps? It may also be helping by preventing as much voltage drop. Regardless will be interested in one year evaluation.
Bruce It sure would be nice to have a log of starts, OAT and your opinion of start effectiveness on each start. They should have given yours to you for free just to lure us into buying them.

Re: Super Capacitor Start Battery booster.

Reply #12 –
Seems a lot odd sellers claim 10,000 amps but actually reads can be used in 10,000 amp systems. Manufacturer doesn't mention the 10,000 amp? All they say is 4,000 watt. Which at 12 volts is 333 amps. Quite interesting

Re: Super Capacitor Start Battery booster.

Reply #13 –
Starter motors, like all electric motors are rated in WATTS.  The voltage of this cap is 12-14.5, it just provides all the amperage that the starter demands and no more, and more importantly maintains voltage...which is why audio guys love em. 

You can't make a starter spin any faster than it's designed wattage by having more amperage available at a constant voltage.  My 3xAGM pack was rated at 2850 cold cranking amps and I doubt I was putting out half that, and the voltage was definitely dropping significantly during start...that's bad.  The main advantage I see to the cap is it keeps voltage relatively constant.

The ISM is electronic injection and considerable slower to fire than mechanical injection diesels as the ISM needs to see oil pressure rise and other inputs before injectors fire, but mine has always fired off predictably...just sluggish to spin up on battery alone.  If the engine ever fails to start with the cap, there is always the boost switch backup.

Also, my generator starts off the house batteries, not chassis batteries.

Since I'm the guinea pig for the ISM450 application, I chose to keep 2 AGM batteries as a buffer but I don't think they're needed.  The engine should start exactly the same with just the cap....Matt has no batteries in his chassis set up.  I will keep the current setup till summer and may remove the remaining batteries to shed weight (130# weight savings).  XSPower makes ultra caps up to 1500 Farad...Matt recommended the 500 to start with; I can always parallel a second 500 if the single 500 won't spin up the ISM when frigid cold.  We'll see.

Here's a short video of Matt's 8.3 cold start.  No battery, just a 500 Farad Maxwell Ultra Capacitor.  Looks like more than 330 amps to me.  https://youtube.com/shorts/3RURE_vcgyg


Quote from: John44 –
The way I read it is that he used the capacitor once and then the batterys once to show the difference,once set up he will only have the house batteries,but my question is how much amps and voltage is going to the starter to get it to spin faster and if
the house batteries fail you are dead in the water and no battery no generator start.
2001 4010 U320 build #5865 "Bluto-d-Bus" since 09/18
2006 Honda Element ESP Toad
Full timing since 2016 in Western MT
Copilot: Sitka
1975 GMC 260 Avion: sold

Re: Super Capacitor Start Battery booster.

Reply #14 –
In the owners manual it states "max amps 10,000"

Quote from: dsd –
Seems a lot odd sellers claim 10,000 amps but actually reads can be used in 10,000 amp systems. Manufacturer doesn't mention the 10,000 amp? All they say is 4,000 watt. Which at 12 volts is 333 amps. Quite interesting
2001 4010 U320 build #5865 "Bluto-d-Bus" since 09/18
2006 Honda Element ESP Toad
Full timing since 2016 in Western MT
Copilot: Sitka
1975 GMC 260 Avion: sold

Re: Super Capacitor Start Battery booster.

Reply #15 –
This may be a hidden gem,if it works long term hope the battery makers don't give it the Edsel treatment.
96 U270 BUILD 4810
85 380SL
Drummonds TN.

Re: Super Capacitor Start Battery booster.

Reply #16 –
Other benefits that made me pick the cap over lifepo are: there is no hazmat (lead or lithium) involved to be recycled overseas, over a million cycle lifespan, a quarter of the weight of batteries, extreme temperature tolerant (-40F to 149F Operating range) and NOT MADE IN CHYNA!!!  Win, win, win.....  What am I missing?  I'll keep you all posted on my experiences, but I'm extremely optimistic.
2001 4010 U320 build #5865 "Bluto-d-Bus" since 09/18
2006 Honda Element ESP Toad
Full timing since 2016 in Western MT
Copilot: Sitka
1975 GMC 260 Avion: sold
 

Re: Super Capacitor Start Battery booster.

Reply #17 –
A capacitor has almost negligible internal resistance, which means it can provide very high current for a short time. Just what a starter needs.

But...

They are advertising with "maximum" specs. The actual energy capacity for the 1000 farad capacitor is 36.4 watt hours. Which would be approximately 3 amp hours. The 500 farad capacitor is 1/2 of that. Compare this with a typical 8D starter battery with 200 amp hours X 12 is 2400 watt hours.

I'm not sure I am convinced to completely replace the chassis battery with one of these. Anyone doing this please post results.
Peter and Tammy Fleming
1991 U300 GV 40 - Sold, owned for 4 years
Downsized to Roadtrek Popular 210 class B