House batteries dead.... need advice

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House batteries dead.... need advice

September 05, 2010, 07:16:52 pm

We have had our coach in storage for about a month. It is not plugged into 110volts. I checked a voltage of the batteries two weeks ago and the house batteries were 13 volts and the engine batteries 12.7 volts. Today the engine was 12.4 volts and the house batteries were dead (7.5 volts). I had the 12 volt master switch off the entire time. So some thing happened in the last two weeks. Short somewhere? The house batteries look fine... no leaks that I can see.

When I got home I hit the level button (stupid!) and then heard the HWH air pump running slowly.... most be off the house batteries. I turned it off at the HWH panel (emergency stop), but the pump continued to run. I removed the fuse to stop it.

So what should I do now?

1. Plug it into 110 and turn the charger on?

2. Any ideas where the short might be? The master was definately off, but I know some items are still operable such as the electric door locks.

Any other advice would be most welcome.

P.S. I do have a Trik-L-Start on the coach, but I would think that would not be a factor since the coach was not plugged in.

Re: House batteries dead.... need advice

Reply #1 – September 05, 2010, 07:23:33 pm

George,

What engine /transmission do you have? Did you have the "boost" switch on? The computers on a cummins engine and allison transmission will drain the chassis batteries. If you have the "boost" on it will drain the coach batteries as well, or if you have a trickle start without the "boost" on.

Plug it in, and keep it plugged in if you can. I leave my boost on when I am plugged in, with no ill effects. When not plugged in (like this summer) I set the generator to "auto" and have a trickle start.

Tim

Re: House batteries dead.... need advice

Reply #2 – September 05, 2010, 07:30:17 pm

No, the boost was off... thankfully or everything would be dead, right? The engine battery measured 12.4 volts and the engine started quickly. Tried the generator, but it just groaned.... must be on the house batteries...right?

Yes, I have Trik-L-Start.... problem? The coach was not plugged in and the charger was off.

George

Re: House batteries dead.... need advice

Reply #3 – September 05, 2010, 07:40:25 pm

Put the coach in the same configuration that you had when it was in storage and lookat the 12V amp draw on your inverter controller. Everything that comes out or into your batteries should register. If your batteries died from use, it will show. If the batteries are bad or the leak is on the battery side of the ammeter coil, it won't show up on the controller, but the batteries willl be dead.
Try seeing what the use is.

Re: House batteries dead.... need advice

Reply #4 – September 05, 2010, 07:47:19 pm

To get you going, with engine going, hit boost. That will provide power to the house batteries to allow you to start the generator.

The generator will power the inverter/charger to charge your house batteries.

Brett

Re: House batteries dead.... need advice

Reply #5 – September 05, 2010, 08:04:26 pm

Thanks guys! We actually brought the coach home and it is plugged into a 50amp service. When I turned on the circuit breaker, the power came on as did the Xantrax charger. It is pulling just over 100amps which is normal when the house batteries are low. I will keep an eye on the house batteries and see if they will hold a charge.

I put the fuse back in the HWH air compressor and it is running. Thanks to Steve Cook for showing me where that fuse is! Hopefully it will turn off soon.

Does anyone have a list of what 12 volt circuits that go around the on/off switch? I know the electric door locks work when the switch is off. Refrigerator? Other items?

George

Re: House batteries dead.... need advice

Reply #6 – September 05, 2010, 08:37:17 pm

Look at your 12VDC wiring diagram. It will show you which are switched and unswitched.

Re: House batteries dead.... need advice

Reply #7 – September 05, 2010, 08:38:25 pm

One more question (for now). The HWH air compressor continues to run. Its been running about 30 minutes now which does not seem to be normal. Normally, it comes on for a minute or two. There must be a problem there too.

When I got the coach home and before hooking up the 110volts I hit the level switch on the HWH control panel next to the driver's seat... habit I guess. Anyway, the airpump came on, but was running slowly because the batteries were so low. I pulled the fuse to stop the motor. I also hit the emergency stop button on the HWH panel.

Then once the 110volts was hooked up and the charger was putting out 13.1 volts (or something close to that), I put the fuse back in. It has been running ever since. I also hit the level switch on the HWH panel (after turning on the ignition key). The red light is flickering in its normal way. The coach is on level ground.

Suggestions?

Re: House batteries dead.... need advice

Reply #8 – September 05, 2010, 08:42:54 pm

George,

Sorry to hear about your recent, let's call it, learning experience about your coach batteries. I'm still learning after owning the coach for 7 years. Heck, I don't know if I have the option to shut down the Heart inverter/charger in my coach so it doest charge when the engine is running.

To be safe, whenever I store the coach for anything longer than a week, I disconnect the negative terminals in both the house & starting batteries. It's just a little more work, but, I've never had battery issues, even when the coach sits during the winter for 5 months. This procedure also forces me to check all the battery terminal connections more often.

Re: House batteries dead.... need advice

Reply #9 – September 05, 2010, 08:44:09 pm

The red light should not be flickering. If you are level, it should be constantly on.

Your pump is running because it thinks that you are not level. Try recycling the leveling switch. Or, shut off the power again and reset the computer.
Or, you are not level,

Mike

Re: House batteries dead.... need advice

Reply #10 – September 05, 2010, 08:47:24 pm

No, on mine, it dimly flickers. Always has. I believe this is the way it is on all the 2003 coaches. But I will try the HWH reset switch and see if that helps.

Re: House batteries dead.... need advice

Reply #11 – September 05, 2010, 09:01:58 pm

I pulled the fuse for the HWH airpump. The motor is hot to the touch. It has been running about 45 minutes. Not normal. I did notice that it was blowing air out of the solenoid controlled valve at the bottom of the first water trap on the compressor. That is the one prior to the trap with silica gel. Suggestions?

I did try turning off the HWH system (emergency stop) and releveled the coach. That seems to work OK. I also pressed the HWH reset button a couple of times.

George

Re: House batteries dead.... need advice

Reply #12 – September 05, 2010, 09:19:48 pm

Quote

Yes, I have Trik-L-Start.... problem? The coach was not plugged in and the charger was off.

Properly installed, your Trik L Start keeps the starting battery from being discharged due
to any electrical loads on the house batteries. Based on your situation, it appears to have worked correctly and kept the chassis battery charged even though the house batteries were severely discharged.

I store my coach outside without power with the negative leads disconnected from each set of batteries. Both sets of batteries stay fully charged for months without the parasitic drains that are still present even with the master switch off. Of course I started this practice after an experience similar to yours.

Re: House batteries dead.... need advice

Reply #13 – September 05, 2010, 09:21:09 pm

Quote

I pulled the fuse for the HWH airpump. The motor is hot to the touch. It has been running about 45 minutes. Un-normal. I did notice that it was blowing air out of the solenoid controlled valve at the bottom of the first water trap on the compressor. That is the one prior to the trap
with silica gel. Suggestions?

I did try turning off the HWH system (emergency stop) and releveled the coach. That seems to work OK. I also pressed the HWH reset button a
couple of times.

George

George Hatfield
2003 U295 3610 (#6228)
2009 Honda CRV
www.geoandpat.com

George,

Others will need to confirm this, the solenoid should have 12 VDC when the compressor is running. Failure to close off the drain will cause the compressor to run forever. Check to see if the wires to it have voltage when the pump is on and run a continuity check of the solenoid - coil possibly not working.

Jim
2002 U320

Re: House batteries dead.... need advice

Reply #14 – September 05, 2010, 10:08:11 pm

Quote

I did notice that it was blowing air out of the solenoid controlled valve at the bottom of the first water trap on the compressor. That is the one prior to the trap with silica gel. Suggestions?

Quote

Others will need to confirm this, the solenoid should have 12 VDC when the compressor is running. Failure to close off the drain will cause the compressor to run forever. Check to see if the wires to it have voltage when the pump is on and run a continuity check of the solenoid - coil possibly not working.

That is correct. But if the leak is coming from the bowl where the solenoid is attached & not at the end of the solenoid , it is the seal inside the bowl. And then it will run forever . Steve mentioned he replaced his 3 times.

Quote

The red light should not be flickering. If you are level, it should be constantly on.

Quote

No, on mine, it dimly flickers. Always has. I believe this is the way it is on all the 2003 coaches.

Mine flickers also.

Re: House batteries dead.... need advice

Reply #15 – September 05, 2010, 10:49:28 pm

On the first bowl, there is a solenoid controlled valve on the bottom. Air is coming out of the valve and it shouldn't be. I really don't think it is a leak in the bowl itself. This is probably related to the failure of the house batteries. Barry....could something in the HWH system be damaged? Something must control this valve under normal circumstances (i.e., it should be closed, not open...right?).

George

Re: House batteries dead.... need advice

Reply #16 – September 05, 2010, 10:59:18 pm

Quote from: George Hatfield – September 05, 2010, 10:49:28 pm

One the first bowl, there is a solenoid controlled valve on the bottom. Air is coming out of the valve and it shouldn't be.

George,

That's the solenoid Steve has had to replace a couple of times

http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=10476.msg49240#msg49240

Michelle

Re: House batteries dead.... need advice

Reply #17 – September 05, 2010, 11:08:13 pm

Steve thanks. I will order one from HWH on Tuesday. Do you think this was a random event or somehow associated with my dead house batteries (which are now up to 12 volts after several hours of charging).

George

Re: House batteries dead.... need advice

Reply #18 – September 05, 2010, 11:13:17 pm

Steve..... If the solenoid has to have 12v to close, what would happen if it only had 7.5 volts? Would the current flow go up and over heat the solenoid? If so, I hope it didn't damage anything else.

George

Re: House batteries dead.... need advice

Reply #19 – September 05, 2010, 11:16:54 pm

Quote

Something must control this valve under normal circumstances (i.e., it should be closed, not open...right?).

There is a pressure switch that controls turning the aux compressor on.
If you have an air gauge on the compressor, you can see if the pressure has reached the cutoff or if there is a leak & should be still running.

Re: House batteries dead.... need advice

Reply #20 – September 05, 2010, 11:36:08 pm

Its closes (or should) when the pump is running and opens when the pumps stops to clear the filter bowl of its capture and to leave the filters in a serviceable (ie un pressurized) state. When it does not seal its a way to burn up your HWH pump at a cost of about $1500 .... If I ever hear my pump run for more than 5 mins (other then when I have my dash air pump switch on) I start to look for a problem.

If the voltage got low I'd be more worried about the pump then the solenoid... as voltage goes down the amps need to go up and that's not a good thing but I'm the mechanical guy, I can use a DVM but prefer a set of box ends

That pump is really quite robust but its not a continuous duty motor. The solenoid tends to fail in a partially closed state, so the pump builds up say 40-50 PSI and is working hard but at that point the leak down from the solenoid is equal to the pump output leaving the motor in a high duty cycle (read hot).

If it was the leveling system calling for pressure via the pump, the system would time out and you would get the excess slope light on the HWH panel (can't remember the exact timeout on leveling, 15min?), if its the slide bladders calling for pressure the pump will run until the pressure switch trips or the pump burns out. There were a couple of posts about how the leveling system could still operate the pump with the fuse out, so I *think* the fuse is just related to the slide seals / aux tank pressure.

You can try giving the solenoid a it few taps with the end of a screw driver to get it to seal so the pump can build up to the shut off pressure. You can also remove it and clean it up with some DI water but in the end you will need to get a new one at some point (~$145). I've replaced it enough time now that I can do it quicker than a pit crew can change a tire ... ok thats not true but 5mins at most

Re: House batteries dead.... need advice

Reply #21 – September 06, 2010, 10:35:19 am

Sorry to hear of your problem, George.

Since that venting solenoid is leaking, couldn't it have been the cause of the low batteries, since the compressor would have run continuously due to the leak?

However, wouldn't the compressor have to run 10 hours or more, given its amp draw, to run down a set of fully charged house batteries? Hard to believe the compressor would survive that.

Regarding the HWH control pad light, mine also flickers faintly when it is in monitoring mode.

Mike Spitz
2003 u-295

Re: House batteries dead.... need advice

Reply #22 – September 06, 2010, 03:42:57 pm

Update.... I was able to fix the HWH solenoid valve on the bottom of the first trap (just before the silica gel trap). I checked and it did have 12 volts to it when the air pump motor was running. So I removed the valve and took it apart as far as I could go. Removed the little coil so water was not a problem. Then ran some "Lime Away" though it a couple of times followed by lots of water each time. After I reassembled the valve I connected it to a 12 volt battery and ran compressed air through the valve. Each time it got 12v it closed. At first there was some leakage, so I cycled it about 20 times and it quit leaking. I put everything together on the coach and started the HWH air compressor (put in the fuse) and it quit running within about 2 minutes. The solenoid opened when the motor shut off, as it should.

I think Michael may have something as to why the batteries were dead. Obviously, the HWH system pays no attention to the main 12v on/off switch. I suspect it, the air pump, came on and the solenoid valve failed to close. So the pump just ran until the batteries were dead. The label on the motor says it draws 28 amps. The last time I looked at the coach was about 2 weeks ago so it had plenty of time to draw down the house batteries. Does that sound reasonable?

Thanks for all your help on this. Another perfect example of the power of the forum!!

Oh, the batteries are coming up nicely. I will see if they hold a charge. They may have been damaged.

George

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