New house batteries

Topic: New house batteries (Read 1330 times) previous topic - next topic

New house batteries

September 25, 2010, 03:02:45 pm

I'm thinking now that my 8Ds are going south. I have 4 year old MKs right now. After replacing the coach batteries and putting a new Trick-L-Start one week later in storage the house batteries were at 12.2 and the coach batteries were 11V. 190W solar kept everything fine for the last few years. Along with the disconnect switch I have switches on both detectors and the propane valve. Its rare for me to show more than an amp discharge at night.
I'm charging both banks fully today, then disconnecting all to let them sit overnight.

I've found Lifelines for $580.00 w/free shipping. Amazingly I've not found either MKs or Trojans much cheaper.
I'll call my local place on Monday. Anyone else replace theirs lately?

Re: New house batteries

Reply #1 – September 25, 2010, 03:15:47 pm

Dave,

If the new batteries cut into your budget you can always go on a quest for the best East Coast hot dog.

Re: New house batteries

Reply #2 – September 25, 2010, 03:29:30 pm

So - the question is, were I to come to Virginia could I get into the
$400.00 ea range for a pair?

Re: New house batteries

Reply #3 – September 25, 2010, 03:45:29 pm

hmmm... Generic? http://ebatteriestogo.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=EBTG&Product_Code=45964

Re: New house batteries

Reply #4 – September 25, 2010, 03:55:23 pm

I guess I don't know as much about batteries as I thought I did. Why is it that everyone uses AGM batteries rather than the old lead acid battery. An Interstate Lead Acid battery is under $150 at Sams.

Re: New house batteries

Reply #5 – September 25, 2010, 03:57:57 pm

not a problem! Since we can't boondock between Starr's oxygen concentrator and her need for AC I've got plenty of time.
I got a great price on Trojans locally a few years back. I'm hoping to repeat.

Re: New house batteries

Reply #6 – September 25, 2010, 04:01:36 pm

Quote from: Kent Speers – September 25, 2010, 03:55:23 pm

I guess I don't know as much about batteries as I thought I did. Why is it that everyone uses AGM batteries rather than the old lead acid battery. An Interstate Lead Acid battery is under $150 at Sams.

Maintenance free is the biggest reason.

Re: New house batteries

Reply #7 – September 25, 2010, 04:15:58 pm

Batteries were about the only thing that had not been replaced in my New 2 Me U300 coach. They are Circa 2003 so I will probably be facing replacement very soon. I am hoping the Prosine 3000 Inveter/Charger will lengthen their life but 7 years is pretty good already.

Any other things I should consider before my Scottish heritage causes me to go for the Flooded Lead Acid type? They have been working great in my U225.

Re: New house batteries

Reply #8 – September 25, 2010, 05:08:49 pm

It is difficult to beat the value of lead acid golf cart batteries, particularly if you do not boon dock all the time. These batteries are smaller than 8D batteries so you need 6 to replace 2 8D's.

Gell batteries (usually 8D) will deep cycle more times than AGM (but cost more money), AGM will cycle more times than lead acid (but cost more money).

Sealed batteries are easier to care for because you never add water and they do not outgas, but Gell's in particular can be damaged if charged too fast. Batteries which are not sealed will create corrosion on terminals and wiring while sealed batteries will not.

I deep cycle every day for the six months each winter when I am in California so I pay the price for sealed.
I have had excellent results with Gells which were still good after 9 years, but charge voltage must be lowered with Gells.

Concord AGM, which I purchased in April, will, according to manufacturer, cycle as many times as Gell, but can be charged the same as lead acid.

In spite of what Concorde said, I lowered the charge voltage of the alternator and the solar controller to be easy on the batteries.

Bottom line: lowest cost per cycle is Golf Cart lead acid, but easiest mantenance is sealed, and lonest life is Gell (I bought AGM battereis because they were easier to find and cost less ($425/ 8D in California).

Test your house batteries by carefully measuring voltage over 15 hours with a 10 amp load. PM me for more details if desired.

Wyatt

Re: New house batteries

Reply #9 – September 25, 2010, 05:37:48 pm

As long as you have the time for the routine maintenance and good ventilation for the gasses, you should be fine.

Re: New house batteries

Reply #10 – September 25, 2010, 07:51:45 pm

On our boat, I had 18 6VDC golf cart batteries. Bought them at Sam's for about $50. each. I made them maintenance free by putting Hydrocaps on them. The caps are not cheap-cheap, but not having to service the batteries over 8 years made it worthwhile. But, you cannot equalize the batteries with the hydrocaps on. (I cooked a few once, before I read the directions

Worked great. You can research them and if they fit your battery racks, go for it. With Hydrocaps, they don't gas (actually they do, but the catalyst in the cap turns it back into water and it goes back into the battery).

http://www.ecovantageenergy.com/catalog/items/item33.htm

Also, the 6VDC batteries don't weigh a ton. A little more than a 12V battery. When you put them in, the batteries need to be in pairs to get up to 12V. But at $50 each, its a bargain.

My disclaimer is that I don't own Sam's!

Re: New house batteries

Reply #11 – September 25, 2010, 08:09:00 pm

OK, Michael come clean.

I have sailed a lot of scows (mostly C's and E's at Culver) but have NEVER seen a battery much less that kind of battery bank on one!

So, what do you sail and where?

We have a Catalina 350 and leave the end of next week from Kemah/Galveston for the Bahamas.

Looking for a place on the west coast of FL to leave the boat so we can be home Thanksgiving to Xmas with family in Texas.

Brett

Re: New house batteries

Reply #12 – September 25, 2010, 11:05:24 pm

Your voltage readings indicate that your house battery bank is probably ok and your starting battery bank was drawn down by something. Trik-L-Start always keeps on discharging the house battery as long as the start battery voltage is lower.
The only time the Trik-L-Start stops discharging the house batteries is when the start battery voltage is higher than the house battery. That is unless your Trik-L-Start is wired backwards.

Re: New house batteries

Reply #13 – September 25, 2010, 11:52:19 pm

Quote from: Barry & Cindy – September 25, 2010, 11:05:24 pm

Trik-L-Start always keeps on discharging the house battery as long as the start battery voltage is lower.
The only time the Trik-L-Start stops discharging the house batteries is when the start battery voltage is higher than the house battery.

Barry,

Are you sure? Reading the Trik-L-Start website (and observing the unit in our coach), it will only function when house batteries are receiving a charge, so it should not keep discharging them if there isn't enough input via solar or shore power.

http://www.lslproducts.com/UTLS_FAQs.html

Per their website above

"I STORE MY MOTOR HOME WITHOUT ANY AC HOOKUPS. CAN TRIK-L-START™ BE USED TO DRAW POWER FROM MY HOUSE BATTERIES TO KEEP MY STARTING BATTERIES CHARGED? No, TRIK-L-START™ only works when there is a house battery charging source (i.e., DC power converter, inverter/charger or solar panels) present. In the absence of this charging source, TRIK-L-START™ is effectively disconnected, and doesn't supply any charge to your starting battery(s)."

Michelle

Re: New house batteries

Reply #14 – September 26, 2010, 10:20:52 am

Quote from: wolfe10 – September 25, 2010, 08:09:00 pm

We have a Catalina 350 and leave the end of next week from Kemah/Galveston for the Bahamas.

Looking for a place on the west coast of FL to leave the boat so we can be home Thanksgiving to Xmas with family in Texas.

Brett,

In case you haven't seen it, there's a little discussion about this in the Around the Fire Ring board

http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=10600.0

Michelle

Re: New house batteries

Reply #15 – September 26, 2010, 12:31:20 pm

Good question Michelle . . .
I read TLS web site just now and agree that it says that house battery must be being charged for the TLS to maintain the start battery bank.

My understanding has always been that Trik-L-Start (TLS) is a pretty simple current-limiting diode device. I do not think that TLS has a circuit that knows voltage settings. TLS would have to know voltage level to know if house was being charged. Nothing on their web site states that a specific voltage is needed to maintain house battery. The absence of electrical specifications and the use of easy to understand words and a low price help make TLS a successful product.

100% full batteries are about 12.6 and above. To charge a battery the voltage has to be much higher than the battery's voltage to "push" amps into a battery. So TLS would have to know that voltage is above 12.6 to know that charging is 'on'.

It is my opinion that the words used on their web site 'hide' the simplicity of the TLS and make one big assumption that is not mentioned; that the house battery will run down faster than the start battery. The following statement from TLS web site could say something about stopping the 0.2 volt differential if house is below a specific voltage, but it does not. "WILL TRIK-L-START™ OVERCHARGE MY BATTERIES? No, TRIK-L-START™ maintains your starting battery(s) at approximately 0.2 volts below your house battery voltage."

I like TLS and other LSLProducts and I recommend them and use some.

The word 'effectively' covers up that TLC is never disconnected, but assumes that when engine is running, start battery will always be same or higher voltage than house. Another example of assumptive words being used in place of specifications or facts.
"WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE ENGINE IS RUNNING? TRIK-L-START™ is effectively disconnected from both sets of batteries whenever the engine is running, and will not affect your alternator's normal operation."

TLS has a link to Winnebago
http://www.winnebagoind.com/resources/service/pdfs/2006-04%20Trik-L-Start.pdf , that has the following paragraph: "The Trik-L-Start device monitors battery voltage in the house batteries and compares it to the chassis battery. When the Trik-L-Start senses the chassis battery voltage is approximately ½ volt lower than the house battery, it allows up to 5 amps current flow to the chassis battery. The circuitry within the Trik-L-Start prevents back feeding of electricity from the chassis to coach battery so if 110V power is interrupted, the chassis battery will not be discharged"

Everything in the above paragraph other than "5 amps" can be handled by a simple diode. Diodes will allow current to flow from house to start as long as start is 1/2 volt lower. My assumption is that there is nothing to stop the current flow as long as the start battery is lower than house battery by at least 1/2 volt. My assumption may be incorrect.

By the way, because I needed something to keep my start battery charged, long before I knew of TLS, I took an unused small isolator and wired the center post to the house battery and one of the side posts to the start battery through a circuit breaker to limit current so it could not burn out my wires connecting things together. Isolators are just a diode device.
Diodes are also inexpensive.

Re: New house batteries

Reply #16 – September 26, 2010, 12:59:29 pm

Dave, call Centex batteries in Bastrup, TX at 512-308-9002. Web sight centexbatteries.com He will work with you. Florida has a Plant and you might be able to pick them up locally. I purchased 3 8D's in August from him and picked them up in Bastrup.

Re: New house batteries

Reply #17 – September 26, 2010, 03:22:57 pm

Well, after 12 hours disconnected the batteries stayed fine (13.5V). So I know I don't have a dead cell. I can get by for quite awhile if they are weak since we really don't boondock.
To isolate any issue with the chassis bank I added a disconnect switch I had laying around to the ground wire.
In the mean time I pulled the alternator to have it rebuilt. I'm tired of it going whacked on me and pushing 15 volts for no reason. Its a Powerline with just + and - cables and a sensing wire.
I did verify that the solar is working fine. It was pushing 2-3 amps @ 14.2V today. It is connected to cables in the large bay forward of the utility bay.

Re: New house batteries

Reply #18 – September 26, 2010, 04:57:36 pm

Dave,
Are your batteries lead acid? If so, have you equalized them lately. If you have been charging them with solar panels, they might have gotten lazy. I've seen this on many boats.

By equalizing them, you can bring them back to life.

And Brett, we lived on a Wauquiez MS45 with 18 6VDC golf cart batteries from Sams at about $48 apiece and they lasted for 8 years. I had 2 12V AGM's that I used for the hook and they charged side by side with the lead acid. The golf cart batteries had hydrocaps and didn't need service,as they were buried in the bilge to keep the weight down. I did have to move the waterline up 6" with all of my toys! I charged with 2 Four Winds wind generators, a tow generator in the water, six 80 watt solar panel on the hard top. With that size battery bank, I didn't need a regulator for any of the chargers. I had a 2K gen set but rarely used it and the 200 amp on the volvo TMD 31A topped us off when we were coming in and out of the passes.

Wind & solar kept us in ice, cold beer & home-made ice cream with our 16 cu. ft. refer/freezer and the RO system kept us in daily showers and water for the Splendide.

Wauquiez is to boats as Foretravel is to RV's. Class boat, built like a brick **!

Re: New house batteries

Reply #19 – September 26, 2010, 05:04:20 pm

Quote from: Mike Baldacchino – September 26, 2010, 04:57:36 pm

And Brett, we lived on a Wauquiez MS45 with 18 6VDC golf cart batteries from Sams at about $48 apiece and they lasted for 8 years. I had 2 12V AGM's that I used for the hooka and they charged side by side with the lead acid. The golf cart barreries had hydrocaps and didn't need service,as thet were burried in the bilge to keep the weight down. I did have to move the waterline up 6" with all of my toys! I charged with 2 Four Winds wind generators, a tow generator in the water, six 80 watt solar panel on the hard top. With that size battery bank, I didn't need a regulator for any of the chargers. I had a 2K gen set but rarely used it and the 200 amp on the volvo TMD 31A topped us off when we were coming in and out of the passes.

Wauquiez is to boats as Foretravel is to RV's. Class boat, built like a brick **!

Beautiful boat. Dianne and I did 25,000+ miles in a Pacific Seacraft Crealock 37-- another quality boat: http://www.pacificseacraft.com/html/ps37.html

End of off topic discussion on how 18 batteries could fit in a 20' MC Scow (per signature)

Brett Wolfe

Re: New house batteries

Reply #20 – September 26, 2010, 10:11:32 pm

They are MK AGMs. I'm getting the feeling that the alternator may be the culprit. I ran the coach for about 10 min or less today. The alternator was pumping out over 15 volts to fully charged batteries - both banks I also think that the alternator output may be set to house bank priority at the isolator - or the isolator itself may have a wiring issue. When I decided to pull it - it was hot. Close to to hot to touch! Case, regulator, everything.
The voltage of the cables coming TO the alternator (charge and sense) was 13.62, which should have been the house bank. I'll do more testing later.
After I pulled the alternator and drove it back to storage I shut everything down including disconnecting the chassis batteries. I was seeing 4.1 amps and 14.01 volts to the batteries, which I would expect late on a sunny afternoon - AND I haven't seen since all the problems started.
I think the alternator had somehow become a 'load to ground'.

Re: New house batteries

Reply #21 – September 27, 2010, 11:47:46 am

Dave, I am confused by the following:

You said "alternator was pumping out over 15 volts to fully charged batteries - both banks"
You also said "voltage of the cables coming TO the alternator (charge and sense) was 13.62"

Where did you measure the 15v (batteries, isolator diodes, or?)
I cannot understand how it is possible for battery voltage to be 15v with alternator voltage of 13.62. I also cannot understand how charge and sense voltages are both 13.62 unless you have incorrect wiring or ground faults.

What spot did you use as the ground for your meter during the above measurements?
How is your alternator grounded, via the case and mounting bolts like most cars?
My 96 U320 alternator has a seperate ground cable which is bolted to the engine.

Before rebuilding your alternator, have it tested at an automobile electric shop. Most will test it for you at no charge because they want to rebuild it for you.

I would look for a bad or intermittent ground at the alternator and at the batteries.

My alternator stopped charging last week and it turned out to be a very rusty sensing wire connection at the regulator (bolted on alternator).

I hope this helps.

Re: New house batteries

Reply #22 – September 27, 2010, 12:13:09 pm

Sorry for the confusion. When the engine was running, I measured 15+ volts on both battery banks. I then did a 'loading' trick I have used before to load the system down by turning on the AC (high) headlights and fog lights. That brought it down to 13.8V - but only on the chassis side.

The 13.62V reading was taken at the alternator cables after removing the alternator.

Re: New house batteries

Reply #23 – September 27, 2010, 01:08:53 pm

We probably should change the subject for this discussion!

"15+ volts on both battery banks" is IMHO too high and will damage even lead acid batteries over time.
Questions:
How accurate is your meter? If you have access to another meter compare the readings because DVM can go bad, or be inaccurate when new. Any new DMV's I buy gets compared to my Fluke and other (proven accurate) DMV's that I have and it is not uncommon for me to return inaccurate meters.

Load trick using head/fog lights will only effect start batteries - good idea.
Load trick AC will not effect battery voltage, AC runs from 120v A/C genset or shore.

The 13.62v taken at charge wire with alternator removed indicates a shorted isolator diode, bad wiring or something left on. The heavy alternator charge wire should show zero with alternator removed. I would measure voltage at alternator connector of isolator block and see if there are any other wires connected to the alternator connector. Remove alternator charge wire from isolator block and measure voltages of alternator charge wire and alternator connector.

Hope this helps

Re: New house batteries

Reply #24 – September 27, 2010, 05:53:40 pm

Dropped the alternator off today at Central Florida Remanufactory - They do the majority of alternator and starter rebuilds for dealers and repair shops in central Florida. A pleasure to deal with, the guy laughed and said indeed it could become a load to the batteries when in storage and overcharge in use depending on how the diodes fail. Assuming no windings shorted it will be ready tomorrow - about 200 plus tax. He will probably bump it to 200A.
He'll show me where to adjust it - we agreed it wouldn't do any good to set it until its on the coach.

I've used Flukes for decades - the older ones are the best there is! I haven't been that thrilled with some of the newer cheap ones. I use a good basic Radio Shack DVM I've have for years. I still love the old Simpson 260...

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