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50 Amp Cable on Reel

Last evening when Xtreme shop put me outside for the night and connected up the 50 amp cable, later I noticed the volt readings on the monitor, showed 187 & 53 volts, Classic sign of open neutral, I  new I had an issue, since my connector was inside the garage and it was locked, my only option to disconnect was to open bed, remove cover from the transfer switch, and pull a coil wire off so the contactor would drop out (Open), now I was able to run the generator as needed with good voltage.
This morning went to MOT purchased a new 50 amp plug, wired it up, reconnected the coil wire on contactor and BINGO, all works as planned.
You just never know what is next ;D

Re: 50 Amp Cable on Reel

Reply #1 –
See .... I would have just had to shut everything off and sit in the dark ... or watch the coach explode ... or get on the Forum and ask one of you genius guys what to do.  I surely am glad that this resource exists!!
Carol & Jeff Savournin
Usta have a '93 U225 36', Usta have a '95 U320 40', Usta have a '02 U320 40'
Usta have a 2006 Born Free, Usta have a 2011 Phoenix Cruiser
Usta have a 2012 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited 4dr
"Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life."  Steve Jobs

Re: 50 Amp Cable on Reel

Reply #2 –
Makes perfect sense now, that you explained what you did.  Just another piece of info for the file.  Love this forum.
Dave Cobb
Buckhorn Lake Resort The Club, #6202, Kerrville TX
check the map.  I do rent it out when I am traveling!
2001, U320, 36' #5887, in Kerrville, FT Club #17006, (7/23 to present)
2024 Jeep Grand Cherokee L, Summit, white
EX: 98 U295, 36' #5219, (mid door), (4/13-10/23)
EX: 93 U225, 36' (4/11 to 4/13)

Re: 50 Amp Cable on Reel

Reply #3 –
Those of us in the Poortravel Club can just unplug the power cable at the "coach" end of the cable in such a situation. We have no fancy reels for our power cables and hoses.  ;) I would expect our surge protector would shut down power in case of an open neutral on the supply side, but it probably would not protect against a fault in our connector.

Did they provide entertainment in the evening at Xtreme? When we were there and parked in the "secure, luxury" area behind the gate, a work truck burned on the roadside in front of the apartment. It made lots of smoke and drew a crowd. We saw live demonstrations from fire departments from at least two cities.

J D Stevens
1997 U295 CAI 36' Build #5085
2002 Subaru Outback
Motorcade 16869
Bellville, TX

Re: 50 Amp Cable on Reel

Reply #4 –
Only excitement around here, it rained last night about 3/4". this morning temps in the mid 50's, so everyone is wildly excited.  Tonight expect temps in the 40's.  Sp get out your heavy coats.  ;D

Re: 50 Amp Cable on Reel

Reply #5 –
Dave M,
Great intuition on noticing the extreme high voltage and determining an "open neutral".

Something that puzzles me is that there was any voltage readings with an open neutral. Are your volt meters connected to "hot" and ground?
Also, how could the relay be set in the transfer switch without a power supply neutral?

Did you examine the old power cord to determine where the open was?
You may be able to cut off the broken wire and reuse the remainder as a 50 amp extension cord by replacing a bad end (if it is cost effective).
Wyatt
96 U320 40 WTFE, build 4943
84 Toyota Supra towd
2015 Jeep Wrangler towd
Victoria, BC, Canada

Re: 50 Amp Cable on Reel

Reply #6 –
I see you picked right up on that one, indeed, the problem seemed to be a bad ground plug/prong on my end of the cord, so I purchased a new Yellow HD type with the pull handle loop, wired it in and all good.
My question and I have not followed up and checked out exactly how the coach is wired as to neutral and ground connections, but with a bad ground prong, should not have effected the 120 per side, the neutral should have carried it just fine. but the ground was open, and that requires more digging into just how this thing is wired.  Never had a reason to check before.
The open neutral voltage reading was simple, being in the generator business, you see this more frequently than you would like.  Have seen cases of things like a micro wave oven going off like a pop corn popper when the components start blowing up etc...
Why I was in a rush to get the coil to drop the contactor out, as it was my only method  of killing power to the coach.  Glad I had a pair of needle nose with insulated grips, you bet, reaching down through the #8 wire to the #20 on the coil wire with 1/4" wide slip on connector, was simple.
Feel that if I were not able to disconnect the cable, by morning I would have had a real mess, as it turned out, I ran the generator for about 8 hours and everything so far seems just fine. Amen indeed.

Re: 50 Amp Cable on Reel

Reply #7 –
Wyatt, I am beginning to think the problem is with the neutral and ground being mixed up at the Inverter, why the goofy readings, as you mentioned, this just does not make a whole lot of sense how it worked and did not seem to cause any damage to any components, If the coil in the transfer switch had the 178 VAC it would have cooked the coil, if it had the 65 VAC, the coil would not have picked up.
One day soon I will get real snoopy in this question.
Dave M

Re: 50 Amp Cable on Reel

Reply #8 –
Dave, it sounds like your transfer switch is shore power priority, which when both generator & shore are hot, the transfer switch will act like generator is not running. We also have shore priority on our coach, which has been a problem when we are plugged into a 15-amp outlet and want to run microwave. We used to go outside and turn off shore or pull shore plug which is no fun if it is raining or dark outside.

To help us out, I put a switch on the room side of the under-bed electric panel which disconnects transfer switch shore relay coil power. Now when we run both shore & gen and want gen to power coach, we just turn off this new switch, which fools the transfer switch into thinking shore is unplugged.

Re: 50 Amp Cable on Reel

Reply #9 –
Barry, You are so right, and I have already installed a  SPST toggle switch in the side of the transfer switch metal cabinet just for that time so I can also disconnect from shore power. I am not going to have another one of them moments.
Thanks

Re: 50 Amp Cable on Reel

Reply #10 –
Am I the only one that doesn't understand all this, or is it really as complicated as it sounds?
1996 U270
Build #4846

Re: 50 Amp Cable on Reel

Reply #11 –
Dave M
This ground/neutral confusion would make me crazy.

In my Foretravel, I was surprised to find the neutral and ground "NOT" connected at the coach main a/c panel. The laws in Canada state that the only place the ground and neutral are connected is at the main a/c house panel and that is how my previous motorhome was wired (Canadian made). However, no neutral/ground connect at the a/c panel in a motorhome makes sense to me now, because the neutral/ground connect should be made at the shore power panel (or genset, or inverter). That is how my Foretravel was and still is. when I checked continuity between the neutral and ground at a kitchen receptacle, I found open neutral/ground With "NO" a/c source (shore, genset, or inverter), but, connected neutral/ground with any a/c power source (shore, genset, or inverter).

I believe that this "no connect" between neutral/ground at the motorhome a/c panel is required so that a "ground fault receptacle" will function correctly. I know a Foretravel owner (1992 U300) who replaced the "ground fault receptacle" in his bathroom with a regular receptacle. I do not recommend this, and now wonder if the neutral/ground is connected in his motorhome a/c main panel.

I recently helped a Vancouver Island friend who has a 2001 U320 where the "ground fault receptacle in his bathroom was tripping. There were two problems: the hot/neutral wires were swapped in a kitchen receptacle (a different friend's help) and he had driven a screw in the wrong place in his basement storage bay (you cannot be too careful with installs).

In my U320 I have replaced the auto a/c selector switches with manual switches, replaced the inverter/converter combo with an inverter and a converter, and removed the inverter subpanel by rewiring the main a/c panel. Send a PM if you wish more details.

   
Wyatt
96 U320 40 WTFE, build 4943
84 Toyota Supra towd
2015 Jeep Wrangler towd
Victoria, BC, Canada

Re: 50 Amp Cable on Reel

Reply #12 –
Walt,

I think I would like you to drop by and do a service call and double check my system for sure now!  Let me know when you are coming thru Ft. Worth, dinner is on me for sure.

Thanks in advance.  And I will pay for all the supplies my coach might need as well. :)
Dave Cobb
Buckhorn Lake Resort The Club, #6202, Kerrville TX
check the map.  I do rent it out when I am traveling!
2001, U320, 36' #5887, in Kerrville, FT Club #17006, (7/23 to present)
2024 Jeep Grand Cherokee L, Summit, white
EX: 98 U295, 36' #5219, (mid door), (4/13-10/23)
EX: 93 U225, 36' (4/11 to 4/13)

Re: 50 Amp Cable on Reel

Reply #13 –
Those of you who have installed a switch to fool the auto a/c switch to connect genset power when still connected to shore power, confirm that the neutral and both hot shore relays disconnect. Connecting shore neutral (or hot) with genset neutral (or hot) is not safe and can cause unhappy unpredictable results.
Wyatt
96 U320 40 WTFE, build 4943
84 Toyota Supra towd
2015 Jeep Wrangler towd
Victoria, BC, Canada

Re: 50 Amp Cable on Reel

Reply #15 –
Quote from: J. D. Stevens –
A set of documents and diagrams that I found helpful can be found at:

Thanks, Dave - I collected them and put them in an album in the Files Library here (oh, and gave you karma  :) ):

The selected media item is not currently available.

Michelle
Learn every day, but especially from the experiences of others. It's cheaper!  - John C. Bogle

2000 U320 36' non-slide / WildEBeest Rescue
2003 U320

Re: 50 Amp Cable on Reel

Reply #16 –
Thank you J.D. Stevens and Michelle,

I read the first AC safety article, very well written with pictures making AC wiring concepts easier to understand.

Wyatt
96 U320 40 WTFE, build 4943
84 Toyota Supra towd
2015 Jeep Wrangler towd
Victoria, BC, Canada

Re: 50 Amp Cable on Reel

Reply #17 –
NEC Article 551.54 (C) Google it all rv's are supposed to be wired by this article. Grounds and Neutrals are to be separated at your distribution panel board. The main reason for this is if you have a fault it go's back to the source ground which would be at the main power panel that feeds the power pedestal or outlet. If they are not separated at the panel and you have a fault it will go to the grd/neutral bar and at that point the fault could carry on into your neutrals going to the outlets and devices in the motor home which could be damaged. You want the fault to go to the source get it out of the rv which means separate the grounds and neutrals, you bond the ground bar not the neutral bar. Don't want to confuse anyone just remember the grounds and neutrals are separated at the distribution panel/breaker box in your motor home. A ground fault outlet will work without a ground just a hot and neutral, has nothing to do with separating the grounds and neutrals at the panel board.
The selected media item is not currently available.
Bobby & Norma
1992 GV U280
C8.3 Cummins
 

Re: 50 Amp Cable on Reel

Reply #18 –
Been at MOT as they were installing the Air Force 1 Brake control system to the F150 p/u, (Thank you Carol for the info), just got back to the coach and know I need to open the bed  and start a good eye ball with the Fluke 87 in the transfer switch box etc. Still think it will turn up in the wiring of the inverter where it is showing the ac voltage on the display, Or who knows what / where this will lead.  Will start by disconnecting the ground wire in the box, see what we will see.
Ironically, I frequently have the GFI trip for no apparent reason.  Of course I love a good mystrey, as long as it is a book.