Electrical Confusion

Topic: Electrical Confusion (Read 1157 times) previous topic - next topic

Electrical Confusion

February 10, 2012, 09:06:21 pm

Hi Alll

Could use a little help. When we are on battery or genny we do not have power to the 110 outlets. With the genny running the power meter says we have 110 and the microwave functions properly - but none of the electrical outlets have power. We dont have any gfci outlets so That is not the issue. Also with no genny but just the power inverter - same thing - power to microwave but not to outlets. Very confused.

Christi

Re: Electrical Confusion

Reply #1 – February 10, 2012, 09:12:50 pm

Quote from: Christis Dream – February 10, 2012, 09:06:21 pm

Hi Alll

Could use a little help. When we are on battery or genny we do not have power to the 110 outlets. With the genny running the power meter says we have 110 and the microwave functions properly - but none of the electrical outlets have power. We dont have any gfci outlets so That is not the issue. Also with no genny but just the power inverter - same thing - power to microwave but not to outlets. Very confused.

Christi

Sounds like a 110vac circuit breaker to the outlets is tripped.

Re: Electrical Confusion

Reply #2 – February 10, 2012, 09:28:08 pm

I wish - we tried that - no power.

Unless there's some other breaker we haven't found yet

Re: Electrical Confusion

Reply #3 – February 10, 2012, 09:50:41 pm

It sure sounds like the classic GFI tripped scenario. You're sure you don't have a GFI outlet in the bathroom? Our GFI trips all of the outlets down stream.

see ya
ken

Re: Electrical Confusion

Reply #4 – February 10, 2012, 10:08:32 pm

Unless it has been removed and replaced with a conventional outlet, all FT's, even in'93, were required to have a GFCI outlet. In those early 90's they were in the bathroom. Not easily noticeable, look closely at the outlet in there.

Re: Electrical Confusion

Reply #5 – February 10, 2012, 10:19:23 pm

Sounds very much like: 1) main breaker on inverter subpanel (circuit breaker box #2) is tripped; 2) transfer switch (switching relay #2) for the subpanel has failed; 3) GFCI is tripped or failed.

On our 1995 U295, there are two 120VAC breaker panels. One is the "main circuit breaker box" and the other is the "circuit breaker box #2." The symptoms you describe are consistent with a failure of the "switching relay #2" or the main breaker open in "circuit breaker box #2." The open breaker is likely to be an easy fix. Just reset it. The failure of the switching relay is a bigger deal and might require outside assistance to repair.

A tripped GFCI might cause the same symptoms. Resetting the GFCI is pretty easy after you find it. Ours is in the bathroom on the outlet nearest the sink.

Re: Electrical Confusion

Reply #6 – February 10, 2012, 10:54:15 pm

Did they use two transfer switches in 1993? My 1995 only has one. If it was a transfer switch problem I don't think the microwave would work. Also if the main breaker in circuit breaker box number two was tripped that again would also take out the microwave. My microwave is powered by it's own CB in box number two so it could work with the GFI tripped on the other circuits.
I would look hard for that GFI and trip and reset it along with all the breakers in circuit breaker box number two. If that doesn't get it then it's time to get out the VOM and look for the point of power loss. I think I would start at circuit breaker box number two.

Re: Electrical Confusion

Reply #7 – February 10, 2012, 11:11:34 pm

Check for tripped circuit breaker on inverter in bay?

Re: Electrical Confusion

Reply #8 – February 10, 2012, 11:17:22 pm

Look VERY VERY closely at the outlet in the bathroom by the sink - its a GFI and the reset/test buttons are dead in the middle.

Re: Electrical Confusion

Reply #9 – February 11, 2012, 08:39:39 am

Of course FT would make a GFCI outlet that blends in!

I was looking for the typical red & white buttons found on many GFCI outlets. DOH!!!! Thanks to all. Not sure if that corrected everything - we now get power to the outlets when genny is on but not from the inverter - we will try the other suggestions and see what we can find. Again - ya'll really rock!

Re: Electrical Confusion

Reply #10 – February 11, 2012, 02:27:07 pm

Hmmmm. Most transfer switches are stacked one above the other. One for inverter, and one for gen/shore power.

Re: Electrical Confusion

Reply #11 – February 11, 2012, 05:43:27 pm

RE: Hmmmm. Most transfer switches are stacked . . .

Prior to about 1998, some Foretravel's had just one transfer switch which transfered shore & generator.
The inverter's transfer switch built-in to most inverters transfered the inverter panel.

I think one reason they went to two transfer switchs is because some inverters did not have the built-in transfer switch.
But they mainly used two transfer switches because the amps from the generator and shore were greater than inverter's built-in switch could handle.

Re: Electrical Confusion

Reply #12 – February 11, 2012, 05:50:48 pm

Quote from: John Duld – February 10, 2012, 10:54:15 pm

Did they use two transfer switches in 1993? My 1995 only has one. ...

Quote from: Barry & Cindy – February 11, 2012, 05:43:27 pm

Prior to about 1998, some Foretravel's had just one transfer switch which transfered shore & generator.
The inverter's transfer switch built-in to most inverters transfered the inverter panel.

Barry, Thanks for the additional information about some inverters having internal transfer switches.

Our 1997 coach has two transfer switches. They are both ATS-100. Both are in the compartment behind the breaker panels in the pedestal for the bed. Ours are not stacked directly on top of each, so you can see both. I have attached a picture.

Re: Electrical Confusion

Reply #13 – February 11, 2012, 05:53:41 pm

mine are stacked, and both were ATS 100-s - one went out this year and had to replace - the bottom one of course, in mine it was from batteries to inverter and out to panel (i think...)

Re: Electrical Confusion

Reply #14 – February 11, 2012, 06:16:36 pm

Quote from: Christis Dream – February 11, 2012, 08:39:39 am

Not sure if that corrected everything - we now get power to the outlets when genny is on but not from the inverter - we will try the other suggestions and see what we can find. Again - ya'll really rock!

What outlets are not working when on inverter? I believe when you are on inverter not all of them work.

Re: Electrical Confusion

Reply #15 – February 11, 2012, 11:08:04 pm

Ray,
Here are wiring diagrams for my '96

From the Relay Switching drawing you can see that power to Circuit Breaker Box 2 comes from either the Shore Power/Generator feed or the Inverter feed.

The attached 110V Electrical Drawing shows the potential Inverter feed circuits (from Breaker Box #2).

hth

elliott bray

Re: Electrical Confusion

Reply #16 – February 12, 2012, 12:59:46 pm

A very aptly named thread, the more I look into it the more confused I become.

Maybe somebody could do a quick lesson here using the wiring diagram. My questions:

It only shows 50A 220 V, why doesn't it show optional 30A 110V?
Switch relay #1 obviously chooses between shore and gen, but which has precedence?
What exactly happens in the Main breaker box? What does it do differently if it's 30 amp vs 50 amp?
It shows only the 30 amp going to the inverter, so what happens when you're hooked to 50 amp?
Also it would appear that if you're hooked to 50 amp, since it goes directly to switching relay #2, that circuit breaker box#2 is powered directly from shore
power and not via the inverter, but that doesn't agree with the statement on the 2nd picture that that box is fed from the inverter.

I know I'm pushing the envelope of there's no dumb questions

My drawing of this is A-2700.13, and is basically identical to the one Elliot has posted BUT, in actuality I do not have the Switching relay #2. At least not under the bed where it says it is, and not in the inverter storage bay. I also only have one line (circuit #7, size 10/2g) coming out of the main circuit breaker box which I assume goes to the inverter. I do not have the circuit #5, even though my drawing says I do.

Since this drawing is only the relay system, it doesn't show that the Main circuit breaker box also contains all the non inverter breakers/circuits for things like the air conditioners, etc. It took a while for that to dawn on me.

Re: Electrical Confusion

Reply #17 – February 12, 2012, 01:31:01 pm

Quote from: Gayland Baasch – February 12, 2012, 12:59:46 pm

A very aptly named thread, the more I look into it the more confused I become.

Maybe somebody could do a quick lesson here using the wiring diagram. My questions:

It only shows 50A 220 V, why doesn't it show optional 30A 110V?
Switch relay #1 obviously chooses between shore and gen, but which has precedence?
What exactly happens in the Main breaker box? What does it do differently if it's 30 amp vs 50 amp?
It shows only the 30 amp going to the inverter, so what happens when you're hooked to 50 amp?
Also it would appear that if you're hooked to 50 amp, since it goes directly to switching relay #2, that circuit breaker box#2 is powered directly from shore
power and not via the inverter, but that doesn't agree with the statement on the 2nd picture that that box is fed from the inverter.

I know I'm pushing the envelope of there's no dumb questions

A couple of links that should answer some of the questions

What has AC Priority on Foretravel RV

AC Electricity

Re: Electrical Confusion

Reply #18 – February 12, 2012, 06:12:48 pm

I knew at the time I should have included the other Breaker drawing so here is it and I'll resend the others.

Quote from: Gayland Baasch – February 12, 2012, 12:59:46 pm

Maybe somebody could do a quick lesson here using the wiring diagram. My questions:

It only shows 50A 220 V, why doesn't it show optional 30A 110V?
Switch relay #1 obviously chooses between shore and gen, but which has precedence?
What exactly happens in the Main breaker box? What does it do differently if it's 30 amp vs 50 amp?

A couple of answers (or at least comments)...
First, The electrons in 30 amp circuits are not colored differently than 50 amp circuits!!!
All we mean is that the hose that the electrons (the physical wires) and the control devices (breakers, motors, and such which make up the electrical circuit) can withstand the pressure difference (Amps) that the different NUMBER of electrons make.

Look at the Relay diagram. It talks about 50A 220V. An electrical AHA moment for me was when I realized that the same piece of 4-wire copper cable could be (at the same time) either one 220V current conductor or two 110V conductors. Because the WIRES (and breakers) are big enough to handle a 50A electron flow, they are easily big enough to handle a 30A flow. The SHORELINE feed (and the 10kw Gen) feed is made up of three 6 gauge wires and one Ground wire, large enough to handle a 50A flow. (The wires are Line1, Line2, Common,Ground).

Lets look back it the coach.

Look at the diagram I DIDN'T send previously (110 Electrical Diagram, page 1 of 2)
Notice that the headings are CIRCuit NO, AMPS LEG 1, AMPS LEG 2, ...
One of the two 110V circuits goes to LEG1, and the other ...
The diagram to the right shows a pair of 50A breakers for the box connecting to 16 sub breakers with sub breaker 5 feeding Switching Relay #2.

All that is fine... but what about the 30A power I sometimes have to settle for?
The campground power pedestal is what is supplying the power. It is wired for a single 110v circuit (I am going to ignore the amperage capability for a moment).

How are you going to connect it to the coach. I use one of two different adapters, either of which converts one 110V to two 110V wires. (Look back at Breaker Box #1, it expects two 110V circuits.) Internally both wire the single 110V feed from the pedestal to both Line1 and Line2.

So after all this ...
From a 50A power pedastal you recieve two 50A 110V services (50a*110V*2=11,000watts)
From a 30A power Pedastal you recieve one 30A 110V service (30a*110V*1=3,300watts)

The electrons are all the same color...
The coach wiring is the same, it can handle 11,000 watts
When you try to draw more watts (its the same as trying to draw more amps) you blow the PEDASTAL breaker.

Quote

It shows only the 30 amp going to the inverter, so what happens when you're hooked to 50 amp?
Also it would appear that if you're hooked to 50 amp, since it goes directly to switching relay #2, that circuit breaker box#2 is powered directly from shore
power and not via the inverter, but that doesn't agree with the statement on the 2nd picture that that box is fed from the inverter.

The Inverter doesn't draw more than 30 amps.

The feed to circuit breaker box#2 depends on where Switching Relay i#2 is getting its power, either from the inverter or from the main breaker.

hth

Re: Electrical Confusion

Reply #19 – February 13, 2012, 07:59:10 am

Sorry, here are the diagrams

Re: Electrical Confusion

Reply #20 – February 15, 2012, 01:24:26 pm

Thank you all - we now have power to outlets through inverter as well. This is even better than a phone-a-friend cause ya'll have visual aids! The drawings prompted me to check mine and even though the inverter switch says miicrowave and receptacle the drawings have the outlets powered with the switch the way for the ice maker etc. Thanks again.

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