Actual Weights VS Placard Weights

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Actual Weights VS Placard Weights

September 26, 2012, 08:11:33 pm

This should be a fun one, and maybe useful to some. Hopefully this isn't like the weight on most peoples driver's license (under ideal conditions when we were in high school!). I would like to think that the placard weights were in the ball park when our coaches rolled out onto the showroom lot, but I wonder... Maybe my ranges are too wide or too narrow. Feel free to comment either way. I am pasting an earlier post I made along with a picture of our coaches weight placard (1999 36' U270). It would be useful to include your coaches model, length, and year and any significant changes from the original, be it options from the factory or subsequent mods. I realize that the weight descriptions changed over the years, so pictures of weight placards might be instructive. i.e.; I have seen GVWR described as including two 150lb passengers. I am hoping to be educated regarding Foretravel's policies. Those who have weighed SOBs as well, feel free to add that as well so that we might see how Foretravel stacks up in this regard (we already know that FT blows away the competition in most other areas

Don

Quote

I haven't weighed our 99' 36ft U270 yet, but it is high on my list of things to do when I get us back on the road (soon... that is my story and I am sticking to it!). However, looking at the sticker by the driver's chair, it says that our coach has an unladen weight of 25,050lbs. According to the sticker, this includes all fluids necessary for operation (full fuel=148 gal, oil, coolant, etc., but NOT including fresh water, LP gas, cargo, people, etc.). This leaves supposedly 5950 lbs. of NCC (net carrying capacity) from our GVWR of 31,000. Once we subtract full water ((112 Gal=933lbs), full LP (about 200lbs), that would leave about 4,800 for the two of us (less than 300lbs.). From that, subtract the Washer Dryer, a couble hundred pounds of structural steel that I have added to the basement, that would still leave over 4,000lbs. for goodies. Mind you, likely we would like base how much fresh water we travel with depending on where we are going...

Anyway, I would like to hear from anybody with a similar coach (99' 36ft U270) what your actual weighed values are. If the placard on ours is accurate, that should leave us plenty of carrying capacity for full timing, particularly since we will initially be towing my basic 2WD 92' Toyota pickup (2800lbs.) with a shell for extra capacity, if needed.

Re: Actual Weights VS Placard Weights

Reply #1 – September 26, 2012, 10:42:33 pm

Don,

Which value do you consider to be "placard weight?" Our measured weight for a loaded coach is about 900# less than GVWR and 3,500# more than UVW. Where would that fit in your poll?

Re: Actual Weights VS Placard Weights

Reply #2 – September 26, 2012, 10:44:38 pm

J. D.,
I was thinking of weights where anything beyond what the placard weight shows as UVW is a known quantity. For instance, you get weighed with full diesel (which is included in the placard weight in our coach), and maybe full freshwater, and propane but without misc cargo. So in our case, say we weighed in at 26,500lbs without our "stuff". Subtracting the known weight of 110 gallons of FW and of a full LP tank, I would know that our weight without FW or LP would would show us weighing 317lbs over what the placard indicates for our coach. Knowing that I added a Splendide XC2100 WD which is 148lbs., I would know that our coach came out very close to its UVW shown on the placard, since I have added that much structural steel at least... maybe my idea is half baked, but I just wanted to know if the placards are typically fairly accurate, or are they based on the most stripped down example... i.e.: no awning package, no joey bed, etc.
I am certainly open to suggestions for modifying the poll to be more useful...
Don

Quote from: J. D. Stevens – September 26, 2012, 10:15:43 pm

Don,

I see this is a poll. Are you asking for "measured loaded weight" vs. "GVWR?" All of our measured weights are for the coach as loaded at the beginning of a trip.

Re: Actual Weights VS Placard Weights

Reply #3 – September 26, 2012, 10:51:58 pm

J.D.,
Your purpose for weighing is probably the most common and I guess, unless you happen to know the weight of all your "stuff", this poll doesn't really apply to your situation as stated... which may certainly be a flaw in my conception, but I guess I mainly want to hone in on how accurate the UVW (Unloaded Vehicle Weight) is on our coaches so I can figure out how much stuff I can actually carry...
Don

Quote from: J. D. Stevens – September 26, 2012, 10:42:33 pm

Don,

Which value do you consider to be "placard weight?" Our measured weight for a loaded coach is about 900# less than GVWR and 3,500# more than UVW. Where would that fit in your poll?

Re: Actual Weights VS Placard Weights

Reply #4 – September 26, 2012, 11:31:14 pm

Don,

Thanks for the explanation. I can't participate with my current information. We never measured without "stuff" in the coach. We measured to verify that we are within specified weight limits, and also to determine appropriate tire pressures.

Best wishes for completion of your renovation project so that you can embark on traveling adventures.

Re: Actual Weights VS Placard Weights

Reply #5 – September 27, 2012, 12:19:31 am

J. D.,
Thanks for the good wishes! Your approach to weighing of course makes perfect sense... maybe that is the way and the reason most people have done it. I want to do a baseline on our coach, though it may even be a little late for that

since I have added the washer, put bamboo flooring in (which is probably close to a wash in terms of the weight), taken out the CRT TV's, the large leather recliner (going to build a desk in its place), but it will be our starting point and will tell me how much "stuff" we can carry. Not that I necessarily want to max it out! But I am new to this kind of life and just trying to get a handle on it...
Don

Quote from: J. D. Stevens – September 26, 2012, 11:31:14 pm

Don,

Thanks for the explanation. I can't participate with my current information. We never measured without "stuff" in the coach. We measured to verify that we are within specified weight limits, and also to determine appropriate tire pressures.

Best wishes for completion of your renovation project so that you can embark on traveling adventures.

Re: Actual Weights VS Placard Weights

Reply #6 – September 27, 2012, 07:50:19 am

Two suggestion for those participating in this discussion:

If you have individual wheel weights for your coach, please post them AND what tanks were full/empty and estimate of personal gear weight.

AND, If you found one side of an axle heavy, which was it (i.e. you may have moved weights to even out your individual wheel position weights so the weights posted may not reflect the actual side to side unloaded imbalance).

Thanks.

Brett

Re: Actual Weights VS Placard Weights

Reply #7 – September 27, 2012, 08:02:59 am

Sounds like this is a thread that I'm going to need to pay close attention to. We're getting closer to being in the market for a Foretravel, and it will be good to know whether the coaches we're thinking about actually have the capacity to carry what we will be carrying.

I'm familiar with doing weight and balance calculations for airplanes, and I'm wondering if there is any similar calculation for a Foretravel. I'm thinking that if all of the weight were toward the rear, even while keeping the axle weight within limits, that handling would be noticeably different that if the same weight were more evenly distributed, so that there was more on the front axle. True? Or are these coaches heavy enough that it really won't be noticeable?

Re: Actual Weights VS Placard Weights

Reply #8 – September 27, 2012, 09:43:19 am

I don't even have a UVW listing on the placard to compare with. But my title shows a light weight (what you call UVW) of 17,400 lbs. Where DMV came up with that, I don't know. But they have all kinds of reference books with info like that for all manufactured motor vehicles.

Update: I weight in at 7,700 steer axle and my gross allowable there is 8,800.
My rear is at 13,340 and my gross allowable is 15,000.
That is ready to go with a full fuel tank, a 3/4 tank of LP, and a 1/2 tank of fresh water. Other tanks empty. That puts me at 21,180, so I have some room to spare considering my gross vehicle max is 22,500. But it does not leave much for a toad considering my CGWR is 24,000.

Re: Actual Weights VS Placard Weights

Reply #9 – September 27, 2012, 10:21:42 am

I weighed our coach, a 1993 U280 when I purchased it with full fuel and propane and water tanks. I found the weights really weird, tell me what you think. GVWR 28000# FRONT 10000# REAR 19000#. There is no GCVWR on the placard although I understand it is around 30000#, which doesn't leave much room for Stuff and toad. Also seems to me the front and rear should total 28000#. In any case my weights at a CAT scale were: GWR 26020#, FRONT 9060# REAR 16960#. These weight were taken without any "STUFF". Have yet to weigh it with all our stuff. On my list of thing to do, but suspect my GCVWR will be well over 30000# as we are towing a Jeep Liberty which weighs in the area of 4000#.

Roland

Re: Actual Weights VS Placard Weights

Reply #10 – September 27, 2012, 12:00:26 pm

Thanks for posting that Roland... Interesting, if you had full FW (100 gallons around 900lbs.), then your UVW (as measured on the placard in our coach), would be just over 25K lbs. Does your placard or documentation give UVW (and a definition of UVW)?
Don

Quote from: Roland Begin – September 27, 2012, 10:21:42 am

I weighed our coach, a 1993 U280 when I purchased it with full fuel and propane and water tanks. I found the weights really weird, tell me what you think. GVWR 28000# FRONT 10000# REAR 19000#. There is no GCVWR on the placard although I understand it is around 30000#, which doesn't leave much room for Stuff and toad. Also seems to me the front and rear should total 28000#. In any case my weights at a CAT scale were: GWR 26020#, FRONT 9060# REAR 16960#. These weight were taken without any "STUFF". Have yet to weigh it with all our stuff. On my list of thing to do, but suspect my GCVWR will be well over 30000# as we are towing a Jeep Liberty which weighs in the area of 4000#.

Roland

Re: Actual Weights VS Placard Weights

Reply #11 – September 27, 2012, 12:14:51 pm

Quote from: acousticart – September 27, 2012, 12:00:26 pm

Thanks for posting that Roland... Interesting, if you had full FW (100 gallons around 900lbs.), then your UVW (as measured on the placard in our coach), would be just over 25K lbs. Does your placard or documentation give UVW (and a definition of UVW)?
Don

My placard shows GAWR and GVWR and that is it for weight ratings. I have looked everywhere in this coach for any other weight ratings to no avail. Either there never were any or PO removed them.

Roland

Re: Actual Weights VS Placard Weights

Reply #12 – September 27, 2012, 02:55:45 pm

Quote from: Roland Begin – September 27, 2012, 12:14:51 pm

My placard shows GAWR and GVWR and that is it for weight ratings. I have looked everywhere in this coach for any other weight ratings to no avail. Either there never were any or PO removed them.

Roland

Those other ratings were not required to be posted by the RVIA until the later 1990s.

Re: Actual Weights VS Placard Weights

Reply #13 – September 27, 2012, 07:29:21 pm

Roland,

Is your 280 a 40' or 36'? My metal placard lists the same GVWR (28000) and Front and Rear numbers. That just indicates that the rear axle is capable of handling an additional 1000#. In my 36', we weigh it before every summer-long trip, when it is full of diesel, propane, fresh water, empty holding tanks, complete set of tools, full bays, fridge, clothing etc. Filled that way, it weighs in at 27,750, including the two of us. Our Honda Accord weighs 3400#. We haven't had any issues related to weight in 9 1/2 years, 60,000 miles.

Re: Actual Weights VS Placard Weights

Reply #14 – September 27, 2012, 07:40:06 pm

Quote from: Don Hay – September 27, 2012, 07:29:21 pm

Roland,

Is your 280 a 40' or 36'? My metal placard lists the same GVWR (28000) and Front and Rear numbers.

Our U280 is a forty footer. I plan on weighing it fully laden with the Jeep in tow before we get to NM. Will post my results. I just would like to know what weight we are at as we amble down the byways. Whatever we weigh though, this rig with the 300 Cummins just purrs goin down the road. Ya gotta love it.

Roland

Re: Actual Weights VS Placard Weights

Reply #15 – September 27, 2012, 08:02:41 pm

Quote;
This should be a fun one, and maybe useful to some....................... I would like to think that the placard weights were in the ball park when our coaches rolled out onto the showroom lot, but I wonder........................It would be useful to include your coaches model, length, and year and any significant changes from the original, be it options from the factory or subsequent mods...........................
Don

Don,
I'm not sure that you will be able to get a statistically significant sample from your poll in that very few owners weigh their coaches when empty.................they are much more inclined to want to know when they are approaching the GVWR or GCWR of the coach. One of the reasons being that FT has no incentive to overstate the empty weight and every reason to make it accurate (not understate). As I understand it, if you do not have a CUSTOM built coach and you compare your coach to the standard model year XXXX brochure description, you can tell two things:
1. What accessories have been added to your coach
2. What the actual model of that coach weighed in 34', 36', 40', 42' and (in later years, 38' and 45') versions.
I would assume that absent significant design changes that add or subtract weight to a standard model within any given model year, FT didn't weigh every coach and make different cards for every coach. Thus, all of the YY foot coaches in model year XXXX probably have the same placards.

All that having been said, here are copies of my weight information placard ('98 U270 3602 WTFE) and also a copy of one of my recent RVSEF weighing records. We try to keep the coach light because we tow upwards of 9000 lbs in trailer plus SUV plus Goldwing.
At this weighing, I had 3600# GVWR margin and at 9000#'s towed, was roughly 500# over in GCWR. Fairly typical for us.
I had full diesel, full fresh water, full propane, empty black and grey tanks, and our normal complement of tools, supplies and "STUFF". I don't have any reasonable "quess-timate" of what the weight of that "normal complement" is as it wasn't relevant. Therefore, I can't answer your poll. The GVWR and GCWR are what was relevant (for me), then and now.

Since the UNLOADED VEHICLE WEIGHT is an actual weighed coach of my model year, identical (or nearly identical) to my coach, I wouldn't be "tilting at that windmill".

Instead, I would find it to be much more informative to know why the GVWR and GCWR values are what they are and what the limiting design component or calculation is that establishes the GVWR and GCWR value(s). For instance, is it cooling capacity, braking capacity, transmission rating, tire rating (NO), frame design, a calculation or what other "whatever" that sets my GVWR at 31000 and GCWR at 36000? And how much conservatism is built into that number?
I'm sure that being 500#'s over in GCWR, in pulling our trailer, isn't pushing any safety limit (having upgraded our 5000# frame rating to meet the 10K towing approval), but it would be much more informative to know what the PLACARD numbers are based upon, so that I could be sure to favor that/those factor(s) conservatively. I'm guessing there is LOADS of margin and room there, as opposed to the UVW value that you are pursuing, but we probably won't be able to get at any of it, unless some of our members have great insights into FT engineering (that they can share).
Just thinking out loud, here. Inquiring minds wonder/wander.
Neal

Re: Actual Weights VS Placard Weights

Reply #16 – September 27, 2012, 08:45:59 pm

Small tid bit concerning loosing weight, I had Xtreme/Rance do the rear engine cover mod, Rance feels a little over 100 lb is removed doing the mod and removing all the metal structure on and around the origional setup.
I feel this mod will become the normal for most of us, easy to open/close, not near the origional effort required by far, I love it. Only reason to remove the bottom section is to service the air filter.

Cheers
Dave M

Re: Actual Weights VS Placard Weights

Reply #17 – September 27, 2012, 09:17:13 pm

Quote from: Neal Pillsbury – September 27, 2012, 08:02:41 pm

All that having been said, here are copies of my weight information placard ('98 U270 3602 WTFE) and also a copy of one of my recent RVSEF weighing records. We try to keep the coach light because we tow upwards of 9000 lbs in trailer plus SUV plus Goldwing.
At this weighing, I had 3600# GVWR margin

Neal,

I see the RVSEF folks gave you margin numbers based on your tire inflation pressure (100 psi all around, if I read that correctly). We also had RVSEF weighing done Coach individual wheel weight experience, and they did not give us our margins but rather the recommended tire inflations.

Some numbers to ponder on our '03 tag axle coach

Shipping weight per original vehicle title 32024 lbs

UVW per weight plate 33350

CAT scale weights on purchase (used, some fluids) 34050

RVSEF weighing, all (5) passengers in their usual
spots, loaded for a typical casual trip, toad
attached 36075

GVWR 42000

The mods we made that may show up in weights (occurred between CAT scale and RVSEF weights) are memory foam mattress, tile backsplashes in bath and kitchen, new D/P seats, MCD blinds, upgraded front TV from CRT to LCD flat panel, genset changed from 10kW to 12kW, satellite upgraded from Motosat minidome to Winegard Trav'ler.

-M

Re: Actual Weights VS Placard Weights

Reply #18 – September 28, 2012, 01:02:57 am

Michelle,
Correct.
RVSEF gave me margins based upon the tires and the target tire pressure information that I gave them. Usually RVSEF has let me specify that I want to know how much carrying capacity margin I have at the pressure(s) I'm using, as well as the axle margins. It's just ratios and proportions based on Ratings versus (Actual) Load Measurements. If I have RVSEF do it, it's a check on my math and it's easier for me to interpret at a glance if I am being overly (or under) conservative with my "over inflation".
After this weighing I went from 100 psig all around to 100 psig target on the steer axle and 95 psig target on the drive axle. I've continued to keep those targets over the past several years.
One time in Tampa, RVSEF, working on behalf of an insurance company sponsor, insisted upon providing just the recommended tire pressures. Of course one has to work backward through the Tire Mfg. information to figure out the tire by tire carrying capacity margins. The insurance company's reasoning was that too many people can't figure out what pressures to set their tires at (or were interpreting the information wrong/setting the tire pressures incorrectly), even though RVSEF includes a printout of the Mfg's inflation table specific to the tires on the coach at the time of the weighing.
The last several weighings haven't changed much at all for us, so we must be either "in the zone" or totally boring. Not sure which.

Your scale information all looks great and reasonable, with lots of good margin. A State's "Title" weight is generally a dry weight and your initial weight had unspecified fluids, so the weights seem reasonable (in my mind).

I like the comments that we ALWAYS get when we go through the RVSEF "weigh-in's". In the staging area and then the recording staff always joke:
Here comes another Foretravel!..............They're always under capacity and just like to show us all up with their wide margins of safety! Then they say, "We try not to snicker and make horrific faces when the XXX's or the YYY's or the ZZZ's come through the line. They are consistently unsafe before even a single drop of fluid goes on board. And then, if pressed, they have some real scorching tales of low-end to multimillion dollar SOB's that should never have been sold, if owners only knew what to look for (or cared).

Makes one proud!

You are what you make for choices in life!

Best regards,
Neal

Re: Actual Weights VS Placard Weights

Reply #19 – September 28, 2012, 10:25:26 am

What are your tire pressures.

Quote from: Michelle – September 27, 2012, 09:17:13 pm

Neal,

I see the RVSEF folks gave you margin numbers based on your tire inflation pressure (100 psi all around, if I read that correctly). We also had RVSEF weighing done Coach individual wheel weight experience, and they did not give us our margins but rather the recommended tire inflations.

Some numbers to ponder on our '03 tag axle coach

Shipping weight per original vehicle title 32024 lbs

UVW per weight plate 33350

CAT scale weights on purchase (used, some fluids) 34050

RVSEF weighing, all (5) passengers in their usual
spots, loaded for a typical casual trip, toad
attached 36075

GVWR 42000

The mods we made that may show up in weights (occurred between CAT scale and RVSEF weights) are memory foam mattress, tile backsplashes in bath and kitchen, new D/P seats, MCD blinds, upgraded front TV from CRT to LCD flat panel, genset changed from 10kW to 12kW, satellite upgraded from Motosat minidome to Winegard Trav'ler.

-M

Re: Actual Weights VS Placard Weights

Reply #20 – September 28, 2012, 12:03:13 pm

Quote from: Rick & Colleen – September 28, 2012, 10:25:26 am

What are your tire pressures.

Based on the heaviest end for each axle, given the tires are Michelin XZA3+ 275/80R22.5 LRH

Axle heavy end weight inflation single end capacity at inflation

Steer 6200 lbs 105psi 6435 lbs
Drive 8300 lbs 85 psi 10300 lbs
Tag 3700 lbs 75 psi 4915 lbs

The RVSEF folks actually recommended 75 psi on the drive axle, but I couldn't bring myself to lower it that far. We were running 95 psi in the drive prior to weighing.

This makes for some interesting "food for thought" as you look at the GAWR on the coach. Ours is 13880 front, 21000 drive, 9000 tag. Something I've noticed: theoretically, if you were loaded to the GAWR, Michelin recommended tire inflations for those weights (let's divide by 2 to get simple axle end weights) on the XZA3+ LRH would be:

Steer 13880 total, 6940 lbs per end, just over 115 psi
Drive 21000 total, 10500 lbs per end, 90 psi
Tag 9000 total, 4500 lbs per end, somewhere under 75 psi (chart doesn't go that low)

Analysis paralysis

Michelle

ETA... Rick and Colleen pointed out via PM that the FT weight plate lists 115/94/70 for their and our particular coaches. Those inflations nearly mirror what inflating to GAWR weights would be with the original equipment XZA2 LRH tires....

Re: Actual Weights VS Placard Weights

Reply #21 – September 29, 2012, 12:42:17 pm

Placard
Steer 13880 total
Drive 21000 total
Tag 9000 total

I don't remember what my tanks were at when it was weighed.

Re: Actual Weights VS Placard Weights

Reply #22 – September 29, 2012, 01:17:31 pm

Neal,
Thanks for your detailed reply... I think you are right that there won't be a statistically significant sample here. I guess I was looking for confirmation that the UVW listed on our placard was an accurate starting point. I have heard that manufacturers routinely under report the UVW to make their CC look better to the consumer. Not that I think Foretravel would stoop to that! Looking at your weight placard. the thing that strikes me is that your UVW is 520lbs lighter than our 99' same size U270! I wonder wherein the difference and whether or not the 10,000lb towing capacity of the 99's has anything to do with that. It is hard to imagine that there would be 500lbs of additional steel involved, or that the electronic ISC's weigh that much more than the previous generation non electronic 8.3's. I believe that our transmissions are the same, I don't have any idea about the possible weights of cooling or CAC components that might be different. Interesting... and of course, since our GVWR is the same 31K, you get the difference in extra carrying capacity!
Don

Quote from: Neal Pillsbury – September 27, 2012, 08:02:41 pm

All that having been said, here are copies of my weight information placard ('98 U270 3602 WTFE) and also a copy of one of my recent RVSEF weighing records. We try to keep the coach light because we tow upwards of 9000 lbs in trailer plus SUV plus Goldwing.
At this weighing, I had 3600# GVWR margin and at 9000#'s towed, was roughly 500# over in GCWR. Fairly typical for us.
I had full diesel, full fresh water, full propane, empty black and grey tanks, and our normal complement of tools, supplies and "STUFF". I don't have any reasonable "quess-timate" of what the weight of that "normal complement" is as it wasn't relevant. Therefore, I can't answer your poll. The GVWR and GCWR are what was relevant (for me), then and now.

Since the UNLOADED VEHICLE WEIGHT is an actual weighed coach of my model year, identical (or nearly identical) to my coach, I wouldn't be "tilting at that windmill".

Instead, I would find it to be much more informative to know why the GVWR and GCWR values are what they are and what the limiting design component or calculation is that establishes the GVWR and GCWR value(s). For instance, is it cooling capacity, braking capacity, transmission rating, tire rating (NO), frame design, a calculation or what other "whatever" that sets my GVWR at 31000 and GCWR at 36000? And how much conservatism is built into that number?
I'm sure that being 500#'s over in GCWR, in pulling our trailer, isn't pushing any safety limit (having upgraded our 5000# frame rating to meet the 10K towing approval), but it would be much more informative to know what the PLACARD numbers are based upon, so that I could be sure to favor that/those factor(s) conservatively. I'm guessing there is LOADS of margin and room there, as opposed to the UVW value that you are pursuing, but we probably won't be able to get at any of it, unless some of our members have great insights into FT engineering (that they can share).
Just thinking out loud, here. Inquiring minds wonder/wander.
Neal

Re: Actual Weights VS Placard Weights

Reply #23 – September 29, 2012, 01:52:38 pm

Quote from: acousticart – September 29, 2012, 01:17:31 pm

.................................the thing that strikes me is that your UVW is 520lbs lighter than our 99' same size U270! I wonder wherein the difference and whether or not the 10,000lb towing capacity of the 99's has anything to do with that. It is hard to imagine that there would be 500lbs of additional steel involved, or that the electronic ISC's weigh that much more than the previous generation non electronic 8.3's. I believe that our transmissions are the same, I don't have any idea about the possible weights of cooling or CAC components that might be different. Interesting... and of course, since our GVWR is the same 31K, you get the difference in extra carrying capacity!
Don

Hi Don,
A few gallons of fluids here, a couple pounds of furniture there, some additional width in the entry door, a small bit of frame redesign, different tires, different engine, different radiator, next model year components and voila! The actual weighed coach, same model, is 520 lbs "Fluffier".
It's hard to say where it is Don, but I don't think the UVW figures are too far off of reality.
At the same time, I also bet that the GVWR/GCWR has thousands of pounds of real margin. Not that I want to use any of it, because conservative design is one of the most valuable constants in Foretravel philosophy (and much of what attracted me to Foretravel in the first place). Too many competitors run too close to or even into deficits in safety margins, right off of the assembly line.
I'd just like to know what the limiting components or design considerations/calculations are. I know it won't happen, because it's "PROPRIETARY", but I'd love to know, so that I can favor those components during actual OTR use!

Happy that your renovation/rebuild chapter is drawing to a close and you're thinking about "goin' down the road STUFF"
Neal

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