Engine idled then died; Cummins M11

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Engine idled then died; Cummins M11

February 03, 2013, 09:46:13 am

Day after returning from an 1,100mile trip; started the engine and it died after a short idle. The tank is at ~1/4 full, the pre-filter in the glass tube shows slight debris but no fuel in the tube. Any ideas where to start looking? Not sure of the sequence but would guess to start with the secondary fuel filter and work back to the primary filter to see if any fuel is present.

Re: Engine idled then died; Cummins M11

Reply #1 – February 03, 2013, 10:26:51 am

Fiddler,

Start by doing a visual down the fuel tank fill filler to make sure the gauge is not faulty. Do you live up a hill so the coach had to climb a bit before turning off? Check filters for fuel. Assuming you mean the plastic bottom on the filter that has the debris in it. If the debris is black, you may want to cut open a filter and check for algae. Loosen the secondary filter several turns and use the hand pump until fuel drips out of the filter. If no fuel comes out the filters are clogged or you have a bad fuel hose letting air in the system. In my experience, usually the hand pump is difficult if the filters are clogged. Pumps easier if a bad supply line or no fuel in the tank. Algae usually hits the primary (first filter the fuel sees after leaving the tank) first and clogs it.

Could also be the fuel shut off solenoid but check above first.

Pierce

Re: Engine idled then died; Cummins M11

Reply #2 – February 03, 2013, 10:44:04 am

Fiddler,

Your M-11 doesn't have a lift pump. Certainly check the fuel tank. Add fuel if there is any question of low fuel. Use the prime button to confirm you have fuel to the injection pump. If you don't understand the prime procedure, please ask. If you can't prime, then change and inspect filters, then look at the supply fuel hose.

Re: Engine idled then died; Cummins M11

Reply #3 – February 03, 2013, 11:10:39 am

Fiddler,

Sorry about the lack of the hand pump on your chassis. The reason most diesels die the next morning after a long trip is fuel viscosity. Warm diesel is thinner and will pass through a partially clogged filter. In the morning, the fuel is cooler and thicker and the clogged filter reduces the flow to the point the engine does not get enough to stay running.

After checking for fuel in the tank, my guess would be #1 clogged filter(s), #2 air in system, #3 fuel shutoff solenoid.

Pierce

Re: Engine idled then died; Cummins M11

Reply #4 – February 03, 2013, 11:35:36 am

One item worth checking is the Racor purge pump with the classic "O" Ring issue with the plastic bowl, when it goes bad, it leaves air in and will not pull fuel. That sounds like a possible as you mentioned the plastc bowl is empty ? If that is the issue, a new bowl with new O rings is a cheap fix, sure worth replacing, I do mine every other year as a routine.
I find these pumps very good and reliable with this one area of concern, many have been replaced with a so called upgrade, that is fine, I will stick to what has been great, just think about it.
Good Luck
Dave M

Re: Engine idled then died; Cummins M11

Reply #5 – February 03, 2013, 12:43:15 pm

I hit the air purge button in the engine compartment and waited 80 seconds (per FT owners manual, re changing filters). Fuel entered the glass pre filter tube OK, presume this means fuel in the tank, and the filters are not clogged?

Tried to start, NG. repeated air purge, attempted start again, still NG.

Where is the fuel shut off solenoid? and how do I test it?

BTW, upon my return from the trip, I did have to climb a steep hill to the house where the coach is now dead in my driveway.

Re: Engine idled then died; Cummins M11

Reply #6 – February 03, 2013, 01:23:13 pm

Do not know of an external solenoid, is not like the C Series fuel system, it is all ECM controlled.
Could be low level fuel, would check with a stick to verify level of fuel.
If you have bubbles in the filer bowl on the Racor pump, my bet is on air entering the system. O Ring could be the issue or low fuel level, As I under stand that system, the purpose of using the purge button is to bleed the air and fill the filters so the engine can start up with very minimal cranking, works great after changing both fuel filters that I install dry, then purge, I do the sequence twice, bingo It runs.
Dave M

Re: Engine idled then died; Cummins M11

Reply #7 – February 03, 2013, 02:57:38 pm

Quote from: Fiddler – February 03, 2013, 12:43:15 pm

I hit the air purge button in the engine compartment and waited 80 seconds (per FT owners manual, re changing filters). Fuel entered the glass pre filter tube OK, presume this means fuel in the tank, and the filters are not clogged?

Tried to start, NG. repeated air purge, attempted start again, still NG.

Where is the fuel shut off solenoid? and how do I test it?

BTW, upon my return from the trip, I did have to climb a steep hill to the house where the coach is now dead in my driveway.

The reason I asked about the steep driveway before turning off, is that with a marginal fuel supply, either with a partially clogged filter, low fuel or a small air leak (like Dave mentioned with the O rings), the supply to rail can be low enough it won't stay running in the morning until it is primed again.

When I have to go up a steep hill, especially with low RPM, I like to idle the engine for a minute or so when I park it before shutting down. I have had this problem several times with cars and RVs so that was behind my guess.

Pierce

Re: Engine idled then died; Cummins M11

Reply #8 – February 03, 2013, 03:06:40 pm

Pierce, That is a good point, I never let tank get much below half per the VMCpc as I have little trust in the actual fuel gauge. This sort of issue can be a hair puller indeed, but from the issues I and others have had with that plastic O ringed bowl on the Racor pump, I now seem to jump that away quickly. There is no problem getting any parts for the origional setup through Racor.
Do like the thought.
Dave M

Re: Engine idled then died; Cummins M11

Reply #9 – February 03, 2013, 06:07:38 pm

Howdy Dave M,
Do you have the p/n for the plastic O ringed bowl and filter screen? I've had some trouble getting this part. Thanks in advance for your help, Dave A

Re: Engine idled then died; Cummins M11

Reply #10 – February 03, 2013, 06:31:09 pm

Hi Dave A,
The new plastic bowl with new O Rings is # 300200, Racor, know this 200200 system will become obsolete as there is a upgrade they claim, but the 300200 is available, think last one was about $30.00 best I recall.
I get all my Racor stuff at Central Diesel Richmond Va 804 275 3900
I have good luck with Dana.
Google Racor 200200 for a good run down and the upgrade info. I will stick with the original as long as parts are available.
They should last a good 5 years at least, but I replace lil more frequently.
Hope all is well
Dave M

Re: Engine idled then died; Cummins M11

Reply #11 – February 04, 2013, 06:20:59 am

Howdy Dave M, Thanks for the info...Dave A

Re: Engine idled then died; Cummins M11

Reply #12 – February 04, 2013, 05:10:18 pm

OK Dave A,
Just got the phone with Dana at Central Diesel, I have ordered two of the 300200 plastic bowls with the new O Rings, they are special order, 21 day lead time, shipped from the SC plant. Also IF your filter/pump has the S3230P Racor filter, it should have the metal bowl on the bottom with the electric probes for water detection too. IF that is the case, you already have the RK12963 Kit upgrade. So I plan on keeping a spare 300200 bowl w O Rings just in case. Maybe others with the M / ISM and others that might be using that Winn/Racor/Parker/Prime/Purge/Filter system, might also like a spare for when it happens.
Anyway Like I mentioned before, Central Diesel is where and their service is why I deal eith them, they speak English and produce results.
Dave M

Re: Engine idled then died; Cummins M11

Reply #13 – February 04, 2013, 05:14:16 pm

Howdy Dave M,
Thanks for the follow up.. Would you happen to have a phone number and the parts guys name?? Always, makes it easier to talk to someone, who knows the details.. I think I'll order a couple of them also..
Again, thanks for your help, talk to ya later, Dave A

Re: Engine idled then died; Cummins M11

Reply #14 – February 04, 2013, 05:22:39 pm

OK,
Central Diesel
804 275 3900 Eastern time 0800-1700 M-F
Ask For Dana in Parts, I have been dealing with him for many years, a no BS type.
and I mentioned he might be getting calls from folks needing that 300200 filter and maybe the RK12963 Kit.

Have fun,
Dave M

Re: Engine idled then died; Cummins M11

Reply #15 – February 04, 2013, 05:28:56 pm

Thanks Dave M, I'll give Dana a call tomorrow...
ttyl, Dave A

Re: Engine idled then died; Cummins M11

Reply #16 – February 05, 2013, 05:06:06 pm

Does it keep dying after a short while? We had a similar problem last year, turned out algae formed in the fuel. Replaced fuel filter, purchased Lucas bio-medic and filled with fresh fuel. No problems since.

Re: Engine idled then died; Cummins M11

Reply #17 – February 05, 2013, 10:51:11 pm

Fiddler,
Did you depress the Schraeder valve while purging, releasing after fuel is pushed out?

Re: Engine idled then died; Cummins M11

Reply #18 – February 06, 2013, 07:10:45 am

Howdy Dave M,
I gave Dana a call at Central Diesel yesterday and got a couple of the 300200s ordered. Dana was very knowledgeable and courteous.. Boy, its great dealing with professional folks. Thanks for your help with this, Dave A

Re: Engine idled then died; Cummins M11

Reply #19 – February 06, 2013, 11:52:44 pm

Thanks to all who contributed suggestions. Coach up and running today. Here's a brief summary of the solution that finally worked for me.

Tried emptying and reinstalling both primary and secondary fuel filters but it failed to do any good. Tried purging the air several times using the button on the panel in the engine compartment...also NG.
Turns out the glass pre-filter was leaking around the top O-ring (replaced with a new Racor 300200).
Apparently this leak in addition to the low fuel level in the tank caused the engine to quit. In order to cover all 3 pickups in the tank (ie Aqua Hot, Generator, Engine feed) had to put 40 gallons of Diesel in the tank (per instructions from the tech at Cummins South in Atlanta). Pretty slow and cumbersome process using (2) 5-gallon cans and 4 trips to the local gas station. BTW, tried starting the engine after 10 gallons, 20, and 30 but no luck.... 40 gallons did the trick. Will never allow the tank to drop below 1/4 again.

Re: Engine idled then died; Cummins M11

Reply #20 – February 07, 2013, 12:18:53 am

Your experience with the fuel level is consistent with my recent experience at FOT. I went in to FOT with around 1/3 tank of fuel, because I expected I might have a fuel line problem that would require pulling the fuel tank. Indeed, we needed new fuel lines. After they drained the tank, pulled the tank, replaced the lines, and put fuel back into the tank, the level was pretty low.

It took four mechanics and six batteries to start the coach after the new fuel lines were installed. The fuel level was pretty low after they had replaced all fuel lines. They had one mechanic on the ignition key/accelerator, one putting compressed air into the fuel tank, one pumping the manual prime pump, and one cracking the injector lines line to bleed air. They used the two chassis batteries, two house batteries via boost switch, one house battery via jumper cables, and another 8D battery via jumper cables to crank the engine. After all air was purged, starting effort returned to normal.

A full fuel tank raises the fuel level to a point that makes priming much easier. A full tank is a great advantage if you ever get air into the fuel lines.

Re: Engine idled then died; Cummins M11

Reply #21 – February 07, 2013, 05:42:05 am

Fiddler, Non surprise about the 300200 bowl with O Rings, a known weak link. Why I replace that item every few years, would not enjoy Fiddlers situation, also do keep tank with more fuel, rarely under half.

J.D, Geez, FOT making a Circus out of bleeding the fuel system, disappointing to say the least and would expect that type of action from Gomers garage.

Dave A, Glad you called Central Diesel, and agree on Dana, why I only deal with him at that outfit. I am too old and crotchety to work with idiots.
Dave M

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