1991 Grand Villa 8.2T ORED

Topic: 1991 Grand Villa 8.2T ORED - Gutless (Read 1258 times) previous topic - next topic

1991 Grand Villa 8.2T ORED - Gutless

July 27, 2013, 03:50:12 pm

Hi, we just bought the above noted coach, and so far we love the fit and finish, quality, and ride. What I am surprised by, is how slow this thing is going up hills. My research, and previous diesel experience had be thinking that going up hills my torque would help me maintain a decent speed. My mileage (thankfully) seems decent enough, but I am wearing out my knee trying to push the accelerator through the floor.

My 33' Cobra flies up hills, but I can watch the gas gauge spin backwards...

Is this normal with this DD engine..?

Thanks!

Re: 1991 Grand Villa 8.2T ORED - Gutless

Reply #1 – July 27, 2013, 07:35:47 pm

The 8.2 DD is a 4 cycle engine that can provide years of excellent service if well maintained and not modified. There are several boat forums and engine forums that give a much better insight than I can. From what I understand, there are several special tools needed to set these engines up correctly and very few have access to them. Unfortunately, the tools are no longer in production. It will really pay to read the info and contact knowledgeable owners to make your experience trouble free. Head gaskets seem to be a problem if the engine is overheated.

Before joining this forum, I had no idea they even existed. Here is a Google search page I brought up and probably a good place to start gathering information: 8.2 detroit diesel forum - Google Search

Pierce

Re: 1991 Grand Villa 8.2T ORED - Gutless

Reply #2 – July 27, 2013, 07:53:25 pm

91 8.2?

Bob

Re: 1991 Grand Villa 8.2T ORED - Gutless

Reply #3 – July 27, 2013, 08:08:41 pm

Dave,

Sure it is not a 1988 or 1989?

Pierce

Re: 1991 Grand Villa 8.2T ORED - Gutless

Reply #4 – July 28, 2013, 10:44:25 am

How many HP is your Motor,

Re: 1991 Grand Villa 8.2T ORED - Gutless

Reply #5 – July 30, 2013, 03:52:04 pm

Hi, thanks for the comments; I am now very sad to think that this lovely coach has such a dismal engine

It is this one;

1991 Foretravel ORED Specifications

Thanks!

Re: 1991 Grand Villa 8.2T ORED - Gutless

Reply #6 – July 30, 2013, 04:09:31 pm

Re-reading the original post I'm wondering if this might be a matter of perception. How much slower and how big a hill are two questions that spring to mind.

It seems to me that fuel mileage would be an indicator of problems that would lead to the symptom of not pulling hills well. Poor mileage might mean leaks somewhere in the system or air getting in somewhere; both of these would impact performance adversely.

You report that your fuel consumption is ok so that's probably not the cause. Does the transmission shift down to keep the revs up? Can you manually shift down to keep the revs up?

My '93 U225 with a Cummins B5.9 engine will slow to about 35mph on steep mountain grades. That is still often faster than fully loaded 18-wheelers on the same grade but a lot of people might think that it's overly sluggish.

Can you give us specifics?

Craig

Re: 1991 Grand Villa 8.2T ORED - Gutless

Reply #7 – July 30, 2013, 04:13:46 pm

I know nothing about the 8.2 engine in yours, but I can relate to your predicament. When I first drove my 1994 U-240 I thought I still had the brakes on. No power going up even slight hills, and it took a long time to get up a head of steam. We found a leak in the exhaust system which was bypassing the turbo. MOT repaired the leak, and it was suddenly a new coach. If your's has a turbo, it might be worth checking.

Glen

Re: 1991 Grand Villa 8.2T ORED - Gutless

Reply #8 – July 30, 2013, 04:46:01 pm

So your coach has a GVWR of 20,500 lbs. with a 210 hp engine.
Here's a comparison. Mine is 30,000 lbs. (actual about exactly that with my toad) with a 300 hp engine. On 6% grades I slow down to 37 mph.
We both have about the same weight per horsepower (around 100 lbs./hp) which is considered to be an OK number - especially in '91.
If your running much slow than this your engine might need some attention. Note that this speed can easily vary depending on the exact gearing. When I'm going 37 mph on the grade it feels like there's a tad more power left but it just can't make it to the next gear and likes to stay around 2100 rpm (for my particular engine). I believe these coaches were geared (ie. rear end ratio) for cruising on the flats - grades are the exception. In later years when the 6 speed came along this was less of a compromise.

Newer coaches have more HP but they have also gained weight (but not as much as HP gain). Newer Foretravels have less weight per HP but many other makes still have about this same ratio.
On the plus side is you will get better mileage than if you had a bigger engine. When others brag about how fast they can fly up a grade, change the subject and brag about your mileage. No such thing as a free lunch - enjoy what you've got.

Re: 1991 Grand Villa 8.2T ORED - Gutless

Reply #9 – July 30, 2013, 06:39:58 pm

I had an old MBZ van that could actually see hills coming up and would start slowing down before we even got there. 60hp/2 liters for a 5000 lb. vehicle.

OK, as others have said, check turbo pressure. Make sure you don't have any leaks, cracks or chunks out of the exhaust manifold and then put a gauge on it to see if the turbo is coming up to speed and pressure is up to specs.

Keep tires at max pressure. You don't have the luxury of Simmons/Serta style pressures.

Check air cleaner. This made a noticeable difference on ours.

The 8.2 is reputed to be a higher RPM engine so don't expect low revs to pull hills without gearing down and keeping tach up toward the redline.

How does it start cold? Idle smoothly?

Contact other 8.2 forums with your engine questions. They may be able to help. Possible exhaust system modification might be a subject.

Don't overheat this engine!

Pierce

Re: 1991 Grand Villa 8.2T ORED - Gutless

Reply #10 – July 30, 2013, 06:57:29 pm

I have the 6V92TA and what I have found is you want to get the revs and turbo boost going before you start up the hill (manually downshift if necessary). Once you're on the hill and you loose revs and boost, there is no getting it back...

On level ground you should be able to tell if the turbo is kicking in - you should be able to feel it. I find with our coach you really need to put your foot into it, much more so than driving a car. Don't be afraid to push that foot pedal...

Re: 1991 Grand Villa 8.2T ORED - Gutless

Reply #11 – July 30, 2013, 07:03:54 pm

The Detroit 8.2 engine is a low-horsepower and low-torque diesel engine. The specs I've found indicate that it has perhaps 500 lb-ft of torque. Compare that with my 400 hp Cummins M11, which has about 1350 lb-ft of torque.

Many people concern themselves primarily with horsepower, but torque is what really makes things happen--particularly when it comes to hill-climbing ability.

There may be reasonable things you can do to improve your performance, but I suspect you'll just need to learn to be satisfied with what you have.

Re: 1991 Grand Villa 8.2T ORED - Gutless

Reply #12 – July 30, 2013, 09:15:39 pm

Quote from: DaveLarose – July 30, 2013, 03:52:04 pm

Hi, thanks for the comments; I am now very sad to think that this lovely coach has such a dismal engine

It is this one;

1991 Foretravel ORED Specifications

Thanks!

The date on that 1991 model states effective at 20-3-1990, So that makes it a 1989 Build,

210 HP is not much, When compared to my 1989 Grand villa with 300 HP Cat engine,

I drive up a 1 in 3 drive way, It is a fast idle, and I can put my foot down and it will accelerate up the drive,The extra HP makes a big difference,

You may have to invest in a bigger motor for your Coach,

Re: 1991 Grand Villa 8.2T ORED - Gutless

Reply #13 – July 30, 2013, 09:55:19 pm

Forgot about that model. The 545 Allison also never locks the torque converter. Slips

Bob

Re: 1991 Grand Villa 8.2T ORED - Gutless

Reply #14 – July 30, 2013, 11:44:09 pm

Torque converter slippage means a large loss of power. When our U300 goes into lockup part way through 2nd gear, it really leaps forward. A slipping, power robbing transmission is the last thing a low power rig needs. This coach would be at its best traveling in the mid-west or east where there are not many hills to struggle up.

As far as changing engines, the 8.2 is a high RPM low torque engine. Trying to mate a lower RPM Cummins or a 2 cycle Detroit to it would require a rear ratio change as the low RPM Cummins would be all done at 60 mph.

To make a real change, the engine, transmission and rear end ratio would all need to be done plus there is always a laundry list of additional connections, modifications, etc. to be done plus a whole lot of cash unless you can do it all yourself. Plus the time involved.

Pierce

Re: 1991 Grand Villa 8.2T ORED - Gutless

Reply #15 – July 31, 2013, 12:08:40 am

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – July 30, 2013, 06:39:58 pm

I had an old MBZ van that could actually see hills coming up and would start slowing down before we even got there.

ROFL!!! I had to read this out loud to the DW. Great comment.

Craig

Re: 1991 Grand Villa 8.2T ORED - Gutless

Reply #16 – July 31, 2013, 02:39:02 am

I had thought, perhaps mistakenly, that the low horsepower (from my pre-research) would be compensated more by the diesel's torque. Right now it is nice to drive at speed, really quite a bit better than my Cobra Class A, but turn onto a slight grade highway on-ramp, and hit cruise control, meander to the back use the washroom, pour a nice cool beverage, wave to everyone passing, trying to pass, or asleep behind me, and then wander back to the cockpit in time to signal for the merge.

I have it into a good shop right now for a thorough checkover, will see what they say, but now I also have some more thoughtful, and useful suggestions for them as well.

Thanks a lot!

Dave

Re: 1991 Grand Villa 8.2T ORED - Gutless

Reply #17 – July 31, 2013, 07:50:23 am

Nitehawk, here on the forum has a similar coach with the same engine. You might want to send him a Private Message to start a dialogue.

Re: 1991 Grand Villa 8.2T ORED - Gutless

Reply #18 – July 31, 2013, 09:48:16 pm

Quote from: DaveLarose – July 31, 2013, 02:39:02 am

I had thought, perhaps mistakenly, that the low horsepower (from my pre-research) would be compensated more by the diesel's torque. Right now it is nice to drive at speed, really quite a bit better than my Cobra Class A, but turn onto a slight grade highway on-ramp, and hit cruise control, meander to the back use the washroom, pour a nice cool beverage, wave to everyone passing, trying to pass, or asleep behind me, and then wander back to the cockpit in time to signal for the merge.

I have it into a good shop right now for a thorough checkover, will see what they say, but now I also have some more thoughtful, and useful suggestions for them as well.

Thanks a lot!

Dave

Does the 8.2 have an adjustable fuel pressure pump? The older 8.3 cummins had one.

Same as the 5.9's. if the little inspection cover was removed someone so inclined could add more fuel from the pump.

Of course no one I know would turn up a 5.9, 8.2 or 8.3 but I have heard of dastardly people turning that adjustement screw in. Just to go faster. Can you believe that? Some people. Why would they want more free hp?

They might have to monitor the temps more. I understand that it might have been a noticeable help. More fuel more heat so common sense is required.

I remember no issues for the scum who modded their stuff. Some have hundreds of thousands of miles since.....

My memory is selective but still there I guess.

Bob

Re: 1991 Grand Villa 8.2T ORED - Gutless

Reply #19 – August 01, 2013, 10:55:33 am

The Detroit Diesel/Allison "Fuel Pincher"! I can't really think of any good thing except---- THEY DON'T MAKE THEM ANYMORE. They also don't make re-mans or parts either. Watch the temperature very closely and don't let it get hot. With that engine, it really depends on horsepower, because of it low torque. It is high reving with 3300 rpms at high idle. It will go to 230 HP, but if it runs well and has a good history, I'd leave it along. If and when it ever dies, I'd drop in a Cummins 5.9 6BT. After running that Fuel Pincher, the Cummins 5.9 will really impress you.

Oh, tune ups are extremely expensive compared to other diesels. Require expensive tools.

Re: 1991 Grand Villa 8.2T ORED - Gutless

Reply #20 – August 01, 2013, 12:35:46 pm

Quote from: DaveLarose – July 27, 2013, 03:50:12 pm

My research, and previous diesel experience had be thinking that going up hills my torque would help me maintain a decent speed.

Is this normal with this DD engine..?

Thanks!

Torque gets you up the hill, Horsepower gets you up the hill fast.

Roland

Re: 1991 Grand Villa 8.2T ORED - Gutless

Reply #21 – August 02, 2013, 10:03:56 am

It seems odd to me that so many people have trouble with this engine?? I have ran them for years in heavy trucks, school buses, and my Foretravel with no trouble. I agree their not extremely powerful but, they're not dogs. I have one in a single axle GMC tractor that hauls an lowboy trailer with a 35K lb crawler on it and it does a fine job. I can maintain 60mph on the highway easy enough. The truck is geared much lower than the motorhome and uses a 13spd transmission so that makes a difference. With proper care these are good engines. Don't be scared of it. My coach will keep up with traffic and most normal highway grades don't slow it down. Now a steep one will bring it down but, it not a big deal. I set the cruise on 65 and enjoy the ride and the 12mpg!!

Re: 1991 Grand Villa 8.2T ORED - Gutless

Reply #22 – August 02, 2013, 10:21:41 am

Quote from: jaholder76 – August 02, 2013, 10:03:56 am

It seems odd to me that so many people have trouble with this engine?? I have ran them for years in heavy trucks, school buses, and my Foretravel with no trouble. I agree their not extremely powerful but, they're not dogs. I have one in a single axle GMC tractor that hauls an lowboy trailer with a 35K lb crawler on it and it does a fine job. I can maintain 60mph on the highway easy enough. The truck is geared much lower than the motorhome and uses a 13spd transmission so that makes a difference. With proper care these are good engines. Don't be scared of it. My coach will keep up with traffic and most normal highway grades don't slow it down. Now a steep one will bring it down but, it not a big deal. I set the cruise on 65 and enjoy the ride and the 12mpg!!

Your coach has a 643 Allison trans with a lockup torque converter. The poster here has a 545 non lockup trans. Big difference,

Bob

Re: 1991 Grand Villa 8.2T ORED - Gutless

Reply #23 – August 02, 2013, 10:34:32 am

Good point. I should have caught that.

Re: 1991 Grand Villa 8.2T ORED - Gutless

Reply #24 – August 02, 2013, 12:10:34 pm

The first time I drove ours after we bought it in N.C. was all back roads with no chance for sustained full throttle. I was thinking all the time, "this thing must be really heavy cause it barely gets out of it's own way". When we hit the highway and lockup (before I knew what lockup was), I started thinking, "wonder what is wrong with 1st and 2nd gear."

Having a lockup tranny is like a 75-100hp gift with much better mileage and less radiator/transmission temp load to boot. Wonder what it would cost to do a conversion or if it is even feasible?

Pierce

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