Another NADA and another RV cost efficiency discussion

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Another NADA and another RV cost efficiency discussion

October 16, 2013, 10:16:06 am

I have been looking for a FT or Bluebird for the past 3 years.

I recently looked at a 1991 BB that the owner was asking $38,000 for.
He and I were shocked to see its value in NADA and Kelly down around the $8,000 to $10,000 range.
I was the only looker that he had had in 6 months.

When filling a Foretravel's fuel tanks beginning to cost (at least in the Northeast ) upwards of $1500.00 you really have to stop and think about buying one and the disposal problems after ownership has run its course.

For that kind of money I can stay at the "Ritz Carlton" for the next ten years and not be bothered by the ownership problems ( maintenance, fueling, storage, and driving )

All that said I am still looking.

Re: Another NADA and another RV cost efficiency discussion

Reply #1 – October 16, 2013, 10:21:21 am

Quote from: Donmystic1 – October 16, 2013, 10:16:06 am

I recently looked at a 1991 BB that the owner was asking $38,000 for.
He and I were shocked to see its value in NADA and Kelly down around the $8,000 to $10,000 range.

We've lobbed around the NADA, et. al., discussion many times before. Useful only for large volume, identical model data. There aren't enough data points for statistically meaningful data on small volume RVs to produce dollar values that are representative. May be used by financial institutions to determine what they will loan, but that's about the usefulness of those numbers.

Re: Another NADA and another RV cost efficiency discussion

Reply #2 – October 16, 2013, 11:05:49 am

You must add every single piece of std equipement to the values.

Old birds are old metal boxes. Two miles of wires are somewhat intimidating to most.

Round roof at the edges lowers the interior height at the shower a lot. Not good if you are tall.

Try Kelly blue book. It used to be too high long ago on birds.

Bob

Re: Another NADA and another RV cost efficiency discussion

Reply #3 – October 16, 2013, 11:08:53 am

One has to realize that NADA is just like a computer, dependent on accurate input from humans. In the case of NADA, these humans are the sales managers of auto, truck, motorcycle, RVs, and manufactured homes and if it doesn't directly affect them, they could care less about inputting the information. The NADAguides database is determined by: auction transactions, retail sales data, and asking prices from classified listing sites. And the people who run these auctions, retail lots, and classified listing sites are suppose to input their info into NADA data. Well, it is like this - they are to busy doing other things and they don't bother. So you end up getting ridiculous pricing values like you quote.

While on the topic, have you noticed the significant price differences between NADA and Kelley Blue Book? NADAs answer is that their information is better. They also say: "All values are only a guide and prices will always be above or below the guide values for vehicles". What a mouth full - "above or below the guide value"!!! No where do they tell you any percentages of how much above or below! No where do they tell you if the coach had had a complete rebuild/remodel, which would be similar to a "glider kit" on a used class 8 tractor, which effectively turns it into a new class 8 tractor. No where do they tell you how many 1991 BB or FT they counted. But they do tell you they added everything up and divided by something.

One thing I have noticed over my many years. A dealer will use auction figures to determine what he will give you on a trade in value on your vehicle, and then the will turn around and use a NADA book that is not available to you, to value the used vehicle he want to sell you. But NADA will make a completely different book, with completely different values, and make it available to you. They tell me my 1994 U225 has a average retail of $6,860 and I consider that a insult when I compare my coach to new units at RV shows. And you try to find a 1994 Foretravel U225 for sale at that price!!! So much for the information NADA is pulling off the classified listing sites !!!

Re: Another NADA and another RV cost efficiency discussion

Reply #4 – October 16, 2013, 11:12:09 am

Quote from: PatC – October 16, 2013, 11:08:53 am

While on the topic, have you noticed the significant price differences between NADA and Kelley Blue Book?

Favorite Rv industry quote from 25 years ago. "Buy on NADA, sell on Kelly"

Bob

Re: Another NADA and another RV cost efficiency discussion

Reply #5 – October 16, 2013, 12:40:39 pm

Quote from: Donmystic1 – October 16, 2013, 10:16:06 am

For that kind of money I can stay at the "Ritz Carlton" for the next ten years and not be bothered by the ownership problems ( maintenance, fueling, storage, and driving )

All that said I am still looking.

Regarding "cost efficiency," the immediate costs of our travels in the FT are probably similar to other modes travel. The total cost of ownership increases the price tag a lot. However, I get no pleasure from flying on commercial airlines, staying in hotels, using public toilets, and eating out at every meal.

If I wanted to save money, I would not own a Foretravel, two motorcycles, and four other vehicles. However, I'm willing, and fortunately able (so far), to pay for my old vehicles and enjoy using them. I would get little pleasure from staying at the Ritz Carlton at any price.

I had a friend who owned an Allegro coach in the 1970s. Someone told him he could stay at the finest hotels for what it cost him to own and operate the Allegro. His response was that the finest hotels were not where he wanted to be.

I suggest to people that there are more expensive ways to travel than in a DP motorhome, but they usually involve hiring some kind of pilot or captain. Isn't it grand that we have so many choices, including the opportunity to be good people and happy people.

Re: Another NADA and another RV cost efficiency discussion

Reply #6 – October 16, 2013, 12:54:33 pm

Quote from: Donmystic1 – October 16, 2013, 10:16:06 am

For that kind of money I can stay at the "Ritz Carlton" for the next ten years and not be bothered by the ownership problems ( maintenance, fueling, storage, and driving )

All that said I am still looking.

Not understanding here. Why are you defying your own logic and continuing to look? If ongoing costs of ownership are going to detract from pleasure too much, why put yourself through that? Kind of like owning a sportfisher, eh?

Re: Another NADA and another RV cost efficiency discussion

Reply #7 – October 16, 2013, 01:51:13 pm

Drive one before you decide. For me, "driving" is part of the upside, not a problem.. as opposed to my SOB we used to have. it won't help with deciding about running costs or dealing with maintenence but it may help decide if it's worth getting the thing in the first place. When we travel, half the fun is in getting there and "there" is pretty much never an RV park. No matter, we're comfortable as all getout regardless.. and both of us sleep ever so much better in our mobile vacation cottage than we do in any hotel!

Re: Another NADA and another RV cost efficiency discussion

Reply #8 – October 16, 2013, 08:54:49 pm

Quote from: J. D. Stevens – October 16, 2013, 12:40:39 pm

I suggest to people that there are more expensive ways to travel than in a DP motorhome, but they usually involve hiring some kind of pilot or captain. Isn't it grand that we have so many choices, including the opportunity to be good people and happy people.

Just a very polite and thoughtful opinion that one could take to the bank! Thank you for this helpful post.

Re: Another NADA and another RV cost efficiency discussion

Reply #9 – October 16, 2013, 11:47:59 pm

Quote from: twobus – October 16, 2013, 01:51:13 pm

Drive one before you decide. For me, "driving" is part of the upside, not a problem.. as opposed to my SOB we used to have. it won't help with deciding about running costs or dealing with maintenence but it may help decide if it's worth getting the thing in the first place. When we travel, half the fun is in getting there and "there" is pretty much never an RV park. No matter, we're comfortable as all getout regardless.. and both of us sleep ever so much better in our mobile vacation cottage than we do in any hotel!

Very good. As you said you have to be partially into the journey plus the destination.

Had an accountant across my desk pencil the operating costs of a gas coach versus a diesel coach for a half hour. Belts and fuel and everything. After 1\2 an hour I reached across the desk and grabbed his hand. My comment was "this doesn't pencil. You have to want this. This is a depreciating asset. This is where you spend the money you made."

He laughed. And said now that I explained it to him he wanted the diesel.

Bob

Re: Another NADA and another RV cost efficiency discussion

Reply #10 – October 17, 2013, 12:11:23 am

Remember that many states base sales tax amounts on the "Bill of Sale" or written amount the seller is willing to put down. In my state (WA) for many years it was common to buy a vehicle and have the seller ask, "So..... what amount should I put down in the sales price part?" and would put virtually any figure you told him to put in there.

This became so rampant here that the State has moved to using Kelly as a starting point for a vehicle and making the buyer (who pays the sales tax) prove (using another web site) different. I bought my 1999 Jeep Wrangler for $4,000 and told the seller to put down the correct amount. He folded up the $4k in cash and wrote down $4,000. When I went to pay the sales tax they wanted sales tax based on $7,000!!! I demurred.

The lady at the counter (not a government employee but a contract agent) told me of another web site that was considerably less than the one the State used. That one said $4,300. Still more than I had paid... but I turned that in and ended up paying on that amount.

I suspect that a lot of fiddling is done with the sales numbers.

Craig

Re: Another NADA and another RV cost efficiency discussion

Reply #11 – October 17, 2013, 06:20:07 am

Keep in mind that NADA and Kelly are guides on which dealers, banks, state agency's, and insurance company's use to value vehicles. As others have said they get their information from sales, auctions and so on. Additionally with NADA there are 2 value guides Consumer (free), and commercial (that you pay for). With that said, in reality after a certain point in time things stop depreciating on the % per year scale. Also as a buyer weather you can finance an RV (usually less than 10 years old) has an impact on the value to some extent. The point is if one was looking at an RV that is 20 years old sitting in the corner of a lot with weeds growing from under it, NADA w/sale or less. On the other hand if one was looking at the same RV with upgrades, new tires and battery's, all mechanical systems up to snuff with records ready to run the value guides are out the window. JMHO

Re: Another NADA and another RV cost efficiency discussion

Reply #12 – October 17, 2013, 04:19:47 pm

I agree completely with the comments on staying and eating in a hotel vs driving and staying in a FT. And I don't even own one yet! But I've driven three and I know what I like. We're still looking and shopping for our first FT.

Re: Another NADA and another RV cost efficiency discussion

Reply #13 – October 17, 2013, 05:16:38 pm

Quote from: wa_desert_rat – October 17, 2013, 12:11:23 am

Remember that many states base sales tax amounts on the "Bill of Sale" or written amount the seller is willing to put down. In my state (WA) for many years it was common to buy a vehicle and have the seller ask, "So..... what amount should I put down in the sales price part?" and would put virtually any figure you told him to put in there.

This became so rampant here that the State has moved to using Kelly as a starting point for a vehicle and making the buyer (who pays the sales tax) prove (using another web site) different. I bought my 1999 Jeep Wrangler for $4,000 and told the seller to put down the correct amount. He folded up the $4k in cash and wrote down $4,000. When I went to pay the sales tax they wanted sales tax based on $7,000!!! I demurred.

The lady at the counter (not a government employee but a contract agent) told me of another web site that was considerably less than the one the State used. That one said $4,300. Still more than I had paid... but I turned that in and ended up paying on that amount.

I suspect that a lot of fiddling is done with the sales numbers.

Craig

I was thinking exactly that, but did not want to get into it, as my dw used to work at the local DMV office. Happened quite often and they started using the book as a guide if they thought some one was "cheating". DW was promoted into the county clerk's (county recorder) office that is oversees the local DMV office, but now only does their payroll and is more involved in deed and court recording along with financial end of things.

Re: Another NADA and another RV cost efficiency discussion

Reply #14 – October 17, 2013, 06:20:24 pm

Texas, in its continued efforts to shake the money tree, used something called "assumed presumptive value". It does not take into account condition of the vehicle and is not Kelly or Blue book. It is non negotiable unless you pay for an appraisal at a car dealer, a surprisingly expensive endeavor. Basically, it seems to be high retail, if you get a good deal on purchase price you'll give up some of it in tax. In fairness, too many folks in the past said "I paid 500.00 for it." No mas.

Re: Another NADA and another RV cost efficiency discussion

Reply #15 – October 17, 2013, 10:05:16 pm

RVing is a way of life. I do not know many people that do it because it is a cheaper way of life. Most do it because they enjoy travel that includes seeing wonderful places and meeting wonderful people. As a guy that used to travel by plane and car while staying in many great hotels to earn a living, I would rather live this lifestyle than any other - right now. My opinion might change next year or next month but for right now it is the best decision for me. Is it costing more than I anticipated? Yes. Would I change anything I have done? No.

For me, I would rather sleep in my own bed and have the ability to cook my meals when I want. When I want a change of scenery, I unhook, pull in the slides, start the engine and enjoy.

My best suggestion would be: If you would rather stay in the Ritz - do it.

Scott

Re: Another NADA and another RV cost efficiency discussion

Reply #16 – October 18, 2013, 06:40:04 am

Quote from: Donmystic1 – October 16, 2013, 10:16:06 am

For that kind of money I can stay at the "Ritz Carlton" for the next ten years and not be bothered by the ownership problems ( maintenance, fueling, storage, and driving )

Probably true, but the thing is, there are no Ritz Carltons at the sand dunes, (Dumont, Pismo Beach, Glamis) at Lake Shasta, Moab, King of the Hammers, Tuolumne Meadows, etc. So I suppose it depends on where you like to go.

Re: Another NADA and another RV cost efficiency discussion

Reply #17 – October 18, 2013, 09:33:59 am

There is no cost efficiency in the RV lifestyle whether you full time or just weekend camp for the enjoyment of being outdoors. You just decide to do it. If you choose a Foretravel, then it means you like good stuff to do it in...Enjoy!

Re: Another NADA and another RV cost efficiency discussion

Reply #18 – October 18, 2013, 10:14:21 am

Rather than NADA, just use the Half Rule. Pay half again what it's worth and sell it for half what you have into it. Once you are at peace with the Half Rule, you quit worrying about it. Good luck.
jor

Re: Another NADA and another RV cost efficiency discussion

Reply #19 – October 18, 2013, 10:49:55 am

Quote from: jor – October 18, 2013, 10:14:21 am

Rather than NADA, just use the Half Rule. Pay half again what it's worth and sell it for half what you have into it. Once you are at peace with the Half Rule, you quit worrying about it. Good luck.
jor

Very well stated

Re: Another NADA and another RV cost efficiency discussion

Reply #20 – October 18, 2013, 12:09:56 pm

So if you sell it for 1/2 of what you have into your primary home or second home the difference is either a capital gain or capital loss. With motorhomes it is likely to be a capital loss. Whe you file your taxes you can offset your other capital gains with this capital loss. It makes the pain of selling either asset a little less taxing.

I sometimes wonder how folks who buy a new coach every two or three years do it. Maybe this helps.

Roger

Re: Another NADA and another RV cost efficiency discussion

Reply #21 – October 18, 2013, 07:40:02 pm

Id they buy a new coach every 2 years, they probably don't even worry about it !!!

Re: Another NADA and another RV cost efficiency discussion

Reply #22 – October 18, 2013, 10:20:36 pm

You can buy a pretty nice new-to-you Foretravel motor home for the price of a good new car nowadays; and sometimes less. We shelled out less than the price for a new Kia for ours. And I'd rather drive it than most cars. The last thing I was worried about was the NADA price.

Craig

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