Several questions regarding two FTs we are considering

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Several questions regarding two FTs we are considering

March 07, 2015, 04:26:00 pm

We are considering two FTs that we've looked over fairly well and have a few questions. One is a 97' U320 M-4000 with an estimated 100k miles that presently can't be test driven because a peculiar situation and where it is located, which is a ways from where owner lives. I asked the owner to go over the coach with me yesterday to show how everything worked, but when it came time to show to demo everything, he was barely able to demo anything requiring power because the house batteries were too low to start the generator and there wasn't a shore line. I asked him to start the engine but I forgot to get by the exhaust pipe to see what, if any smoke or debris came out. The engine started quickly though the coach batteries were being currently being charged with a high output commercial charger. He tried using the boost switch to start the generator but either there was a problem with the boost switch or the house batteries were too low, and/or there were other issues going on.. When I asked him to start the M11 a second time after 30 minutes or so, more than a little bluish white smoke exited the tail pipe for a couple of seconds then stopped. No debris or other smoke exited and the engine idle good. I went back and read several posts from various forums as to what the bluish smoke may indicate, there seemed to be varied opinions ranging from, 'all diesels smoke a little with a cold start', to 'could indicate sticking piston rings or bad seals' or several other reasons that could indicate a serious problem. How concerned should I be about the bluish smoke from an engine that wasn't cold but neither was it at operating temp? The coach hasn't been run much in the last year and a half, but was driven about 40 miles to it's present location a week or two ago.

The other coach is an 01' U295 4010 with a 350 hp ISC, with 47k miles. My main concern with the coach is that there was a 'Banks Big Head' aftermarket turbocharger kit (?) installed. I assume it's aftermarket. The black paint on the valve cover is pealing. Lots of coaches we've looked at over the last year have had pealing paint on the valve cover though I don't know if it's significant or not.

Questions.
Was the 'Bans Big Head' an aftermarket installation? If so, could it have raised the turbo temps or engine temps to the point that it may have cased the paint pealing, or is this simply a matter of environment?
If the Banks was an aftermarket installation, what damage if any could the kit do to the engine and is it something we should be concerned with, and/or could it make the engine more susceptible to future problems?
Also, after the slide had been retracted and we prepared to take the coach for a test drive, light still showing through the inflated slide bladder but only at the two curved upper corners. The salesman and my wife said that when he initially demoed the slide and the bladder filled, there was no outside light showing through at the corners. Is this a matter of operator error or is this situation common? The bladder did seem to stay inflated. The coach road nice at expressway speeds and seemed quite though this was the first time we had actually driven in a FT.

Gary

Re: Several questions regarding two FTs we are considering

Reply #1 – March 07, 2015, 04:58:24 pm

While the u295 is an excellent coach the u320's Aqua hot and the bigger motor are definately my personal choices.

No slides means less service and more interior storage and bay storage and less purchase price.

The aftermarket banks engineering system is an excellent product. That the owner thought it was necessary is somewhat the point.

The midwest and eastern folks find the mid sized cummins works quite well in the 295

The u320's m11 puts it into a different class than any comparable Rv.

Rocky Mountain coach. Million mile motor.

No replacement for more displacement is still true.

Do you change lanes when coming up to an intersection if another lane is open? If you would stay behind another car with an open lane next to you then the motor difference may not be as important.

If you would move over I would certainly look quickly at the u320.

Replace every battery in the coach always. Replace the cable ends. Install a 130 watt solar panel to keep the house batteries charged then start going through the systems.

Easy $10k if not $20k to make everything good for ten years.

Enjoy.

Re: Several questions regarding two FTs we are considering

Reply #2 – March 07, 2015, 05:38:37 pm

If the Banks package was designed by Banks for that engine then it's unlikely to cause any harm. The Banks people really know what they're doing. I have a Banks Stinger package on my '93 U225 and the extra power makes a big difference. Powered only by a Cummins 5.9 (the same engine that Dodge put into its pickup trucks) the motor home runs easily at freeway speeds (although I keep it at 60 most of the time). On a 2,000 mile trip in Dec/Jan I was passing 18-wheelers on the grades even towing a Jeep Wrangler. The only 18-wheelers that passed me were almost certainly light. I would have no concerns about the Banks as long as it was the right version for that engine/transmission combination.

I couldn't speak to your other questions since I have no experience with the U320 (or the U295 for that matter). I have to say that I prefer no slides for the reasons Bob mentioned.

I think I'd choose the one that runs.

John Haygarth has a U295 with Banks and he seems pretty pleased with it.. You might want to send him a PM.

Craig

Re: Several questions regarding two FTs we are considering

Reply #3 – March 07, 2015, 06:28:28 pm

We prefer the U320 upgrades but could live with either. I had concerns with both coaches, especially the 320 because it's being sold by a private owner who purchased another FT 1-2 years ago and this one has sat. There are too many unknowns because it can't be checked out properly though I think it had been well cared for and garaged in a dry environment before the owners quit using it. Something else that concerns us is why they waited so long to sell it. We were told the owners couldn't make up their minds if they liked this coach or their newer FT but I'm wary. Several things we've been told don't add up or seem to contradict other things they've said. Having it properly inspect would answer a lot questions but that may be possible.
About the 295. A while back I checked out the Banks website and didn't see a kit for this particular engine. It may be that they stopped making a kit for the ISC. The 8.3l block used for the ISC is the same as the one used for the earlier C model engines that produced less hp. Since Cummins had already boosted the hp I wonder how much more hp could be increased without stressing the engine. I may need to contact Banks and talk to one of the techs.
Gary

Re: Several questions regarding two FTs we are considering

Reply #4 – March 07, 2015, 07:06:23 pm

Gary, These are quite different coaches in terms of features and significantly different price points.

If you are going to load it up and go and pull a 4500 lb toad out west then focus on the U320. A complete fluids analysis (all of the fluids, ending, transmission, AH and generator) and some help understanding the results is a good starting point. If you are not comfortable doing a pre delivery inspection yourself find some help. Big ticket items like batteries should be considered in your offer.

I haven't run into an ISM450 owner yet who wished they had less power and a lot of 350HP owners who are happy with what they have.

When you are ready and the the right coach is in front of you you will know it. If it doesn't feel right keep on learning, keep on asking and keep on looking.

Roger

Re: Several questions regarding two FTs we are considering

Reply #5 – March 07, 2015, 08:45:24 pm

As was mentioned by Craig we have the 350 and Banks and I would NOT be without it. The engine handles the extra HP easily and does not complain. It climbs hills like a Jaguar and I feel the extra HP must be in the region of 35+. Once I did the change over from Muffler to Resonator it made a touch more improvement. My banks stopped working (otterman) a few years ago and I thought I was towing a 350 truck heavy towed. Once I found the problem (loss of 12v) it was all good again. PO had it put in at Banks in Azuza CA (Factory).
Not one complaint this end.
JohnH

Re: Several questions regarding two FTs we are considering

Reply #6 – March 07, 2015, 10:23:25 pm

Thanks guys. John, good to hear from someone that has the same motor with a Banks system. Does your system have a wastegate actuator just above the turbocharger with the words 'Banks Big Head'? Lots of good comments on various forums from coach owners who have the stinger system on their 98'-03' 350 hp ISC engines though a few of them also had the Ottomind computer fail. Also lots of discussions about how the increased hp may negatively affect the 3000MH Allisons. Unfortunately Banks discontinued that system for the 98'-03' 8.3L Cummins in late 2012 so if the Ottomind fails there probably won't be a replacement. They still make systems for the lower hp 93'-98' 8.3L engines but apparently the older motors require a different computer module. Banks Products for DIESEL MOTORHOMES - CUMMINS

Has anyone experienced bluish, or bluish-white smoke exiting their tailpipe with cold or hot start?

Gary

Re: Several questions regarding two FTs we are considering

Reply #7 – March 08, 2015, 11:29:11 am

Yes mine does have that if I remember correctly. I have the Ottermind and I can imagine that if it is not protected from moisture it will fail. The PO after having it installed years ago decided to pressure wash the engine WITHOUT covering the thing up and blew it. he replaced it and told me to be careful about that. I immediatly used a heavy gauge plastic to completely cover it and staple down to frame in corner of engine compartment. No problems, but will not let a steam cleaner/pressure wash be used on engine. The guys at Cummins in PHX after this latest fiasco said they will clean the engine for me and I said NO thanks because of this. I sure hope when we get back to coach next Wednesday they have not done this while we have been away from it for over a month. There is also a small inline fuse close by it that can be blown if it gets wet and engine is started before it dries. I have done that one once.
JohnH

Re: Several questions regarding two FTs we are considering

Reply #8 – March 09, 2015, 12:11:08 am

A little smoke at cold start is normal for the M11. It should disappear almost instantly.

Re: Several questions regarding two FTs we are considering

Reply #9 – March 09, 2015, 07:23:58 am

I get a little smoke at startup when it is cold all the time. Nothing to worry about if it is gone after you start.

Re: Several questions regarding two FTs we are considering

Reply #10 – March 09, 2015, 11:14:25 am

White smoke at first start up on very cold day is un-burned fuel coming out as mist.
I installed my Stinger at 85,000 mile and had the turbo go out at 125,00 miles.
No trouble with the Ottermind as I installed in the enclosure under the bed.

Re: Several questions regarding two FTs we are considering

Reply #11 – March 09, 2015, 11:48:17 am

Quote from: olddigger – March 07, 2015, 10:23:25 pm

Has anyone experienced bluish, or bluish-white smoke exiting their tailpipe with cold or hot start?
Gary

More on a cold start, less on a hot. Normal.

Pierce

Re: Several questions regarding two FTs we are considering

Reply #12 – March 09, 2015, 04:14:06 pm

Determining the condition of any diesel engine without putting it through its paces is not a path to follow.
Unless the current owner has whatever you are looking to buy ready to go for a ride, I would be hard pressed to make a purchase.
Both the 8.3L/M11 Cummins are excellent engines and most likely not going to be an issue.
Take the tour or locate someone that is qualified to determine the value of your large and costly purchase.
If you have a problem getting ALL of your questions answered.. keep looking. pc

Re: Several questions regarding two FTs we are considering

Reply #13 – March 10, 2015, 11:55:15 am

We hear about all of the nightmares but we bought our coach via this forum and have had very few problems and spent very little money over the last five years. We have spent a few coach bucks on upgrades, A/C-Heat Pump, Hose and Cord Reels and a little self inflicted body work but there are older coaches out there that are reliable and in good condition.

Re: Several questions regarding two FTs we are considering

Reply #14 – March 10, 2015, 01:09:51 pm

Thanks guys for the feedback. After receiving a few replies about the bluish smoke at start up probably not being a problem, we took the plunge and put down a deposit yesterday on the U320. We're having it inspected this weekend. The shop where it's located got the generator started and ran it for 10-15 but the mechanic said air is possibly being pulled into the fuel lines or the fuel filter is clogged. I'm pretty sure the owner said the fuel line/lines were replaced about 5-10 years ago so hopefully it is just the filter. If it is the fuel line I may try changing it out myself using the method shown by MisterOsmosis's video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaFPB1O36N4
Gary

Re: Several questions regarding two FTs we are considering VIDEO

Reply #15 – March 10, 2015, 01:29:27 pm

BE CAREFUL....... Video is essentially correct BUT He is showing replacement of the return line, not the fuel line. The fuel line goes in to the FUEL pump, what he is showing is the return line coming from the injectors back to the fuel tank.
Minor criticism but could mislead someone.
BTDT
Gary B

Re: Several questions regarding two FTs we are considering

Reply #16 – March 10, 2015, 03:52:40 pm

Gary, I hope it all goes well. It is a big learning experience looking for a FT. And a big leap of faith too. You are looking at essepntially the same coach as ScubaGuy and Siren have. They may be able to give some pointers. Figure on a complete service, all fluids and filters changed, brakes serviced, new batteries, probably new tires, AH serviced, AC checked, steering box checked. Maybe air bags, maybe fuel lines. All of the normal stuff. Probably doesn't all need to get done right away. When it is all done you will be at a known point and can start having more fun. Some of that expense figures into the offer some is just normal stuff. If the owner did it it is a bonus. 100K for a 97 is about average to just below average.

Ask more questions if we can help.

Roger

Re: Several questions regarding two FTs we are considering

Reply #17 – March 10, 2015, 05:13:54 pm

If the fuel lines were replaced they may have used the same rubber lines that were stock.

New lines are different for the low sulphur fuel.

Worth the money IMO to go completely through the 97 u320 and then get ten or more years of good out of it.

There are backups to every system in that coach for a reason.

If you start replacing things you probably will eliminate the backups.

Propane or 110 volt refer. Backup is the optional chest freezer that runs on 110 or 12 volts.

Microwave convection and a propane stove top.

Heat strips in the ac's versus heat pumps that do not work in winter temps.

Aqua hot is 110v and diesel and heats the motor. Plus a block heater and a ether start system.

It's a motorhome. Not a home motor.

Paint makes it tender around bushes. Even dull gel coat keeps the heat gain down in the coach.

White like every boat in the harbor.

Within limits we drive ours where small branches touch the sides. No damage.

If you make it pretty it's also tender and gets hotter faster. Plus if darkly painted can delaminate sidewalls.

The lists shown here are the things we have learned wear. All fixable. Just a small application of cash....

Re: Several questions regarding two FTs we are considering

Reply #18 – March 10, 2015, 08:39:12 pm

I believe a leap of faith is the key issue. A lack of smarts helps also. We bought ours sight unseen from a place in Arizona figuring somewhat if it will make it to arkansas it's probably alright. We fixed a few minor things and one major thing the first year, the second year we focused on upgrades we would like to have. The major thing we had to address was replacing the aquahot. It cut up quite a bit in the beginning and finally threw a rod. Decided to replace rather than rebuild. We are happy with the year model we have, don't see many we would like to replace it with. Good luck and enjoy the hunt.

Re: Several questions regarding two FTs we are considering

Reply #19 – March 10, 2015, 11:10:58 pm

What Gary & PC said! The U320 has amazing muscle and reported longevity. Our coach just went through a good "baseline" preventive maintenance checkout at MOT and, as we suspected, there're some great bones under the old gelcoat. PC helped me step up to these same questions last year while we were shopping and the leap of faith was easier with a gentle, well-reasoned nudge. Glad I did it!

The wealth of resources on this forum can also help you sleep sounder, I feel. Between the build quality and availability of parts, combined with this group of experienced folks--the cards are in your favor with the purchase of a FT you like and are willing to keep running well. All the best--Paul

Re: Several questions regarding two FTs we are considering

Reply #20 – March 13, 2015, 02:29:29 am

The coach inspection is set for Saturday morning. I'm concerned the generator may not run well or long enough to do a proper inspection. I want to purchase the small inline fuel filter and larger primary fuel filter just in case the mechanic at the shop hadn't gotten around to changing them because he said the engine had acted like it was fuel starved or air was getting into the line.
Are the following the correct numbers for the filters? Powertech 10 kw open box gen set with 4 cyl Kubota
Small inline filter- Wix 33046 , Napa 3046
Larger primary filter- Wix 33390, Napa 3390, Kubota 70000-43801

Gary

Re: Several questions regarding two FTs we are considering

Reply #21 – March 13, 2015, 09:41:34 am

If the fuel lines were replaced 5-10 years ago, that would be very early for fuel line degradation. My new fuel lines are translucent-very different from the original black hoses. Just in case, you might arrange to supply the genny from a bucket if the filters don't do the trick.

Re: Several questions regarding two FTs we are considering

Reply #22 – March 13, 2015, 03:23:36 pm

I had a generator that ran for a few minutes and would quit. Ended up being the fuel pump. Very easy fix.

Re: Several questions regarding two FTs we are considering

Reply #23 – March 13, 2015, 07:08:58 pm

Brett, were all of your fuel lines replaced and did the outfit that replaced them say how long they estimated the new lines would last? Do you know if the hose was made from polyurethane, pa nylon, pvc, Tygon, or something else, and what type of clamps they used.

Re: Several questions regarding two FTs we are considering

Reply #24 – March 13, 2015, 07:13:17 pm

This is the "other Brett".

In the search box at the top right, type in "fuel line replacement".

Posts will cover the "how to" and what line is being uses. Should have very long life.

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