Older "mechanical" Cummins vs. newer electronic ones - why are they preferred?

Topic: Older "mechanical" Cummins vs. newer electronic ones - why are they preferred? (Read 2276 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Older "mechanical" Cummins vs. newer electronic ones - why are they preferred?

Reply #25 – November 10, 2015, 02:57:54 pm

Quote from: stump – November 09, 2015, 10:39:23 pm

There is nothing to worry about with a electronic engine. The problem engines are the EGR equipped engines. And the engines produced after them.The emissions engines EGR systems and smog systems are where all the trouble is. That's where the repair cost goes through the roof . Detroit Diesel pioneered electronic engine controls in the 80's. Cummins, Caterpillar, followed suite in the 90's.
Over the road trucks prior to 2003 were almost bulletproof racking over a million miles before needing a overhaul. Stay clear of the emissions engines and whether you get a mechanical or electronic you will have a very very dependable rig.

I believe what Stump says is dead-on. In another post he quotes from the following paper: Exhaust Gas Recirculation which bears out what he says about the hasty adoption of the EGR and the compensating changes it required in engine design which took a few years to work out (assuming they've been worked out). During those few years the engines had issues due to the EGR - which required greater attention and maintenance to prevent excess wear and possibly engine damage.

RE: engine electronics, I'm drawing from the following: Cummins M Series engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and Cummins Engines - Years of Production and available Horse Power

"The Cummins M Series engine is a straight six diesel engine designed and produced by Cummins. It displaces 10.8 litres (659.1 cu in). Introduced as the M11 in 1994, it was built on the previous L10 engine (same 4.921 inches (125.0 mm) cylinder bore, but a longer 5.787 inches (147.0 mm) piston stroke compared to the L10's 5.354 inches (136.0 mm) stroke)."

"Later M11's received the electronic CELECT and CELECT Plus fuel systems consisting of a gear pump and solenoid controlled injectors. The M11 CELECT Plus became the ISM when Cummins applied its Interact System (hence the "IS" in ISM) to the M11 CELECT Plus in 1998 to further improve the engine. The ISM is available in four different configurations, with slightly different emphasis on maximum power (450 horsepower (336 kW; 456 PS) vs. 500 horsepower (373 kW; 507 PS)) and peak torque."

Barry Brideau pegs the dates as follows:
1994-1995: Cummins M11 CELECT (280-350 hp)
1996-1998: Cummins M11 CELECT Plus (280-450 hp)
1999-2003: Cummins ISM (non-EGR) (280-450 hp)
2004-2010: Cummins ISM (EGR) (280-500 hp)

So there are 2 degrees of "electronic" engine - the CELECT (solenoid-controlled injectors) and the ISM (full electronic feedback and coordination sounds like).

These are production years for Cummins, no doubt - so I'm guessing the production years for Foretravel probably lag by 1-2 years.

And what others have said about the older non-electronic engines being "bulletproof" is more than just an impression. I imagine it would take quite a bit to interrupt a mechanical control and coordination system as opposed to an electronic one - which someone pointed out could go down in a zombie EMF apocalypse...

Re: Older "mechanical" Cummins vs. newer electronic ones - why are they preferred?

Reply #26 – November 10, 2015, 04:07:58 pm

Well sounds like people are happy with both the new and old, so I don't think you should be worrying about this, unless the goal is to marginalize down any engine newer than say y2k?

If these "new" EGR engines were a problem, one wonders how all those 18wheelers ever get to where they are going. OTR trucks put more miles in a month than most RVers will put on in 5 years for comparison. RVers may be better served by finding out which engines can sit for a long periods of time

Older engines are also dirty, noxious and damage the environment. Diesel exhaust is rated as a "definite carcinogen", that's the highest category. In other words exposure to diesel exhaust fumes can, and does, cause cancer in humans (take a look at the cancer rates on truckers if you want occupational proof). Newer engines are better for the environment and people, sure they are not perfect but are a good step forward.

Of course all these pollution controls do come at some very minor inconvenience (and RVers with their low use and duty rate will not likely notice most of that) but they are better than stealing from the future of future generations.

But do what makes you happy

Re: Older "mechanical" Cummins vs. newer electronic ones - why are they preferred?

Reply #27 – November 10, 2015, 09:01:23 pm

We seem to be wandering a ways from the original topic:

Older "mechanical" Cummins vs. newer electronic ones - why are they preferred?

Let's see if we can keep the discussion on this topic.

Thanks.

Re: Older "mechanical" Cummins vs. newer electronic ones - why are they preferred?

Reply #28 – November 10, 2015, 09:47:40 pm

I have a local diesel mechanic who is old school and tells me the horror stories he encounters with the newer engines especially the ones that use DEF. He seems to think the jury is going to be out a number of years on these new emission standards.

I have some farm equipment that uses DEF and it is a pain in the neck along with all points lower. I also have equipment that is older with less bells and whistles that is just as reliable. My concern in the future is, being mechanically minded won't be good enough, you'll need to be a computer technician also.

I have a couple of tractors and several trucks that carry the M 11 and honestly believe they are a fine engine. Can't be beat for toughness, easy maintenance and reliability.

I had a truck wrecked a few years ago that had an M11. My beloved diesel mechanic told me to pull it and keep it in the barn because if I need it they are going to be hard to find someday. I just hope I never need it.

Re: Older "mechanical" Cummins vs. newer electronic ones - why are they preferred?

Reply #29 – November 10, 2015, 10:17:09 pm

I'll just tell you: these newer diesels have given me more trouble in delivery trucks than any of you would imagine. My most recent, a 2013 Cummins, completely blew at 40k miles. Yeh, it's under warranty, but you go without your delivery trucks for a month while it's being replaced and see how you like it.
I fully appreciate progress, but for the right reasons. In my opinion, we have really handicapped ourselves with all the new regulations.

Chris

Re: Older "mechanical" Cummins vs. newer electronic ones - why are they preferred?

Reply #30 – November 11, 2015, 12:54:56 pm

No doubt that new smog regulations are tough on diesels. VW and others had to fake the real emissions and will pay a pretty penny for getting caught. Reminds me of the gas engines of the 1970's with smog pumps, terrible mileage and low power. Over a couple of decades, solutions were found and the problem is now behind the gas engines.

It seems to me that much of the problem lies in the nature of petroleum diesel. We visited a couple of island nations last year and were astonished in the smoke that was emitted from non-turbo diesels vehicles. No wonder they are banned from some city centers. The hope for a clean running, low maintenance diesel would seem to be in biodiesel and investing in the kinds of crops/animal waste/algae that will provide a clean running engine with a sustainable alternative fuel.

I think our government can work closer with the EPA to make new fuels both practical and economical. Charging a $0.54/gal tariff for Brazilian sugar cane ethanol and then subsidizing our farm corn production is not the way to do it. Better uses for corn.

Ethanol also can't deliver the power that biodiesel can. Ethanol has about 76K BTU/gal, gasoline 114K and biodiesel over 130K.

Consider the possible breakthrough from catalyzed coal tar from MIT. Since we have the world's largest supply, this may be a source of low pollution diesel. Clean Diesel from Coal | MIT Technology Review

Just imagine what our cities would look like without the EPA (or what Los Angeles used to look like). Check the latest China smog
photo below.

Pierce

Re: Older "mechanical" Cummins vs. newer electronic ones - why are they preferred?

Reply #31 – November 11, 2015, 01:28:14 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – November 10, 2015, 09:01:23 pm

We seem to be wandering a ways from the original topic:

Older "mechanical" Cummins vs. newer electronic ones - why are they preferred?

Let's see if we can keep the discussion on this topic.

Thanks.

Please, let's keep this thread on topic-- the original topic is one of interest to many. Straying into other issues may be relevant in "Around the campfire", but not on this thread.

Re: Older "mechanical" Cummins vs. newer electronic ones - why are they preferred?

Reply #32 – November 13, 2015, 11:16:53 am

Topic went off into the pros and cons of emissions not the engine. I am not going to ignore to let it devolve any further. One moderator already fixed some posts. I am just going to lock it.

Foretravel Owners' Forum For owners and Fans of Foretravel Motorcoaches September 19, 2025 ...

Re: Older "mechanical" Cummins vs. newer electronic ones - why are they preferred?

Reply #25 – November 10, 2015, 02:57:54 pm

Re: Older "mechanical" Cummins vs. newer electronic ones - why are they preferred?

Reply #26 – November 10, 2015, 04:07:58 pm

Re: Older "mechanical" Cummins vs. newer electronic ones - why are they preferred?

Reply #27 – November 10, 2015, 09:01:23 pm

Re: Older "mechanical" Cummins vs. newer electronic ones - why are they preferred?

Reply #28 – November 10, 2015, 09:47:40 pm

Re: Older "mechanical" Cummins vs. newer electronic ones - why are they preferred?

Reply #29 – November 10, 2015, 10:17:09 pm

Re: Older "mechanical" Cummins vs. newer electronic ones - why are they preferred?

Reply #30 – November 11, 2015, 12:54:56 pm

Re: Older "mechanical" Cummins vs. newer electronic ones - why are they preferred?

Reply #31 – November 11, 2015, 01:28:14 pm

Re: Older "mechanical" Cummins vs. newer electronic ones - why are they preferred?

Reply #32 – November 13, 2015, 11:16:53 am

Affiliate Notice