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Topic: Mpg observation today (Read 816 times) previous topic - next topic

Mpg observation today

Checked our mpg while crossing i80 in Nebraska and at 70 mph for long stretched we were at 9.2 rmpg.

Dry camped and used about a 140  amp hours of battery power overnight as we are running the chest freezer under the coach.

Got back on the exact road, same speed, same conditions, no wind.

8.3 rmpg for 70 miles.  What the heck?

Hmmmm.

After 70 miles the rmpg slowly raised back to the previous 9.2-9.3. 

?

Ah.  The alternator replacing the -140 amp hours at roughly 130 amps. 

Once the batteries reached full charge and with the roof 270 watt solar adding to the batteries at 13.6 volts same as the alternator it shut off. 

That much difference in load to add 3-4 pounds boost to the VPMS display during the 8.3 rmpg.

Most coaches have battery management systems that charge the batteries per the temperature at the cable end.

Our old heart freedom does not have that capability so my guru and I used the lower voltage settings in the link 2000's panel.

Our small solar runs through the refer wire so it's 14.6 panel output drops drops a full volt at the batteries.  13.6

The alternator is also 13.6 as is the hearts charger.

Hesitate to turn it up. 

Wolfe mentioned here several times to run 13.6 volts max to charge the batteries versus higher voltage might shorten the service life of all components.

Probably Unnoticeable if the hydraulic radiator fan is jammed on high also from Foretravels selection of a very low temp thermostat.

Also probably not as noticeable without a resonator changeout.

I think the michelins sxs-3+'s ultra fuel efficient design helps as the coach hardly slows down with no throttle since the tire change.

My opinion is all the other draws would have complicated the defining what's going on enough to make it nearly impossible to notice this.

If it repeats then that may be what's going on.

Been thinking of a three step voltage chargin alternator like the heart has.

The additional charge load cost one gallon of fuel approximately.

Too much idle time behind the wheel and having too many neat measuring tools to use from the VPMS.  Invaluable tool for a nerd gearhead.

Last thing is to replace the rear axles gear oil with full synthetic if not already done.

Front bearing were already changed.

Fun stuff.  Especially if it helps both the power and mpg.

At 65 under good conditions after the battery top off and with sun on the panels to run the normal loads I am getting 10 rmpg.

No wind.  No grades

Anyone else want to help and check their long run rmpg with the batteries charging and after just to see.

I,wonder if JOR could calculate the hp necessary to run the alternator at 130 amp load?

"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: Mpg observation today

Reply #1
Bob said: "Wolfe mentioned here several times to run 13.6 volts max to charge the batteries versus higher voltage might shorten the service life of all components."

Above 13.6 in bulk and absorption mode (120 VAC inverter/charger) or while driving is not critical.  My point is to not float (i.e. 24/7) above the proper voltage for float. Yes, somewhat dependent on battery technology and also ambient temperature.

BTW, a 3 MPH headwind will likely make more difference than alternator loading.
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Mpg observation today

Reply #2
Also, engine mounted alternators are not particularly efficient in making electricity.
1998 U270 34'

Re: Mpg observation today

Reply #3
130 amps at 12 volts is 1560 watts.  Not accounting for efficiency and mechanical losses, that equals a little more than 2 horsepower.
Steve DeLange
2005 U320T 40'
Pearland, Texas

Re: Mpg observation today

Reply #4
Your alternator will not put out 130 amps for very long.  Your engine, transmission and everything else takes time to come up to operating conditions. Our coach generally starts out at lower mpg until it is warmed up and them it comes up to normal.  This is independent of whether we sat in a Walmart overnight or were plugged in. 

My 240 amp Delco brushless alternator uses less than 8 HP at max output.  A brushless alternator uses significantly less power than a Leece Neville.

A three mile per hour headwind at 65 mph will increase fuel use by about 5%.  That is 8 mpg to 7.6 mph.  A five mph head wind will increase fuel use by about 8% or 8 to 7.4.
Roger Engdahl and Susan Green
2001 U320 3610 #5879 (Home2) - 2014 Jeep Cherokee or 2018 F150
Hastings, MN

Re: Mpg observation today

Reply #5
130 amps at 12 volts is 1560 watts.  Not accounting for efficiency and mechanical losses, that equals a little more than 2 horsepower.

All this help is food for discussion . I think the isolator was changed and the battery cabling ok.  Maybe not.

My cummins shop foreman said 7hp for the alternator.  Not sure the amperage.

Only going by what I see.  Unless someone else has a better idea of the rmpg difference?

"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: Mpg observation today

Reply #6
Diode isolaters  eat power too. Replace with a relay type.
1998 U270 34'

Re: Mpg observation today

Reply #7
Your alternator will not put out 130 amps for very long.  Your engine, transmission and everything else takes time to come up to operating conditions. Our coach generally starts out at lower mpg until it is warmed up and them it comes up to normal.  This is independent of whether we sat in a Walmart overnight or were plugged in. 

My 240 amp Delco brushless alternator uses less than 8 HP at max output.  A brushless alternator uses significantly less power than a Leece Neville.

A three mile per hour headwind at 65 mph will increase fuel use by about 5%

Just had the leech Neville rebuilt by a pro.

One diode was bad.  Out of six,  big heat sink area on the alternator.

He ran it at full power on his neat old 1930's Bakelite test rig in front of me and it stabilized at the 13.6 output and ran for 15 minutes with me watching.

I'm thinking it's consuming more than 10 hp at full load. 

After eliminating everything else whatever's left is the problem, however improbable.

That's why I asked for anyone else's input.  Resistance on cable to battery affect this?

My inverter guru when I mentioned a 70 amp per hour charge that the contactors get corroded and pass less current.

Or both.  Entirely possible one or the other.  Only way to know is to redo the terminals and see if any different.  Then redo the inverter for its side.  Then if I want more efficiency to replace the alternator with a more efficient one.

Or its power draw is just enough to bring up the boost in the m11 which may be at a transitional step in its power delivery.

Right on the verge.

Like with the loads reduced sufficiently it leans out the mixture. 

Fiendishly complicated.  But I have a lot of time and it's working out great so far.

My original idea was to fix the lower and parasitic loads and maybe regear the engine to 3:73 or 3:53.  But it really lacks the horsepower to do it. 

Probably why the good mpg.  It's down on power overall.

Turbo or injectors?  Needs to go to the dyno doc or leave it alone and enjoy the mpg.
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: Mpg observation today

Reply #8
Diode isolaters  eat power too. Replace with a relay type.

My guru has been trying to get me to have the relay system installed.  I am thinking about the red tops being charged at the same rate as the three  mk 8g8d's

Am I overthinking this?

Obviously my charge side is consuming a lot of power or totally unforeseen draw is influencing the rmpg.

The timing of things got me to the high draw to replace the used up power overnight.

Oh well a more efficient multi stage alternator would not hurt me much.  And a relay isolator.

Only way to know is to do this in steps and verify each steps results.

"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: Mpg observation today

Reply #9
The alternator is not a big chunk of the power required to just turn the engine and transmission and differential and get to HP at the road/tire interface.  Cummins ran mine (ISM 450) on the dyno and measured 335 HP at the dyno roller drum. It takes more than 100 HP just to get the power to the road at highway speeds. Engine compression, fuels pumps, oil pumps, coolant pumps, turbo, air compressor, alternator, internal engine parts, transmission torque converter, all of the internal transmission parts, drive line, differential all use power to function.

Be happy with the mileage you are getting. Spend your money on fuel, your time on fun.
Roger Engdahl and Susan Green
2001 U320 3610 #5879 (Home2) - 2014 Jeep Cherokee or 2018 F150
Hastings, MN

Re: Mpg observation today

Reply #10
When working on the offshore platforms there were many "out of state workers", (trying to be kind),some would claim they
would get better mileage going 85 as opposed to 65 in their trucks,when challanged their reply was,"I gots the chip".

If you add up the costs of some of these fuel saving systems you would have to drive for the next 10 years to break even.
96 U270 BUILD 4810
85 380SL
Drummonds TN.

Re: Mpg observation today

Reply #11
You can add a "smart" regulator to the alternator.
1998 U270 34'

Re: Mpg observation today

Reply #12
When working on the offshore platforms there were many "out of state workers", (trying to be kind),some would claim they
would get better mileage going 85 as opposed to 65 in their trucks,when challanged their reply was,"I gots the chip".


Yes, what most don't realize about these programmers is that they largely work by fooling the computer into delivering more fuel.  A side result of that is that the little "lie-o-meter" which shows instantaneous fuel mileage is also affected, showing higher mpg than actual. 

Or it could be that all those coal rollin' rednecks have actually defied the laws of physics with their pickup trucks.
"Not so  long ago we were a nation of risk takers, riding five million pounds of  thrust straight into space."  Joe Gresh
Chuck Pearson
1996 U295
2018 Can Am X3 TurboRS

Re: Mpg observation today

Reply #13
One time I sat down with a JC Whitney catalog and added up all the gas saving devices by percentage, I determined if I bought
all of them I would never have to ever buy gas again.
96 U270 BUILD 4810
85 380SL
Drummonds TN.

Re: Mpg observation today

Reply #14
Averaged 8.3 in 3800 miles since the completion of the current mods.

Bumper to bumper in la traffic twice, Sierra Nevada mountains(sequoia), up i40 to flagstaff, up wolf creek pass, across Nebraska towing at 70-75, back across Nebraska with strong quartering winds, back to outside Denver, down 50 to 550 to ouray then to silverton, then to Durango, then to Cortez to Delores then to a beautiful road side camp in an incredible canyon then back to grand junction,co then to i70 west to i24 to the store in the rock north of lake powell, then west through Capital reef national park in heavy cross winds today, then back to grand junction, co via weasel trails in heavy winds, then heavy winds across Utah today to i15 then south towards vegas directly into a 30 knot plus headwind.

Towing a 3,600 pound Solara convertible.  Average tow speed of 70.

To tell you the truth I,would trade several mpg for a stronger motor.  Seems wimpy still.  Does not feel like 1450 torque to me.
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: Mpg observation today

Reply #15
                 What John 44 posted about the JC Whitney thing strikes my funny cord .  Heck , might have to add another fuel tank to capture all the fuel these gadgets save and  produce . Magic  stuff all right , maybe we should buy 2 of each and sell the extra fuel  that is left over . We will all get rich .  :D  :D  :D    The devil made me say this .                    Brad Metzger
Brad Metzger
2010 Phenix 45'

 

Re: Mpg observation today

Reply #16
I appreciate the humor.  No problem.

Past the fun the only way I have found to find out if our coach is to ask questions of other owners who have the same model and post my results.

As a .Foretravel manager I drove every new and used coach and most of the owners older coaches in for service with their permission.

Caught many issues that way.

You do not know if anythings wrong if you have no comparisons.

I was out of the Rv biz by 97 so I never drove multiple new 97 U320 40' M11 coaches.

If I knew for sure what ours was supposed to run like and what power it is supposed to have and its expected  mpg then i would not waste your valuable time here.

My old owners group all worked together to optimize our old coaches.

Lots of things were available to change the chassis and engine and coach systems and working together we were able to mod coaches for those who were interested.

Plus I was able to borrow coaches in for service to take short demo rides with prospective customers as most rode better loaded.

With permission of course.

We were all friends then.  I have passed on sales to prospective owners who I thought would not fit into the local club chapter which had a 100 coaches in it several times in the late 80's.

I had enough business and the club was our major source of trade up and trade in coaches and upsetting them would be counter productive IMO.

The fan control is the only thing I have changed that others have not done.

JOR helped me verify the extra hp draw a while ago as his expertise was to design electrical cooling fan systems for locomotive use and with the data that VPMS generated he also thought that the fans controller was incorrect.

I think cummins turned down the m11's power to pass smog then as their was a industry wide smog violation issue about that time.

The long term fix was to change to a ultra high pressure fuel system and a variable turbo by 2000.  The ISM.

We cross the Rockies regularly so the most power is needed.

It's subtle but I think the reduction of back pressure from the resonator upgrade allows more boost at lower altitudes (30.2) and may be really seating the rings finally.

Sounds crazy BUT the truckers blogs mention not fully breaking in their m11's until 150 to 175k miles.

Motorhomers baby their machines.  Almost every coach I used from my used inventory to go rv'ing needed to have its legs stretched.

Most all ran better afterwards.  Why would I think that anything has changed with our coach? 

Like I,said it's subtle but given a 3,800 mile drive through the west in 19 days I think it's getting better power and mpg.

8.4 total average mpg. Tow at 70.  Downshift and rev the hills.  And it runs better. 

The resonator seems to have lowered the engines temp quite a bit from the back pressure reduction IMO.

Love to talk to a m11 cummins engineer to ask what exactly was altered to pass smog for sure.

Most engine distributors turned up the older diesels power for the Rv manufacturers long ago.

More hp and torque than what the specs said.

The CAT man mentioned some states taxed the trucks based on road hp.  So more power than the spec said saved them money

"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4