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Topic: To retarder or not to retarder (Read 1043 times) previous topic - next topic

To retarder or not to retarder

Newbie here, this is my second post. I have not yet owned a motorcoach. Currently drive a Tundra and pull a Casita TT. Looking to buy an older FGV. I have identified one in IL: Shabbona Creek RV › Current Inventory

36' FGV U 240, CAT 3116, Allison 6, air brakes only.

This coach does not have auxiliary braking, that is, no retarder, no engine brake, no exhaust brake. We like driving in the Rocky Mtns and Appalachian Mtns.  I intend to pull a Jeep Liberty diesel, which weighs about 4300 lbs, more or less, when loaded.

The dealer said I should have no problems in the mtns by just using a lower gear and driving slow, going up or down.

1. Would it be safe to drive on very steep roads with the unit as noted above?
2. If not, which is the best add on (aftermarket) braking unit to have professionally installed? What expense can be expected?
3. I would like to tow my 2005 jeep liberty CRD 4 down, Please recommend a simple tow bar.
4. I am considering this braking system for the jeep liberty: M & G Engineering - Car Braking Systems: Home Page, any thoughts?

Re: To retarder or not to retarder

Reply #1 –
For the vehicle and conditions you describe, I would recommend fitment of a exhaust brake.  Two best known and effective models linked below.  Shop around for the lowest price.  Installation may add considerable expense, depending on the engine compartment layout.

PRXB Exhaust Brakes | Pacbrake

D-Celerator Diesel Exhaust Brake
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"Nature abhors a vacuum"

Re: To retarder or not to retarder

Reply #2 –
Regarding the Allison transmission retarder: I wouldn't want to be without ours. I makes life so much easier--particularly in the mountains. It's true that it's a "nice to have" item, but it's extremely nice to have.

Also, check out the differences between the U240 and the larger U270, U280, U295, U300 and U320 coaches with their air suspension as compared to the Torsilastic suspension on the U225 and U240 models.
David and Carolyn Osborn
1995 U320C SE 40' Build 4726 Feb 1995
FMCA 147762
Motorcade 17186

Re: To retarder or not to retarder

Reply #3 –
I've got to agree with the others, no transmission retarder or jake brake is a big give.  I'd find a coach with one, and one with an air suspension as well. 
"Not so  long ago we were a nation of risk takers, riding five million pounds of  thrust straight into space."  Joe Gresh
Chuck Pearson
1996 U295
2018 Can Am X3 TurboRS

Re: To retarder or not to retarder

Reply #4 –
For that price I would pass,wait and get a coach with retarder and a diesel generator.
96 U270 BUILD 4810
85 380SL
Drummonds TN.

Re: To retarder or not to retarder

Reply #5 –
"Dealer said".....now that's a memorable phrase! I'm sure his response was based on his experience.
Dave W. (AKA Toyman )
'03, 270, 36', Build 6095, Pulling whatever I hook it to.

"Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened."
Dr Seuss

Re: To retarder or not to retarder

Reply #6 –
Sales people say anything for a sales. It's like the scorpion crossing the stream on the frogs back. It's just their nature.

Having owned a Greyhound bus with drum brakes only and driving fire trucks with no aux braking, there is a big advantage to having either a Jake or transmission retarder. For a newbie, this is even more important, especially if contemplating a lot of mountain driving.

Pass on this one and consider a coach with a 8.3 liter Cummins or a 9 liter 6V-92 Detroit with a retarder or Jake brake. These two engines are good for mountain towing. The coach you are considering is way overpriced Shabbona Creek RV › Current Inventory

Perhaps the most important issue here is the sales location. This is prime "salt the road" in winter country and as such, is almost an automatic disqualifier. You WILL need to have any coach inspected before purchase so when you find one, post a request for a member to accompany you to check it out. Paying for an inspection and airline ticket to see a coach in a remote location is super cheap in the long run and will save huge frustrations.

Living in the Sierra Nevada Mountains, we have a RAV4 at just under 3000 lbs behind us most of the time. It does not have any aux braking installed but I keep the Jake switched on all the time and never worry about heating the brakes at any time. Just check air pressure at the top, drop a gear or two descending and relax. It's not the interstates that are steep but the smaller two lane roads that can make you sweat.

Pierce




Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: To retarder or not to retarder

Reply #7 –
+1 on Pierce's great advise
Tim Fiedler    2025 LTV Unity MBL on Order
2000 Chevy Tracker 2 Door Convertible 4WD Now lifted 4.5"
1985 Citroen 2CV6 Charleston
Murphy Rebel on wheels with 175HP Titan
Cessna P337
1980 48' Westport MY (!/4 Share)

Re: To retarder or not to retarder

Reply #8 –
Easy decision. If you buy it or one like it, fit a PacBrake PRXB exhaust brake.

From first hand information, it WORKS WELL in the mountains.

Yes, price is high-- but asking may not be indicative of selling price.

And, since it is up in the rust belt, check bulkheads carefully.

Do not be scared of the 250 HP Cat-- power to weight ratio is very similar (lighter coach, better aerodynamics) to the larger/heavier coaches and MPG is better.
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: To retarder or not to retarder

Reply #9 –
While I personally liked driving the U240's I sold new at Foretravel the unavailability of the main suspension components would give me pause.  Long term engine reliabilty issues have also turned up for a percentage or owners.

Limited storage, no diesel gen, no retardation or exhaust brake adds to the reasons to maybe keep looking.

I would doubt you could find a single owner of the retarded, diesel gen, large storage coaches that have traded theirs for the u225/u240.

Remember I liked driving them please.  And sold both new personally. 

Just saying
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: To retarder or not to retarder

Reply #10 –
Thanks for the advice. I understand and am concerned about the "rust belt bulkhead" issue. I will try to find a unit with a diesel gen, retarder or pacbrake, and so I will continue to look.

Have not even thought about CaflashBob's comment "unavailability of the main suspension components would give me pause". I assume this means the components for the Torsilastic® Suspension. I was thinking I would rather have this Torsilastic rather than air suspension only because it is simpler and more durable. We have test driven a FGV with the Torsilastic and th ride is OK by me. But perhaps not if parts availability is an issue.

I am trying to find a late 92, 93, 94 FGV with a length of no more than 36'. I do not want a 40' long coach. I am moving up from a 17' TT; a 36' gives us MUCH more room.

I am seeing a number of LP gens, but only one diesel gen, and the coach with this diesel gen is much too degraded.

Re: To retarder or not to retarder

Reply #11 –
What everybody said. Having one that we bought a few years ago, the price seems steep, however it's a good looking coach.
The thing that bothers me about dealer ads, mostly, is they list what are stock items, not anything that has been done since.
We paid 32k with fresh paint/stripes, tires, fridge, furnaces, air conditioners....on and on. What sold me, big time, is I found service records back to 1996, when it had 11k.  I've not found any prices for the pac brake & shift pad on ours, the switch for the PB is on the bootom of the pad. Brett may remember.
1993 U-240 "La Villa Grande"..CAT 3116 w/ Pacbrake PRXB...Allison 3060 6-speed..
Previous: 1983 Airstream 310 turbo diesel, 1979 Airstream 280 turbo diesel
                                      Build # 4297
                                      PNW natives
                      Home base:  'Cactus Hug' (Ajo, Arizona)
                        DW Judy & Chet the wonder dog
                        Full-Timers 'Sailing the asphalt sea'

Re: To retarder or not to retarder

Reply #12 –
Would beg to differ on the air suspension comment, if your a half xxx mechanic you can change all your air bags and components,
not sure if you could change the $1000 suspension component.
96 U270 BUILD 4810
85 380SL
Drummonds TN.

Re: To retarder or not to retarder

Reply #13 –
Brett's post on the power to weight and lower drag is good. They can average about 11 mpg. Allison 3060 is a six speed and works well with well spaced ratios with the smaller engine. The 3116 CAT is a good engine and with proper maintenance, it should last the life of the coach. It is a parent bore engine in contrast to the Cummins and Detroits with removable liners so a specialist is needed to do a quality liner installation. This video shows why you need a CAT specialist with a good track record to do the work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUVjJibTLLQ The 3116 is a 6.6 liter engine developing it's power at 2800 rpm vs 2100 and 2200 for the Detroit and Cummins respectively. Lower rpm means a fatter torque curve, a good thing while towing. Engine braking is better as the engine displacement increases but a lighter coach offsets this somewhat.

The suspension is another thing. The airbag suspension on U280/U300s is great and with the availability of the Continental airbags for well under $100 each, changing all of them won't break the bank and can be done in less than a day for all eight if you get ducks in a row ahead of time.

The 225/240s are also 96" wide as I remember so won't have as much interior room as the 102" U280/300 models.

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: To retarder or not to retarder

Reply #14 –
Quote from: mike leary –
What everybody said. Having one that we bought a few years ago, the price seems steep, however it's a good looking coach.
The thing that bothers me about dealer ads, mostly, is they list what are stock items, not anything that has been done since.
We paid 32k with fresh paint/stripes, tires, fridge, furnaces, air conditioners....on and on. What sold me, big time, is I found service records back to 1996, when it had 11k.  I've not found any prices for the pac brake & shift pad on ours, the switch for the PB is on the bootom of the pad. Brett may remember.

Mike,

The location of the Allison shift pad and exhaust brake switch are unique to your coach.  I built the walnut box-- the angle made it easier to use without taking your eyes off the road than the original vertical installation.
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: To retarder or not to retarder

Reply #15 –
Quote from: wolfe10 –
The location of the Allison shift pad and exhaust brake switch are unique to your coach.  I built the walnut box-- the angle made it easier to use without taking your eyes off the road than the original vertical installation.
Should have known you did it, only a driver can design some thing like that pad. In traffic and downgrades, my left hand fits perfect to the retard switch, and I'm getting so used to it that my hand knows where to go, without even looking!  Well done, my friend.  b^.^d
1993 U-240 "La Villa Grande"..CAT 3116 w/ Pacbrake PRXB...Allison 3060 6-speed..
Previous: 1983 Airstream 310 turbo diesel, 1979 Airstream 280 turbo diesel
                                      Build # 4297
                                      PNW natives
                      Home base:  'Cactus Hug' (Ajo, Arizona)
                        DW Judy & Chet the wonder dog
                        Full-Timers 'Sailing the asphalt sea'
 

Re: To retarder or not to retarder

Reply #16 –
Quote from: John44 –
For that price I would pass,wait and get a coach with retarder and a diesel generator.
I'm a newbie (since May 16)...retarder saved my retarded bacon!!!!....yeppers....thank goodness the coach knew what to do...cause I sure didn't!  All kidding aside I would agree without a doubt the retarder is a must have.
Dave
2002 295 36'
Build 6006
Motorcade Member 17931
Toad 2003 Jeep Wrangler
2008 BMW R1200 GSA