B20 in a mid-90's engine

Topic: B20 in a mid-90's engine (Read 1275 times) previous topic - next topic - Topic derived from Motor losing power

B20 in a mid-90's engine

April 10, 2017, 01:51:01 pm

What will be symptoms if I use B20 in my 1996 U320 (M11 built in Nov 1995)?
Can my M11 be modified to use B20?
The difficulty here is that B5 is getting hard to find and I have been forced to fill with B20 or not drive.
I typically drive the I5 from Canada to LA.

Re: B20 in a mid-90's engine (split from Re: Motor losing power)

Reply #1 – April 10, 2017, 03:45:18 pm

Google B20 diesel. You can run it in any diesel engine. You might initially have a fuel filter issue but that's about it. Early diesels say 93 back might experience some seal issues seeping etc ,But later engines should be fine. Read the facts and not the hearsay. I have been using it in my semi truck 1995 on and off since it became available. I have not had any issues other than an occasional fuel filter become clogged sooner than expected.About all the fuel that Loves sells is B20. And just because it says B20 does not mean it is 20% bio. It can contain up to 20%. I would expect most blends are quite a bit lower.

Re: B20 in a mid-90's engine (split from Re: Motor losing power)

Reply #2 – April 10, 2017, 04:15:47 pm

The cummins site said no b20 in m11's. After that I stopped reading.

Central Valley Ca. Smog laws require b20 I understand, LA no. My OC chevron Diesel has no bio Diesel at all.

Adding optilube xpd fuel addictive to lube the injectors and raise the cetane rating makes a noticeable idle smoothness improvement.

Probably would help the b20 issue.

Lucas also worked well. Optimate was rated much higher so I switched products.

Less power from b20 fuel is my understanding

Gen runs smoother.

Re: B20 in a mid-90's engine (split from Re: Motor losing power)

Reply #3 – April 10, 2017, 05:48:57 pm

Give Cummins a call and ask about biodiesel in your engine. It's a combination of the engine and fuel rail system, and sometimes they change their position over time.

Last documentation I had from Cummins is Service Bulletin Number Date
3379001-13 31-OCT-2007 and on page 17 states:

Biodiesel fuel can be blended with an acceptable diesel fuel up to 5 percent volume- concentration (B5) for all Cummins® engines.

Biodiesel fuel can be blended with an acceptable diesel fuel up to a 20 percent volume concentration (B20) for the following Cummins® engines:
ISB CM850, ISB CM2150*, ISBe Euro 3, QSB4.5 Tier 3, and QSB6.7 Tier 3. ISC/ISL CM850, ISC/ISL CM2150*, ISCe/ISLe Euro 3, and QSC/QSL Tier 3.
ISM CM870 and CM570, ISM CM875, ISM CM876, QSM11 Tier 3, QSM11 Marine, and QSM11 G-Drive.
ISX CM870, ISX CM871, QSX15 Tier 3, and QSX15 G-Drive.
*For ISB CM2150 and ISC/ISL CM2150 products, Cummins Inc. requires fuel dilution monitoring. See below for details.

Chris

Re: B20 in a mid-90's engine (split from Re: Motor losing power)

Reply #4 – April 10, 2017, 08:24:25 pm

No m11 celect plus on the 20% list

Re: B20 in a mid-90's engine (split from Re: Motor losing power)

Reply #5 – April 10, 2017, 10:29:26 pm

The bulletin I shared was from 2007. In the last couple years several forum members have called Cummins asking about B20 and have been given updated information different than what is in that old service bulletin.

I don't want to go on record as being the authority on Cummins engines that can us B20, but a call to Cummins should help clear up the question for individuals.

Also, the Racor 790R30 fuel water separator that some folks have been installing is compatible with biofuel up to B20. It's listed on the product page as one of the "features and benefits".

Chris

Re: B20 in a mid-90's engine (split from Re: Motor losing power)

Reply #6 – April 10, 2017, 10:54:40 pm

Cummins says pre 02 motors have components not designed for the increased solvent nature of b20

Re: B20 in a mid-90's engine (split from Re: Motor losing power)

Reply #7 – April 10, 2017, 11:00:06 pm

So where are we on solving the original problem,sounds like we need to start another post about biodiesel.There are plenty of
additives out there to add to biodiesel,even Fleetguard has some.

Michael,have you changed your filters yet?

Re: B20 in a mid-90's engine (split from Re: Motor losing power)

Reply #8 – April 11, 2017, 04:07:48 pm

Biodiesel is all I can generally find to buy and so I use it without concern. I know my 1995 system isn't certified to handle it but I've had no problems so far and so I will address the problems if/when they occur. I can find no reason to worry about it.

Re: B20 in a mid-90's engine (split from Re: Motor losing power)

Reply #9 – April 11, 2017, 06:03:04 pm

We try to fill up at Costco whenever possible. Sent them a question concerning % of biodiesel.

Dear Bob,
Thank you for your inquiry about Kirkland Signature Diesel.

Kirkland Signature Diesel only contains biodiesel where required by law. However, up to 5% biodiesel may be found in any US diesel fuel without it being marked on the retail dispenser. This rule allows biodiesel and regular petroleum diesel to be transported in the same pipelines and tankers.

Sincerely,
Sammie Loudenback

Costco Wholesale | 999 Lake Drive | Issaquah, WA | 98027

Welcome to Costco Wholesale : Kirkland Signature Gasoline

Re: B20 in a mid-90's engine (split from Re: Motor losing power)

Reply #10 – April 11, 2017, 06:59:23 pm

If you go the Flying J's/ Pilot's web site or App they will list what percentage "is intended" at each station.
It seems to vary by station. Other fuel sources sometimes give similar information.

Re: B20 in a mid-90's engine (split from Re: Motor losing power)

Reply #11 – April 11, 2017, 10:17:34 pm

Please see...
Biodiesel-Ready Cummins Engines - Cummins Engines

Bob, the increased solvent nature of B20 fuels tends to clean the fuel tank and because of this Cummins recommends changing fuel filters twice at half the normal interval and then back to normal.

I see B20 on occasion but not more often than not. So maybe I am averaging 10-12%?

Re: B20 in a mid-90's engine (split from Re: Motor losing power)

Reply #12 – April 11, 2017, 10:39:19 pm

The high pressure common rail engines internal components were designed for the corrosive nature of the
ULSD.

After replacing all my non ULSD rated fuel lines and probably the fuel filter I feel that I should try to avoid the b20 that cummins says my engine is not designed for.

I feel my m11 is less torquey than it could be. If I dyno it again and it's still low I may invest in a set of injectors.

Need to research this more. My old Foretravel salesman said our 97 u320 "did not know what a hill was" to quote him. This one does

While ours runs well I never drove them new so a comparison is impossible.

Everything else cost power and mpg so far (air filter, fuel filter, cam sensor, hydraulic fan controller, needing the rack run, set the valves, etc) why not that the ULSD and b20 has reduced the power already.

Lower power from b20'also I understand.

Need to research this. Someone knows.....

Maybe the same rubber parts in the fuel system as the fuel lines.

Otherwise why would cummins specifically not list the m11 on the b20 approved list..

Re: B20 in a mid-90's engine (split from Re: Motor losing power)

Reply #13 – April 11, 2017, 11:10:42 pm

I have been producing my own biodiesel for the last seven years and use it in my farm tractors, Ford Powerstroke, and Bobcat. It is a great solvent and required a few filter changed when I switched. I do add some lubrication additives for piece of mind. All operations have been normal since then. Reduced smoke, and I get hungry when I smell McDonald's fries or Chinese food from the exhaust! We have had B20 available in Colorado for years without many complaints. The local co-op has been selling pure vegetable diesel for almost 20 years for general use. Most restrictions are related to no EPA testing on early engines by the manufacturers. If you have any questions call your local diesel injector overhaul company and they may give you their opinions.

Re: B20 in a mid-90's engine (split from Re: Motor losing power)

Reply #14 – April 11, 2017, 11:57:26 pm

It's all well and good weather or not my engine is approved for this or that. But as we run all over the country we only have 2 choices, buy what fuel we can get( trying to avoid B20) or quit buying fuel that not an option. JMHO one of those things you can't worry too much about.

Re: B20 in a mid-90's engine (split from Re: Motor losing power)

Reply #15 – April 12, 2017, 05:50:17 am

In Virginia and much of the east coast B20 seems to be the rule not the exception. That said in my personal fuel tank I have straight diesel and regular gas no ethanol.

Re: B20 in a mid-90's engine (split from Re: Motor losing power)

Reply #16 – April 12, 2017, 06:41:42 am

I guess we will get to be testers then on the b20. old trucks with our m11's are mostly off the road just from wearout.

Noticeable engine smoothness at idle to run fuel additive versus not.

Added cetane rating seems to be the reason and the injectors added lubrication,

If none of you are reporting problems that's good info.

Unfortunately any possible power loss from injector wear is probably a slow change and unless dynoed or having the injectors replaced or tested is hard to notice on our coaches.

What was the rationale behind the b20? Smog or politics?

Slightly Less power:mpg from the fuel I understand?

Re: B20 in a mid-90's engine (split from Re: Motor losing power)

Reply #17 – April 12, 2017, 07:04:12 am

I run pretty much whatever place has the lowest price in my 95 Peterbilt. I have a series 60 Detroit in it. I run the same lowest cost fuel in the RV. It has a 6V92 Detroit. I drive my semi about 2400 miles a week. We have put about 15000 on the RV in the last 2.5 years.I drive more miles in a year than many do in 10.
The only thing I notice with bio blend is a mpg and power loss in real cold weather. My truck doesn't perform as well as when it's warm outside. Actually I don't perform as well either when I'm cold, but that's another story. I have 1 fuel stop that has a sign saying 100% diesel. No bio. About all others pump decals say May contain up to 20% bio diesel. Occasionally I will have a fuel filter seem to need replacement sooner than expected but I carry plenty of spares and with the Davco 382 it's a 2 or 3 minute change. If I start having issues with the RV fuel system I'll just have to make whatever changes are needed to make it work. It's that simple. The fuel we get is not going to change it will only get more and more blended. But so far I have had no issues other than what I mentioned above.

Re: B20 in a mid-90's engine (split from Re: Motor losing power)

Reply #18 – April 12, 2017, 10:41:41 am

About a 2 years ago I did have to replace a CAPS injector pump that was leaking at the distributor head ( about 6 CBs ouch). Fuel related or old age who knows. Like others said got to do what's necessary to keep them running fuel is only going to get worse.

Re: B20 in a mid-90's engine (split from Re: Motor losing power)

Reply #19 – April 12, 2017, 12:14:50 pm

In the California, the valley has terrible smog so bio-diesel is the fuel we use. As far as drawbacks, it may react with older fuel hoses and does not do paint any good. Even one percent adds lubricity to the fuel so the engine and pump should last longer. We use it all the time without any problems.

As far as power loss goes, the difference in petro diesel and 100 percent bio-diesel is only about 8 to 9K BTUs per gallon so B20 will only be down 2K at most or from about 130K BTUs to 128K. Not enough to make any difference in power.

It's here to stay and I'm glad. The higher the content, the better. Read a good article at: Valley Oil

Pierce

Re: B20 in a mid-90's engine (split from Re: Motor losing power)

Reply #20 – April 12, 2017, 12:20:21 pm

Good read. Now to find out if I have natural or butyl rubber in our late 96 production m11 engines fuel system

Re: B20 in a mid-90's engine (split from Re: Motor losing power)

Reply #21 – April 12, 2017, 12:35:06 pm

Hoses should be made of Nitrile (Buna-N), the problem may be what grade or spec of Nitrile or any elastomer. Fuel hoses are something to skimp on quality. Natural rubber is not fuel or solvent resistant, and Butyl is not either but is very resistant to ozone.
Below is a good chart to give you an idea of different elastomers and their chemical compatibility.

Rubber Chemical Resistance Chart, Rubber Compatibility Chart - Mykin Inc

John
A note about grades of Nitrile....Std Nitrile will not seal transformer oil..It takes a high grade nitrile to work.

Re: B20 in a mid-90's engine (split from Re: Motor losing power)

Reply #22 – April 12, 2017, 05:45:33 pm

Quote from: John and Stacey – April 12, 2017, 12:35:06 pm

Hoses should be made of Nitrile (Buna-N), the problem may be what grade or spec of Nitrile or any elastomer. Fuel hoses are not something to skimp on quality. Natural rubber is not fuel or solvent resistant, and Butyl is not either but is very resistant to ozone.
Below is a good chart to give you an idea of different elastomers and their chemical compatibility.

Rubber Chemical Resistance Chart, Rubber Compatibility Chart - Mykin Inc

John
A note about grades of Nitrile....Std Nitrile will not seal transformer oil..It takes a high grade nitrile to work.

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