Wheels and torque and jacks

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Wheels and torque and jacks

May 30, 2018, 10:16:05 pm

So when I get in the coach, there is a warning sign that says to check torque prior to moving or driving the coach. I have read many of the older posts about this and plan on getting a torque wrench 3/4" drive that can torque to 600 ft/lbs. Also getting a 20 ton bottle jack and some jack stands. I plan on some point on removing the front wheels to check the brakes (passenger side brake half the material that the drivers side has) and would like to be able to replace the shocks at some point (original I think). What stands do you recommend? I might be using a air wrench to remove the nuts, and plan on putting a 5 gal air tank in with the Viair compressor the PO left me.
Any other things I should know about? I understand that you should not lubricate the lugs or bolts.
BTW anyone know how heavy one of these front wheels are ? (tire and wheel)?
How many of you actually check the torque?
How many of you have the ability to remove the wheel?

Thanks,
Bob

Re: Wheels and torque and jacks

Reply #1 – May 30, 2018, 10:29:53 pm

When the wheels come off and then back on - the tire shop will torque them. If it is done by hand you should go back within a hundred miles or so and have them retorqued. It should be free. Shops with better equipment torque them the first time with a hydraulic torque machine. They shouldn't have to be retorqued.

I don't think I could get those nuts off even with my bigger 1/2 impact wrench. The tools required for that job are my CoachNet card and a phone.

Re: Wheels and torque and jacks

Reply #2 – May 30, 2018, 10:54:00 pm

Bob , I took the front right wheel off, first I aired the bags all the way up which gave me about 12-1/2 inches between lower and upper frame. I then cut 6 X 6 Square post into 12" lengths which I put between the frame members and lowered the air bags until the weight was on 6" X 6" then I took a 5' breaker bar and socket and broke all the lug nuts loose on wheel, after that I raised the tire and wheel with my 20 ton bottle jack setting under the flat of front axle. After tire was clear I put 4- 6" X 6" X 18" laid horizontally 2 bottom 2 top and some additional 2 x 12 on top to rest the axle on. I like to maintain pressure on jack but weight of coach is on cribbing. Then I took off front wheel and tire -- this was all done to replace the inside seal that was seep leaking oil when we purchased the coach. Once new seal was in I replaces the tire and wheel. I don't have a 450 lb torque wrench but I do have a torque multiplier that will increase torque about 4 times. I first checked the multiplier by torquing bolts to 50 ft lb which should = 200 ft lb
when I turned my torque wrench up to 200 and checked the nuts it read or clicked at 200 ft lb so I then torqued the nuts at 115 which should give me 460 ft lb of torque. this allows for some loss in using multiplier, torque is suppose to be at 450. Granted the 600 ft lb torque wrench is better but I went with what I had. Also specs call for retorquing after driving 100 miles
sorry for long winded
Chris
PS this was all done inside my shop on flat surface--on side of road with flat or blowout for me it is AAA time
that is why I bought a tire monitoring system
Did not weigh tire it is heavy--only cleared enough so I didn't have to lift it to get it back on

Re: Wheels and torque and jacks

Reply #3 – May 30, 2018, 11:17:57 pm

Actually modern battery impact wrenches can do it. But would still go back with a manual torque wrench to check it.Shop DEWALT XR 20-volt Max 1/2-in Drive Cordless Impact Wrench (Battery Not...

Re: Wheels and torque and jacks

Reply #4 – May 31, 2018, 05:32:51 am

When I bought the coach I knew I would need to upgrade my tools to handle heavy duty service. I didn't need to invest in the same quality tools as a pro just good enough to handle my needs.
I found about everything I needed at Harbor Freight. I already had a large air compressor and air tools for automotive work.
I bought a 3/4 drive air impact to handle wheel removal, Impact sockets in SAE and Metric plus the set with the larger socket sizes all in short and extended lengths, a 12" 3/4 drive extension to reach the lug nuts ( you can use a jack stand to hold the extension and impact wrench when you remove or tighten the lugs) 20 ton hydr/air jack ( like the idea of having a air control hose controller so I can be out from under the coach when I raise or lower it.) , Heavy duty jack stands, for wheel torgue I use a 1/2" drive analog torgue wrench with a 2' cheater bar attached ( I can't remember off hand the calculations with the 2' bar but seem to remember a 100# torgue reading resulted in 400# torgue at the stud, torgue wrench at 2' + 2' cheater = 4'). I DO lightly lube the studs and torgue accordingly at 350# wet.
If dry torgued you run a risk of the nuts seizing on the studs ,then breaking off when its time to remove the wheel. It only takes 1 nut out of all the nuts on the 2 wheels (rear) to ruin your day if it breaks or strips.
Remember, on some coaches they have hub centered wheels on back and some have Budd centered studs. Also, some coaches have LEFT threaded studs and nuts on the left side of the coach and right threaded on the right side. When I bought tires I went to a "truck Tire" dealer and witnessed them shear off the lugs and round them trying to take the left threaded nuts off going right with a huge 1"drive air wrench. They had to cut the aluminum wheel off.
Have a separate battery charger and a couple trickle chargers. A decent multi meter, and tire gauge should also be in the tool box.
Did I mention a couple GOOD flashlights.
A bottle of your favorite mood adjuster is also sometimes a good addition.

Re: Wheels and torque and jacks

Reply #5 – May 31, 2018, 10:40:13 am

As Lon posted above, we have much the same with both 1 inch and 1/2 inch impacts, a short large diameter air hose from the supply tank to the big impact plus a couple of HF air jacks. The air jacks take most of the work out of a tire change. No seize (No Seize | Pro Chem, Inc.) is always used with the torque reduced to about 335 lbs. I use a 5 foot pipe and a bathroom scale to torque them. If you jack the coach until the wheel just clears the ground, it's easy to R&R with minimum effort.

AAA changed a flat at a memorial service and used a small Snap-On battery impact gun. Popped the lug nuts off without any work. A fresh battery installed them. Expensive gun but less expensive alternatives available now. Buy the socket shown in the photos but check your size first. It flips for the inside rear duals. There is also a compressor and the red cap on the 1 inch impact air fitting are in the background.

Never let a shop torque your wheels with an air gun. Always too tight!

Pierce

Re: Wheels and torque and jacks

Reply #6 – May 31, 2018, 12:37:48 pm

As to weight a tire weighs about 115lbs and a wheel 80 lbs. Use a long crow bar under the wheel to move it away from and up to the lugs. Keep the tire vertical as once it starts to tip it will go. Tighten the lug nuts diagonally sequentially so they seat correctly and don't distort the wheel.

If you have never done this before look on YouTube as there will be a lot of videos on this.

Keith

Re: Wheels and torque and jacks

Reply #7 – May 31, 2018, 02:04:22 pm

Quote from: bobfnbw – May 30, 2018, 10:16:05 pm

1. I plan on some point on removing the front wheels to check the brakes (passenger side brake half the material that the drivers side has)
2. I understand that you should not lubricate the lugs or bolts.
3. BTW anyone know how heavy one of these front wheels are ? (tire and wheel)?
4. How many of you actually check the torque?
5. How many of you have the ability to remove the wheel?

Bob,
1. If this is true you need to move this to the top of your to do list before more damage is done.
1a. Read over this info before you ever turn a wrench http://www.meritorwabco.com/MeritorWABCO_document/mm4m.pdf
2. If you do lube you need to use less torque than dry
3.~ #200 each
3a. Get a tire dolly and a piece of ply wood if you don't have a shop floor.
4. I do
5. I do

Pamela & Mike

Re: Wheels and torque and jacks

Reply #8 – May 31, 2018, 02:44:34 pm

Quote

Never let a shop torque your wheels with an air gun. Always too tight!

Hopefully, times have changed but a few years ago Herman Power in Nacogdoches just used a big impact gun. I asked the guy what he was torqueing them at and he replied that he just turns the gun all the way up.

Gotta hand it to you guys. I wouldn't mess with those tires.
jor

Re: Wheels and torque and jacks

Reply #9 – May 31, 2018, 04:07:39 pm

Anybody seen a tire shop using torque sticks?
These are supposed to limit the torque to the rating of the extension so as not to over-torque the bolt.

Re: Wheels and torque and jacks

Reply #10 – May 31, 2018, 05:13:11 pm

I use a 2 wheeler dolly to handle the tire/wheels. Slips under the tire, then I can jiggle it around and work the tire/wheel off the studs, tilt it back and cart the tire/wheel away. I don't even attempt to try and muscle the tire/wheel assembly, those days have passed.

Re: Wheels and torque and jacks

Reply #11 – May 31, 2018, 06:10:14 pm

Bob,

I would not spend the $$$ for a 3/4" torque wrench unless you have a lot of other uses for it.

With this extension (thick wall pipe) a 1/2"/200 lb-ft torque wrench is capable of acceptable accuracy up to 800+ lb-ft:

Torque Wrench extensions

As an example, with the extension length I use (piece of 5' thick wall pipe that my 1/2" breaker bar will fit into), 106 lb-ft on the torque wrench gives 450 lb-ft of torque. No "heavy lifting" required.

And, it functions well as a long breaker bar for removing the lug nuts. No stand or extension is needed for the fronts. I stick my 1/2" drive breaker bar with correct socket for the nuts in one end and have welded on a 1/2" drive accurately (so you can plug into the formula)drilled in and welded at the other end. Has worked well for the last 18 years. Ya, I bent one thin wall pipe couple of years ago breaking loose some 1,000 lb-ft suspension bolts. but the thick wall pipe is bomb-proof.

Re: Wheels and torque and jacks

Reply #12 – June 01, 2018, 12:09:37 am

RE: no lube lug nuts... While if affects torq wrench reading, it also can allow nuts to corrode on to bolts. We spray lug bolts with CorrosionX, then wipe it off.
RE: torq-sticks... They ONLY work with impact wrenches that have short turns over and over. They only twist a little to negate the impact wrench short turn. Continuous rotation will keep torq-stick from working.

Re: Wheels and torque and jacks

Reply #13 – June 01, 2018, 05:00:41 am

Thanks for all your wisdom and experience !
Brett the extension bar sounds good. I have a 3/4" drive set that I can use for that.
Don't want to use a air impact gun to put them on only to take off once cracked. I will probably go with the Bosch 18v IWMH182, I already have a extensive collection of Bosch 18v tools. Great stuff.

Quote

1a. Read over this info before you ever turn a wrench http://www.meritorwabco.com/MeritorWABCO_document/mm4m.pdf

Pam and Mike, thanks for that link! Very complicated brake system, think I will let a expert look at it.
Since the coach has a Air leak in the air system that only affects the passenger front side, and the Air brakes on the passenger front side is having some sort of issue, I suspect that the two might be related. I will try to find the leak in the next few days as I have 6 days off starting today.
Bob

Re: Wheels and torque and jacks

Reply #14 – June 01, 2018, 07:13:07 am

Bob,

If you are a tinkering kind of person once you take the wheels off and give the brake system a good look over you will see that it is the same as most any car disc brake system only bigger. The air chambers that actuate the brakes and slack adjusters are the big difference and can seem big and intimidating but with a little studying of the Meritor book you should be able to do a repair. I hate to say it but there are a lot of so called experts out there that have never seen a brake system like we have so choose wisely as others have been bit with having a mechanic learn as they go.

By what you have indicated you have one side that the pads are worn more than the other side. This is what comes to mind that comes to the top of the list of possible problems.
The adjuster on the thin side has too much grease or wrong grease and it is causing the calipers not to release.
The guide pins on the thin side is galled and causing the caliper to not release.
Look at the slack adjuster to see if it is working properly and adjusted to spec.
The side that seems to have a full pad may not be applying and the thin side is doing all the breaking. This could be caused by any of the above along with a bad diaphragm in the air brake can.

I have faith that if you can pull the wheels (the hardest part of the brake work) and have studied the the 4M book you can do it as other here do.

Pamela & Mike

Re: Wheels and torque and jacks

Reply #15 – June 01, 2018, 11:19:57 am

Correct me if I'm wrong but when you get a set of brake shoes, isn't one of them thinner than the other?

Re: Wheels and torque and jacks

Reply #16 – June 01, 2018, 12:30:06 pm

Quote from: rbark – June 01, 2018, 11:19:57 am

Correct me if I'm wrong but when you get a set of brake shoes, isn't one of them thinner than the other?

In the old days with drum brakes, some "shoes" were thiner than it's partner. With disc brakes, the "shoes" are "pads" and both pads are normally the same thickness. Mike has a good suspects list in the post above. Driving in winter on treated roads not only lets rust/corrosion get it's foot in the door but can compromise the braking system.

Pierce

Re: Wheels and torque and jacks

Reply #17 – June 01, 2018, 03:10:45 pm

Bob:
Many opinions expressed here, some of which I do not agree with.

Bob said: "I understand that you should not lubricate the lugs or bolts"
Lubricate threads but not the nut/wheel contact area (tapered on bud wheels, flat on hub centre wheels). The wheels on motorhomes are seldom removed, so dry studs/nuts can become seized with rust, while that will never happen with anti seize grease. Also required torque is 100 ft lb lower with lubricated threads.

Bob said: "anyone know how heavy one of these front wheels are? Michelin charts show tire is 115 lb, while Alcoa chart shows rim is 40 or 50 lb, so total is circa 160 lb.

Bob asked: "How many of you actually check the torque"
I do because I checked how tight the nuts were on one front tire. I pencil marked between the nut and the wheel, loosened nut and torqued to 400 ftlb (lubricated threads). Every nut was too tight. If a tire shop is replacing a tire, I insist that they turn down their air impact and just snug the nuts, then I torque them. After driving 50 miles, I torque them again, and some tighten a little. Tire shops routinely over tighten because if a tire falls off in 50 miles, they get sued, if the threads are damaged, how many years before you know, if ever.

Bob asked: How many of you have the ability to remove the wheel?
Not too many of us, but I do and I can remove a tire, patch
a hole, and reinstall it. I carry a mounted spare so that I wont be stuck in Mexico due to a blow out.

My equipment: a Proto, 500 ftlb torque wrench, a trucker breaker socket and bar, two 8 ton and one 16 ton bottle jacks, a flat crow bar, a modified jack stand, ply bars.

it is very hard work to change a flat tire on a motorhome, and while I do have AAA RV service, I would rather fix a flat myself in an hour then wait hours for a service truck to arrive.

Re: Wheels and torque and jacks

Reply #18 – June 01, 2018, 04:06:22 pm

Richard is correct for our motorhome. . . On each wheel, the pair of brake pad's have different thickness from each other. So, what looks worn is NOT worn.

Re: Wheels and torque and jacks

Reply #19 – June 01, 2018, 04:58:30 pm

The outer is slightly thinner than the inner and they are also shaped differently. You need to make sure to where they are installed as they are marked "inner" & "outer" on the backing plates. We are on the road so no show and tell pics.

Mike

Re: Wheels and torque and jacks

Reply #20 – June 01, 2018, 08:01:13 pm

During the inspection with Brett, he noticed that the front passenger brake pads where more worn than the drivers side. At that time I was not under the coach with him so was not able to eyeball it myself. I assume (and most of you may agree) that when Brett says it's worn more than the other side, that he is most likely correct....

Wyatt, I agree with you that I must have the ability to fix something that is broke if possible. I plan to be able to do that. Some things must be left to the pro's, but over the years I have found that people that I think are the pro's, aren't. Sometimes you have to go on faith though.
There are a few truck repair places her in Corpus so I might take it to one of them first, but likely will look at it first. When I drove it with Brett and the PO, the coach stopped fine, no pulling to the right as one might expect with a brake pad not releasing, no squeal, or any indication on the wheel that there was a issue with the brake. But there is a air leak on that side some maybe they are related. Hope to find out. There is still sufficient material on the brakes so I'm not to worried.
Bob

Re: Wheels and torque and jacks

Reply #21 – June 02, 2018, 07:45:54 pm

I don't remove my tires myself. I always insist that my lug nuts be torqued properly. If a shop refuses or doesn't have a torque wrench, I stop as soon as possible where the nuts can be torqued correctly.

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