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Topic: Pure sine wave inverter (Read 1355 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Pure sine wave inverter

Reply #25 –
Quote from: D.J. Osborn –
It's fascinating to read the Magnum vs Victron battles between Roger & calflashbob. Based upon my experience and the experience of others here both are excellent systems and worthy of consideration. We have a Magnim 2812 and it performs flawlessly, while others have a Victron snd are similarly pleased.
I believe a few of us have the Xantrex SW-3012 and are just as happy with it also.
1999 40 ft. U-320 wtfe build 5563 Chuck & Lynda's "Rollin' Inn"  2030 watts solar
prev. mh's 71 GMC 5 yrs. 73 Pace Setter 1 yr. 78 Vogue 5 yrs 81 FTX 40ft all electric 18 yrs. 1996 Monaco Signature 3 yrs.
2014 Grand Cherokee Overland
Dream as if you will live forever. Live as if you will die today.  James Dean

Re: Pure sine wave inverter

Reply #26 –
The magnum auto start has a 25 second gen preheat setting if needed plus a gen start sensor and will retry the gen 4 times.

The victron web site blog mentioned buying a free standing magnum auto start when questioned closely

If your gen has a built in preheat profile then the victron can trigger it once as far as I can see.

Plus the autostart can be integrated with the air conditioning and heating plants fairly easily if you have Dometics and aqua hot or heat in the a/c's with a wall controller.

If I ran a small non UL inverter it would be  with auto fire suppression and know I am taking a fairly big chance



"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: Pure sine wave inverter

Reply #27 –
I too had two prior rvs I put Xantrex SW-3012 in with great results.  Because of the way these rvs were wired (similar to my FT) I was only able to use one of the two. 110v legs.  And so on my third install I selected the Xantrex SW-2012 using the one leg that was offered.  The difference for me then was 150 vs 100 amps that each offered for charging.  100 amps was plenty.  Given the choice again I'd select the  Xantrex SW-3012 for $200 more.  Given the need for a lower charge rates (posible with lifepo4. batteries) you can down rate the charger on either unit.  Never had an issue with Xantrex.  For a stand alone new inverter (with no charger) for my Samsung refrig I selected the Xanrex inverter 2000 over 1500 upon recommendation of the retailer Don Rowe based their experiece of reliability. I bought from  Don Rowe because they had the best price and they always have given me good support over the phone.
Xantrex Freedom X 2000 Pure Sine Inverter

Description
Freedom X 2000 True Sine Wave Power Inverter - 12VDC - 120VAC - 2000WTrue sine wave 120 Vac inverter with built-in transfer switch. Designed for recreational and commercial applications.The Freedom X inverter offers premium performance in a lightweight compact package. It cranks out full output from -4F - 104F for operation in all climate temperatures. The extended surge rating of the Freedom X makes it ideal to start difficult loads including fridge and microwave. The quick connect terminals at AC IN/OUT make installation a breeze.Features:Extended Surge Rating:nbsp;Surges to 2X continuous power for 2 seconds for motor loadsTrue Sine Wave AC Power:nbsp;For operation of sensitive and motor loadsIgnition Control:nbsp;Feature to turn inverter on/off via a 12 VDC signal and to minimize battery drain by switching the inverter off when the ignition key is turned offWide 10-18 VDC Input Range:nbsp;Ensures inverter operation on high voltage alternators found on many new vehicle chassisBuilt-in 30A AC Transfer Relay:nbsp;Senses when outside AC Power is present and transfers the load from the inverter to the source of incoming power (shore or generator). The unit also automatically switches from invert mode to charge modeQuick Installation: Huge wiring bay for easy access and quick connect AC in/out terminals for fast easy wiring
97 U295 40, Build #5040, 6C8.3 325 HP
Oregon Continuous Traveler
Samsung Residential #RF20HFENBSR,
Xantrex SW2012, (3)AGM8D Hse, (2)AGM Grp24 Eng, Victron BMV-712, 1800w Solar 4 LG & 2 Sunpower
Extreme Full Body Pt w/hdlmps, new furn/floor, 4 down Lexus 2004 GX470 AWD curb weight 4,740 lbs
Prev: 1990 Barth, 10L 300 2 yrs; 91&92 Monaco Signature, 10 yrs, 10L C 300 &  6C8.3 300; 1997 ForeT 6C8.3 325 since May 2017.  Employed by Guaranty RV 14+ yrs.  Former VW New Car Dlr/Service Dlr, Sales Mgr, Rv Sales, and Service Adviser from 1968-2017
"Don't criticize what you can't understand" Bob Dylan

Re: Pure sine wave inverter

Reply #28 –
The one I had that was original to the rv lasted for about 1.5 years after I bought the coach.. 15 yrs of service... and it was good also.... until it wasnt... Then I moved on... I think everyone should read up on what makes you happy and what fits your needs.. They all basically the same thing for a little extra money.. really goes to a ford vs Chevy thing (almost ) at the end of the day.. I think overall you cant lose but the Devi is in the details..Read... Amps used while on idle is a big deal unless you have a large bank.. if so I wouldnt worry about it... I am very happy with all my victron parts but they could be anything else and I would probably be happy with it also.... unless it was my old inverter which died .. ^.^d

I see some pluses for Victron in that they have a function and part for about every application/Function you want.. accessorize  with Charge controllers or Color monitors or Gen start or?

Read up on both and see what works.... you probably wont get into the details if your not interested in that stuff... but I do know that you can get automatic updates on the victron just by a wifi connection and turning on auto updates.. think that is a plus

Re: Pure sine wave inverter

Reply #29 –
 So all this talk with an inverter if Sanyo products that use a converter, why not just bypass the converter and not be concerned about a pure sine wave inverter? Has anybody gone that route and just eliminate the  need for a inverter circuit, Or AC power at all?  With just the DC circuit you would not lose amperage, as you do with an inverter. Then if you needed DC to DC Converter, I'm sure it would be less money, and a whole lot less hassle? There is DC power behind the fridge already.  But the amperage draw may require a larger wire that's all? Does the specs say what DC voltage is needed? What am I missing here?
Tom & Barb Root
'95, 40' U-320C SE, bought from Dave Head, 8/2017  FT Motorcade # 18196 Coach Build# 4663 October '94
2015 VW Golf Sportwagen, 1991 Suzuki Samurai, Off-Road Custom Build-Up, W/Toyota 22re mill, and a 2005 Chevy 2500HD, Duramax/Allison TOADS Will also pull a MacGregor 26X Powersailor 2001 Model, owned since new!

Retired SR Rocket Mechanic, FT Sales Associate @  FT of California, Escondido CA.!  and Retired USMC Gunnery Sergeant (Hence Retired Guns! ) Avionics Tech, on A6E Intruder & OV-10 Bronco Aircraft!  V/N Era Vet, and Desert Storm Participant.  Happily Retired now!

Re: Pure sine wave inverter

Reply #30 –
Quote from: RetiredGuns –
So all this talk with an inverter if Sanyo products that use a converter, why not just bypass the converter and not be concerned about a pure sine wave inverter? Has anybody gone that route and just eliminate the  need for a inverter circuit, Or AC power at all?  With just the DC circuit you would not lose amperage, as you do with an inverter. Then if you needed DC to DC Converter, I'm sure it would be less money, and a whole lot less hassle? There is DC power behind the fridge already.  But the amperage draw may require a larger wire that's all? Does the specs say what DC voltage is needed? What am I missing here?

Constant DC voltage of whatever the manufacturer requires. Not variable voltage from low 12's to mid 14's 
1999 40 ft. U-320 wtfe build 5563 Chuck & Lynda's "Rollin' Inn"  2030 watts solar
prev. mh's 71 GMC 5 yrs. 73 Pace Setter 1 yr. 78 Vogue 5 yrs 81 FTX 40ft all electric 18 yrs. 1996 Monaco Signature 3 yrs.
2014 Grand Cherokee Overland
Dream as if you will live forever. Live as if you will die today.  James Dean

Re: Pure sine wave inverter

Reply #31 –
Tom, the Samsung (I don't know about Sanyo) uses a rectifier is to convert the incoming alternating current (AC) to direct current (DC at some voltage, likely not 12v) and then uses pulse-width modulation in an electrical inverter to produce AC of a desired frequency.

It is the AC voltage at a variable frequency that gets you the variable speed compressors that are much more efficient than an on/off compressor.

These refrigerators are very efficient. Ours uses less than 70 watts per hour, about 135 watts max.  The maximum 120v load is 6 amps or 720 watts.  That defines the max power you would need from a second small inverter.  A little extra wouldn't hurt if your going to run more stuff.
Roger Engdahl and Susan Green
2001 U320 3610 #5879 (Home2) - 2014 Jeep Cherokee or 2018 F150
Hastings, MN

Re: Pure sine wave inverter

Reply #32 –
Going a little futher, the ac input goes to a full wave rectifier which is smoothed into approximately 170 volts DC.  Then it is reconverted to AC with the capability of changing the frequency of the AC based on the load of the three phase compressor of the cooling unit.  There's the  efficiency, no start capacitors required for three phase and the compressor only runs at the level actually needed rather than running full bore with high amperage spikes  on start every time like a conventional refrigerator.  It's comparable to using a throttle to control a car rather than an on-off switch.

If you're feeling real adventurous, utilizing today's high voltage solar panels it's likely the DC output could be fed directly into the inverter system, bypassing  the need for AC entirely.  Probably a good application for a super capacitor bank to store energy  rather than a battery bank. 

I use a very similar device , a variable frequency drive, to convert single phase ac input into three phase AC at a controllable frequency to  drive a 4KW spindle on a CNC flat table router.  These are elegant, efficient devices.
"Not so  long ago we were a nation of risk takers, riding five million pounds of  thrust straight into space."  Joe Gresh
Chuck Pearson
1996 U295
2018 Can Am X3 TurboRS

Re: Pure sine wave inverter

Reply #33 –
Quote from: Chuck Pearson –
Going a little futher, the ac input goes to a full wave rectifier which is smoothed into approximately 170 volts DC.  Then it is reconverted to AC with the capability of changing the frequency of the AC based on the load of the three phase compressor of the cooling unit.  There's the  efficiency, no start capacitors required for three phase and the compressor only runs at the level actually needed rather than running full bore with high amperage spikes  on start every time...
Is this technology also applicable to air conditioning compressors?  Sounds like it would be nice to have in our rooftop A/C units.
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"Nature abhors a vacuum"

Re: Pure sine wave inverter

Reply #34 –
Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie –
Is this technology also applicable to air conditioning compressors?  Sounds like it would be nice to have in our rooftop A/C units.

Absolutely.  The ductless mini split units work the same way, that's how I  now have a SEER rating of 22 on a 1.5 ton air conditioner for my house.  Cut my AC bill by 2/3, a significant thing in South Tx.  I've thought long and hard about retrofitting one of these units into the coach.  Imagine some one will come up with a rooftop unit eventually and own the RV air conditioning market.

Dometic et al is no doubt aware of the  possibility but I guess they're happy selling 25 year old tech and are waiting for the Chinese to build a RV unit.
"Not so  long ago we were a nation of risk takers, riding five million pounds of  thrust straight into space."  Joe Gresh
Chuck Pearson
1996 U295
2018 Can Am X3 TurboRS

Re: Pure sine wave inverter

Reply #35 –
+2 on what Chuck p. said it's been possible for at least 20 years, Samsung has a 6 phase ac compressor. Oil in the refrigerant to lubricate compressor bearings reduces heat transfer coils efficiency by 15-20% this was solved 15 years ago with electromagnetic bearings floating the compressor shaft , just super complicated and $$$$$$ Canadian company builds it and it runs at 85,000 rpm and you can stand a nickle on it without it falling over from vibration Never seen one installed, but a KC supplier sent me a picture this week of  2 York 400 ton units with this technology waiting to be picked up and installed. ARI SEER numbers are somewhat bogus with lots of factors applied, EER numbers don't lie. Our rooftop units are simple but inefficient  robust 70's tech strangled by the unit mounting arrangements and physical size. Double down on the condenser coil size and switch to more efficient fan motors and they could get down to somewhere in the 800-900 watt range vs 1500 watts plus each. Running down the road running one roof ac unit with the Genny off is doable at a moderate investment $1500 each or less. Compressor amps are pretty much fixed until you increase the condenser coil size, fan motor power can then be modulated based on demand. Solar powered why not. With some work I can get 4 full size panels on my 36 footers roof.
Old Phart Phred, EIEIO
89 GV ored 36' #3405 300 hp cat 3208 ATAAC side radiator, mountain tamer exhaust brake

Re: Pure sine wave inverter

Reply #36 –
Quote from: Chuck Pearson –
Going a little futher, the ac input goes to a full wave rectifier which is smoothed into approximately 170 volts DC.  Then it is reconverted to AC with the capability of changing the frequency of the AC based on the load of the three phase compressor of the cooling unit.  There's the  efficiency, no start capacitors required for three phase and the compressor only runs at the level actually needed rather than running full bore with high amperage spikes  on start every time like a conventional refrigerator.  It's comparable to using a throttle to control a car rather than an on-off switch.

Our Samsung wotks perfectly and appears to be very efficient. However it does have some interesting operating characteristics. Ours starts out making some moans and groans and then seems to run for a very long time. These appear to just be the normal characteristics of its high-efficiency mode of operation and I'm very happy to live with them!
David and Carolyn Osborn
1995 U320C SE 40' Build 4726 Feb 1995
FMCA 147762
Motorcade 17186

Re: Pure sine wave inverter

Reply #37 –
Quote from: Roger & Susan in Home2 –
Techno-babble ahead.

Most Samsung refrigerators now use Digital Inverter Technology also called Variable Frequency Drive (or VFD in short). Samsung uses a variable frequency motor that can change its speed if the frequency of the incoming alternating current is changed. Thus to achieve this variable-frequency a rectifier is used to convert the incoming alternating current (AC) to direct current (DC) and then uses pulse-width modulation in an electrical inverter to produce AC of a desired frequency. This results in significantly better efficiency and electricity savings.  The refrigerator compressor speeds up or slows down as cooling loads change.  (Compiled from several articles)

So why turn DC into AC to just be turned back into DC and back into AC again?  LOL.  Somebody should hack the samsung to run off DC.
1998 U270 34'

Re: Pure sine wave inverter

Reply #38 –
I think it is converted to DC at some other voltage the 12 v and the uses a Pulse Width Modulation to get back to some AC voltage ( maybe not 120v) at a variable frequency to vary the compressor speed.  Any hack might fry the refrig.  As it is it is very efficient.
Roger Engdahl and Susan Green
2001 U320 3610 #5879 (Home2) - 2014 Jeep Cherokee or 2018 F150
Hastings, MN
 

Re: Pure sine wave inverter

Reply #39 –
Quote from: krush –
So why turn DC into AC to just be turned back into DC and back into AC again?  LOL.  Somebody should hack the samsung to run off DC.

Variable
Load, and it gets more complicated, Samsung has a six phase compressor. They can be so highly integrated that repairs are not possible after leaving factory
Old Phart Phred, EIEIO
89 GV ored 36' #3405 300 hp cat 3208 ATAAC side radiator, mountain tamer exhaust brake