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Topic: 5.9 Killer Dowl Pin PM in Three Hours (Read 786 times) previous topic - next topic

5.9 Killer Dowl Pin PM in Three Hours

Excellent YouTube presentation on a preventative maintenance KDP replacement including radiator R&R and water pump change.
Seems like a well spent morning to give peace of mind for 5.9 owners. This guy is an excellent mechanic, explains it well with good tips at the end. He does it all out in the Arizona desert too. He is not even in a hurry or could have done it well under three hours. A coach may be a little harder to remove the radiator but even then, it's a pretty quick job. His take on shop honesty is pretty much as I see it.

Pierce
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8a0M5HT3qc
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: 5.9 Killer Dowl Pin PM in Three Hours

Reply #1
How often does the killer dowel pin rear its ugly head?
1992 Foretravel Grand Villa
U225 SBID Build No. 4134
1986 Rockwood Driftwood
1968 S.I.A.T.A. Spring
1962 Studebaker Lark
1986 Honda VF700C
1983 Honda VF750C
Charlie, the Dog was broken out of jail 24 Oct 2023
N1RPN
AA1OH (H)e who must be obeyed.

Re: 5.9 Killer Dowl Pin PM in Three Hours

Reply #2
Cummins says 4% but that was in 2004. Note that the van in the video had a pin that was part way out. Since it just happened to a forum member, I thought I would post the video. I just read about someone who had it come out twice.

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: 5.9 Killer Dowl Pin PM in Three Hours

Reply #3
Cummins says 4% but that was in 2004. Note that the van in the video had a pin that was part way out. Since it just happened to a forum member, I thought I would post the video. I just read about someone who had it come out twice.

Pierce
One out of every twenty-five 5.9 engines suffer catastrophic engine failure because of a loose dowel pin?
1992 Foretravel Grand Villa
U225 SBID Build No. 4134
1986 Rockwood Driftwood
1968 S.I.A.T.A. Spring
1962 Studebaker Lark
1986 Honda VF700C
1983 Honda VF750C
Charlie, the Dog was broken out of jail 24 Oct 2023
N1RPN
AA1OH (H)e who must be obeyed.

Re: 5.9 Killer Dowl Pin PM in Three Hours

Reply #4
No, catastrophic engine failure only occurs on a few. Three possibilities here. Either the pin comes out and falls to the bottom of the crankcase, the pin falls on top of the gear and pops the timing case or it gets wedged between the gears, breaks a gear and the valves hit the pistons. Seems like this is the least likely scenario. Of course, if it just drops down to the bottom, the owner never notices.

From what I have read, this happens mostly to 1989 to 1998 5.9 12 valve engines. If the pin came out of 4% of the engines by 2004, the percentage has to be higher by now. Since some Foretravels use the 5.9 6BT Cummins and it has happened to at least one forum member, seems like it makes sense to at least be aware of the problem and perhaps put it on the PM list. Hey, $50 for the parts and three hours buys a lot of peace of mind to me. Towing coverage has gone down with AAA and who wants to be stuck by the side of the road a long ways from home. To me, it's like the potential fan problem on the rear radiator Detroits. Yes, checking the fan is easier but a failure could also cost a ton of $$$.

So, no, I didn't read about it and sweep it under the carpet. Chances are that it won't happen to most owners but if it does, it could be a little expensive or a lot expensive.

Quote: The "Killer Dowel Pin", or simply KDP, is a small metal dowel that is used to align the front engine cover (timing gear cover) to the engine block during assembly. On the Cummins 6BT, particularly 1994 - 1998 model year engines equipped with the P1700 injection pump, the dowel pin has a tendency to work itself out of its bore and eventually fall out entirely. The problem lies in the location of the dowel pin - directly above the camshaft gear. If the dowel pin dislodges, it is inevitably going to land on the cam gear. What follows is either severe damage or (if luck is on your side) absolutely nothing at all.

Step by step with photos for the DIYer except for the radiator/intercooler pull: 5.9L 12v Cummins KDP Tab Installation Instructions

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: 5.9 Killer Dowl Pin PM in Three Hours

Reply #5
The only issue we had with the 5.9 in our '93 U225 was when the harmonic balancer worked it's way out of wherever and sheared the blades off of the radiator fan. Suddenly, we began to overheat! Headscratching, walking around the coach looking for fluid or oil ... nothing but a strange piece of some kind of plastic laying on the toad. Inside, lift up the bed ... more strange plastic!  Took a minute to figure out what had happened!  Of course, we were 14 miles west of South Bumblefart, TX ... no phone signal ... buzzards circling above us.  Many hours later a connection with Good Sam had been established and the proper tow truck arrived. 85 miles to Fort Stockton and the nearest repair facility. That paid the Good Sam Premium for ERS for the next 10 years!! 

Good times .... Good times.....
Carol & Jeff Savournin
Usta have a '93 U225 36', Usta have a '95 U320 40', Usta have a '02 U320 40'
Usta have a 2006 Born Free, Usta have a 2011 Phoenix Cruiser
Usta have a 2012 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited 4dr
"Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life."  Steve Jobs

Re: 5.9 Killer Dowl Pin PM in Three Hours

Reply #6
I just talked to my mechanic yesterday in Kinnewick, WA. ( See my recent posts in Trouble on the road.) When the cover was removed the KDP was still in place; not the problem after all. A rear mount for the air compressor had either broken or come loose leaving the compressor hanging only on the front bolt which bolts through a mounting hole on the cover. Evidently, the bouncing of the compressor cracked the cover. Same result: oil all over the place; multiple CB's in repairs.
1993 U225 36'
Build #4295
1979 Int'l Scout II
2005 BMW R1200RT

Re: 5.9 Killer Dowl Pin PM in Three Hours

Reply #7
The only issue we had with the 5.9 in our '93 U225 was when the harmonic balancer worked it's way out of wherever and sheared the blades off of the radiator fan. Suddenly, we began to overheat! Headscratching, walking around the coach looking for fluid or oil ... nothing but a strange piece of some kind of plastic laying on the toad. Inside, lift up the bed ... more strange plastic!  Took a minute to figure out what had happened!  Of course, we were 14 miles west of South Bumblefart, TX ... no phone signal ... buzzards circling above us.  Many hours later a connection with Good Sam had been established and the proper tow truck arrived. 85 miles to Fort Stockton and the nearest repair facility. That paid the Good Sam Premium for ERS for the next 10 years!! 

Good times .... Good times.....
Carol you certainly have a way with words, ie the turbo turd, and if am not mistaken, confess did' nt you start some odd Gran Prix races somewhere around a campground.. can't seem to find in search mode. Maybe someone can post a link. As it was funny also.
Old Phart Phred, EIEIO
89 GV ored 36' #3405 300 hp cat 3208 ATAAC side radiator, mountain tamer exhaust brake

Re: 5.9 Killer Dowl Pin PM in Three Hours

Reply #8
I just talked to my mechanic yesterday in Kinnewick, WA. ( See my recent posts in Trouble on the road.) When the cover was removed the KDP was still in place; not the problem after all. A rear mount for the air compressor had either broken or come loose leaving the compressor hanging only on the front bolt which bolts through a mounting hole on the cover. Evidently, the bouncing of the compressor cracked the cover. Same result: oil all over the place; multiple CB's in repairs.
But the internals of the engine should be good and the KDP can be addressed when reassembling.
1999 40 ft. U-320 wtfe build 5563 Chuck & Lynda's "Rollin' Inn"  2030 watts solar
prev. mh's 71 GMC 5 yrs. 73 Pace Setter 1 yr. 78 Vogue 5 yrs 81 FTX 40ft all electric 18 yrs. 1996 Monaco Signature 3 yrs.
2014 Grand Cherokee Overland
Dream as if you will live forever. Live as if you will die today.  James Dean

Re: 5.9 Killer Dowl Pin PM in Three Hours

Reply #9
No, catastrophic engine failure only occurs on a few. Three possibilities here. Either the pin comes out and falls to the bottom of the crankcase, the pin falls on top of the gear and pops the timing case or it gets wedged between the gears, breaks a gear and the valves hit the pistons. Seems like this is the least likely scenario.

Step by step with photos for the DIYer except for the radiator/intercooler pull: 5.9L 12v Cummins KDP Tab Installation Instructions

Pierce

Pierce, I'm still trying to wrap my mind around a 1 in 25 failure rate.  I had a heart attack trying to work with company owners who didn't believe the math while trying to maintain a real world Ppk to keep the failure rate below 3 parts per million.
Oh, well, we aren't really going anywhere until the Siata is finished, and I can probably bang out a 3 hour job in two weeks and finish with new belts and clean radiators.  My immediate marching orders are to drain and refill the water tank in preparation for hurricane travel.
So I'm going to install the choke cable on the Siata.
1992 Foretravel Grand Villa
U225 SBID Build No. 4134
1986 Rockwood Driftwood
1968 S.I.A.T.A. Spring
1962 Studebaker Lark
1986 Honda VF700C
1983 Honda VF750C
Charlie, the Dog was broken out of jail 24 Oct 2023
N1RPN
AA1OH (H)e who must be obeyed.

Re: 5.9 Killer Dowl Pin PM in Three Hours

Reply #10
Correct. There is a retainer that will be installed to hold the KDP in place.
1993 U225 36'
Build #4295
1979 Int'l Scout II
2005 BMW R1200RT

Re: 5.9 Killer Dowl Pin PM in Three Hours

Reply #11
Here is a Cummins response to the problem. I think I might provide both Cummins and a dowel pin kit supplier supplier with your engine's serial number and see how they respond. Cummins has a phone number at the bottom of their response. Quote:

Thanks very much for your email messages on the Dodge ISB gear cover dowel pin.

We have also been reading the TDR messages that customers have been sending in on the subject and a review the dowel pin issue has been done by Cummins. This is how we know the issue today:

The timing pin diameter from the supplier and the hole drilled for the pin, are designed to be 'press fit' dimensions. In some rare cases, the supplied timing pin dimension and the drilled hole dimension, may not provide the correct 'press fit'. During assembly line manufacturing, it is impossible to determine the amount of 'press fit' between the pin and the drilled hole, once the pin is installed into the bore.

A few of the pins have not had the correct 'press fit' in the drilled hole and have worked out of the hole. This does cause extensive damage to the gears and gear cover. The percentage of failure is very, very low and did not justify a major campaign of all engines. If an unexpected failure should occur during the warranty period of the engine, the repair will be handled under normal warranty practices.

Early in 1998 the gear cover was changed to a 'blind hole' design, which would not let the dowel pin move out of the bore. If you have a great fear of this pin coming out, we suggest discussing this issue with your local Dodge dealer or Cummins distributor, to determine the appropriate action in each situation.

The pin itself can be replaced if desired or Locktite can be used to hold it in place, without having to replace the pin or gear housing assembly.

Inspection and securing of the timing pin:

1. Remove the damper, pulley and gear cover from front of engine.
2. Tap on the dowel pin with a flat punch to insure that it is seated in the bore.
3. Clean all the oil from area with solvent and dry completely.
4. Apply some wicking type Locktite on the dowel pin and housing and let the Locktite cure.
5. Reinstall the cover with a new seal and gasket.
6. Reinstall damper and pulley.

We hope this helps you understand the dowel issue better.

Thank you for your interest in Cummins power or products. Please let us know if you need assistance in locating the nearest Cummins-authorized distributor or dealer. Please feel free to use our International Dealer Locator: (http://www.cummins.com/partserv/intro.html) found on the Customer Assistance page of the Cummins website (www.cummins.com).

Let us know if have other questions, or if away from your computer, feel free to call us toll free at 1-800-DIESELS (343-7357).

Regards,
--
Powermaster
Customer Assistance Center
Cummins Inc.
Email: powermaster@cummins.com


I have to say that I like the raised cover that is held in place by the fastener next to the pin. I suppose wicking lock tight will work but with the extended cover, neither one can come loose and for $10, how can you go wrong.

You could see it as a chance to replace the water pump with not much more time involved in pulling the cover off and making the modification.

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

 

Re: 5.9 Killer Dowl Pin PM in Three Hours

Reply #12
Here is a Cummins response to the problem. I think I might provide both Cummins and a dowel pin kit supplier supplier with your engine's serial number and see how they respond. Cummins has a phone number at the bottom of their response. Quote:

Thanks very much for your email messages on the Dodge ISB gear cover dowel pin.
The timing pin diameter from the supplier and the hole drilled for the pin, are designed to be 'press fit' dimensions. In some rare cases, the supplied timing pin dimension and the drilled hole dimension, may not provide the correct 'press fit'. During assembly line manufacturing, it is impossible to determine the amount of 'press fit' between the pin and the drilled hole, once the pin is installed into the bore.

A few of the pins have not had the correct 'press fit' in the drilled hole and have worked out of the hole. This does cause extensive damage to the gears and gear cover. The percentage of failure is very, very low and did not justify a major campaign of all engines. If an unexpected failure should occur during the warranty period of the engine, the repair will be handled under normal warranty practices.
I have to say that I like the raised cover that is held in place by the fastener next to the pin. I suppose wicking lock tight will work but with the extended cover, neither one can come loose and for $10, how can you go wrong.
You could see it as a chance to replace the water pump with not much more time involved in pulling the cover off and making the modification.

Pierce
Thanks Pierce.  The new choke cable is in the Siata, and everything is covered up for the afternoon rain.  It was time to dump the black water, so those valves are closed and the incoming water is turned off.  Yes, I'm using up the water in the tank in preparation for adding fresh water with 18ml of chlorine bleach, so why didn't we just use the water while hiding from the storm?  30 years of experience.  It's easier to say "O-kay."

I'm not really worried about the dowel pin, and I have a source for the dowel pin Loctite, and I agree with you for $10 the metal hold down tab under the bolt is cheap peace of mind.  When I dig into that nightmare, I want to replace the coolant hoses, belts and probably the water pump.

As for Cummins claim that you can't find the loose dowel pins at assembly that's bull pucky.  That technology is off the shelf.  But it certainly would be inconvenient to have to change out a 1-ton engine block on the assembly line and relatively speaking, removing that dowel pin once installed would be expensive and has the possibility of introducing a whole host of new problems.  Art Joly
1992 Foretravel Grand Villa
U225 SBID Build No. 4134
1986 Rockwood Driftwood
1968 S.I.A.T.A. Spring
1962 Studebaker Lark
1986 Honda VF700C
1983 Honda VF750C
Charlie, the Dog was broken out of jail 24 Oct 2023
N1RPN
AA1OH (H)e who must be obeyed.