110 volt help needed. I'm stumped. 2002 U270

Topic: 110 volt help needed. I'm stumped. 2002 U270 (Read 1341 times) previous topic - next topic

110 volt help needed. I'm stumped. 2002 U270

September 30, 2019, 05:19:13 pm

I am getting ready to move the coach, and all of a sudden, I don't have 110 volts! Save for the inverter. Let me tell you what I have done, and maybe someone can point me to the solution. I last used it about a month ago when I ran the generator AND an air conditioner. No problems...until today.

1. The Coach has been plugged in, and the Prosine inverter/charger has been keeping things charged properly according to my Tri-Metric unit. But NONE of the outlets work. The GFI is fine (see #3).

2. I turned off shore power, and fired up the generator. NONE of the outlets work, just like on shore power. I have turned all breakers on and off, but I do not believe that is the issue, since the inverter circuits all work...see #3.

3. With no generator and no shore power, I turned on the inverter. Everything on the inverter outlet circuit now works (Microwave, bathroom GFI, and the rest of the items that are on the inverter circuit).

4. So I opened the Automatic Transfer Switch, thinking that was clearly going to be my problem. But it doesn't seem to be the fault. I filmed the appropriate relay properly closing for using the shore cord power AND using the generator. Each relay for the appropriate power source is closing fine, and I measured zero resistance across all relay points when the relays were pushed into contact (unpowered) with their center button.

Can anyone give me a suggestion where to look next?

Re: 110 volt help needed. I'm stumped. 2002 U270

Reply #1 – September 30, 2019, 05:29:00 pm

Brad,

Yes, the ATS is where to check (with a voltmeter) for power IN and OUT.

Tell us what you read IN from shore power and generator and on the OUT side from both source.

If all OK, next place to check is the main 120 VAC breaker box at the foot of the bed.

Re: 110 volt help needed. I'm stumped. 2002 U270

Reply #2 – September 30, 2019, 05:29:37 pm

Brad, With the 50 amp cord plugged in, use your VOM meter to prob for 120 vac. Start wtih contacts on both sides of the transfer switch. With power there, remove the face plate on you 120 vac circuit breaker panel and prob for power to the panel and power on the outlet side of each circuit breaker. Where the power stops is where the problem is located.

This is excatly Bretts suggestion.

Hope this helps.

Re: 110 volt help needed. I'm stumped. 2002 U270

Reply #3 – September 30, 2019, 05:37:35 pm

Stay safe.

Use a non-contact voltage tester

Fluke 1AC-A1-II VoltAlert Non-Contact Voltage Tester , like this:

Amazon.com: Fluke 1AC-A1-II VoltAlert Non-Contact Voltage Tester: Industrial...

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Re: 110 volt help needed. I'm stumped. 2002 U270

Reply #4 – September 30, 2019, 05:37:59 pm

Quote from: Brad & Christine Slaughter – September 30, 2019, 05:19:13 pm

3. With no generator and no shore power, I turned on the inverter. Everything on the inverter outlet circuit now works (Microwave, bathroom GFI, and the rest of the items that are on the inverter circuit).

Can anyone give me a suggestion where to look next?

So the outlets that are not working, work when the inverter is on? If so, do you have a second transfer switch that does the inverter or is the inverter have it's transfer switch built into it? What ever way you have it it sounds like there is where to start looking.

Re: 110 volt help needed. I'm stumped. 2002 U270

Reply #5 – September 30, 2019, 06:16:46 pm

Quote from: Tom Lang – September 30, 2019, 05:37:35 pm

Stay safe.

Use a non-contact voltage tester

Fluke 1AC-A1-II VoltAlert Non-Contact Voltage Tester , like this:

Amazon.com: Fluke 1AC-A1-II VoltAlert Non-Contact Voltage Tester: Industrial...

I've never used such a critter...but it doesn't look like I can measure voltage with it???

As an Amazon Associate Foretravel Owners' Forum earns from qualifying purchases.

Re: 110 volt help needed. I'm stumped. 2002 U270

Reply #6 – September 30, 2019, 06:28:07 pm

Quote from: turbojack – September 30, 2019, 05:37:59 pm

So the outlets that are not working, work when the inverter is on? If so, do you have a second transfer switch that does the inverter or is the inverter have it's transfer switch built into it? What ever way you have it it sounds like there is where to start looking.

Yes, the outlets (3 complete circuits) do work ONLY when there is no shore power or generator power. That lets the inverter work, and the inverter will then power all three of the circuits. That confuses me, because I can't see how the inverter knows not to come on when there is either shorepower or generator power....since that power is theoretically not making it to Switching Relay #2 (the ATS under the bed).

I will start taking voltage readings as suggested with shore power plugged in and try to see what is there at the ATS, and then at the mains under the bed.

I am unsure what "4x4 Junction Box" means. Maybe there is a bunch of wire-nut connections somewhere between the ATS (Switching Relay #1) and the Main Circuit Breaker box? If so, that could be my culprit. I do not remember how to insert a picture of my wiring diagram....

Re: 110 volt help needed. I'm stumped. 2002 U270

Reply #7 – September 30, 2019, 06:34:02 pm

There is also a built-in automatic transfer switch IN the inverter. All of the inverted power runs THROUGH the inverter even tough it is off. If your airs work on shore power then that's the problem. You didn't say if they do or don't and I gather it's only inverted outlets that don't work with inverter off.

Re: 110 volt help needed. I'm stumped. 2002 U270

Reply #8 – September 30, 2019, 06:38:17 pm

Quote from: Twig – September 30, 2019, 06:34:02 pm

There is also an automatic transfer switch IN the inverter. All of the inverted power runs THROUGH the inverter even tough it is off.

Yes, BUT (read that large BUT) on some model Foretravels there are TWO ATS's. The second one allows for higher amp pass through than is possible through the "in inverter" ATS.

Re: 110 volt help needed. I'm stumped. 2002 U270

Reply #9 – September 30, 2019, 06:46:06 pm

Quote from: Brad & Christine Slaughter – September 30, 2019, 06:16:46 pm

I've never used such a critter...but it doesn't look like I can measure voltage with it???

True, but great for indicating presence or absence of ac power.

Re: 110 volt help needed. I'm stumped. 2002 U270

Reply #10 – September 30, 2019, 07:21:42 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – September 30, 2019, 06:38:17 pm

Yes, BUT (read that large BUT) on some model Foretravels there are TWO ATS's. The second one allows for higher amp pass through than is possible through the "in inverter" ATS.

Yes. My FT has TWO ATSs. Just like #1 transfers Shore power (preferred) or Generator power (override), my #2 ATS takes power from the Main Breaker Box (priority) or Inverter output. Near as I can tell, the #2 only carries one of the lines of power, whereas #1 carries both incoming lines. The inverter is on when I enable it (switch). My Prosine meter will tell me if I turn on the Inverter and the Standby light will go on if it isn't needed, and it will light up Inverting when it actually is producing power. That is another part of the puzzle, as the inverter will NOT power the outlets when turned on if either shore power or the generator is "on"...despite the fact that the power isn't actually getting all the way to the circuits. It stays in standby mode until I turn off the generator and disconnect shore power. Hopefully some voltage readings will help.

If there is power on ATS #1's output, then the problem has to be between that output and the mains in the under-bed box. I have some construction going on that is delaying me getting the voltage measurements while I try to puzzle this out.

Re: 110 volt help needed. I'm stumped. 2002 U270

Reply #11 – September 30, 2019, 07:59:13 pm

Narrowing it down. I found that my 110 Engine Heater (circuit 9) AND the Splendide (circuit 12) both have power. They are each on a different line inside (Engine Heater is leg #1; Splendide is leg #2.

So. Not the ATS#1. It IS passing power on to the main panel.

Time to focus on ATS#2. ATS#2 will pass inverter power to circuits 1, 2, and 5, but will not pass shore/generator power from ATS#1. So now it is my focus. ALL of the outlets being on the inverter circuits was a surprise.

Something is telling the ATS not to pass inverter power on because there is shore/generator power, but it isn't passing the main power through. Should be easy enough to see if there is a faulty relay in there. Back in a bit...

Re: 110 volt help needed. I'm stumped. 2002 U270

Reply #12 – September 30, 2019, 08:46:15 pm

OK. I think it has all come together.

The ATS#2 appears faulty. With the inverter on (and no power input from Generator or Shore), the circuits are energized just fine. Inverter Relay closes and power is sent through. With the shore power on, the input side of the relay is energized...but the relay does not close. Thus the output is zero. Apparently, if there is voltage on the input side of the shore/generator wire, the ATS will not energize the secondary Inverter relay. Thus it all falls into place and is likely a failed coil on the shore/generator relay side.

Now to hunt for a new ATS. Any recommendations? It does have to be 50A, but it does NOT have to be a 2-line, 220 volt ATS like FT put there, as only one line is actually present.

Thank you all for letting me bounce this off of you. It really helps!

Re: 110 volt help needed. I'm stumped. 2002 U270

Reply #13 – September 30, 2019, 09:05:14 pm

When mine failed just before a trip, I had to buy from CW as there was no time to get one online. They all stock the 50 amp

Re: 110 volt help needed. I'm stumped. 2002 U270

Reply #14 – September 30, 2019, 09:13:46 pm

This seems to be the normal choice now??? Progressive Dynamics PD52V

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Re: 110 volt help needed. I'm stumped. 2002 U270

Reply #15 – September 30, 2019, 10:47:37 pm

Problem is one of two parts. The control board that tells which contactor to engage or the contactor. If the contactor you can get just a new one without having to buy a new transfer switch.

Re: 110 volt help needed. I'm stumped. 2002 U270

Reply #16 – September 30, 2019, 10:49:00 pm

Brad, nice to see you guys back on forum if only for a fleeting moment.
JohnH

Re: 110 volt help needed. I'm stumped. 2002 U270

Reply #17 – September 30, 2019, 11:05:29 pm

Quote from: John Haygarth – September 30, 2019, 10:49:00 pm

Brad, nice to see you guys back on forum if only for a fleeting moment.
JohnH

Hi John. Hope to be here a bit more often, now that the last child has left the nest. We are moving the coach back from the summer place in Oregon back to AZ next week, but then plan to put at least 6,000 to 10,000 miles on it next year. Lots of places to go, now that we're not tied to one spot for school! I'm re-retiring from parenthood for the second and final time! Even got a new towed in the form of a 2015 Jeep Wrangler JKU for this trip and beyond.

I really love my FT, and it has given me very few problems over my (about) 14 years of owning this one (2nd FT). I will probably tinker with this ATS once I get it out, but the old coach deserves $137 for a new switch. I don't have time to waste fooling with fixing it before next Monday.

Gives me new appreciation for all of you folks on the Forum, as well as the beautiful electric schematics FT provided.

Re: 110 volt help needed. I'm stumped. 2002 U270

Reply #18 – September 30, 2019, 11:46:51 pm

Schedule a trip up this way sometime as I am sure you would enjoy it. We have a nice place with fhu for guests on their own private lot, complete with indoor pool, gym and hot tub
Lots of wineries and fresh local fruits.
JohnH

Re: 110 volt help needed. I'm stumped. 2002 U270

Reply #19 – October 01, 2019, 10:17:17 am

Morning Brad,
I'm not sure how the secondary transfer switch works but can you move over to the side for the other leg in the transfer switch that is now not used?

Re: 110 volt help needed. I'm stumped. 2002 U270

Reply #20 – October 02, 2019, 09:02:57 pm

Quote from: John Duld – October 01, 2019, 10:17:17 am

Morning Brad,
I'm not sure how the secondary transfer switch works but can you move over to the side for the other leg in the transfer switch that is now not used?

In the second ATS, the two relay outputs each have all three lines (hot1. hot2 and common) jumpered together, so it doesn't matter which set of outputs you connect to.

The issue is that the main power (shore or generator) is live when it comes in on one side of the primary. That relay has failed to close and send power through to the output side.
BUT, it is telling the unit that there is power present from the main source. Since the unit believes there is power on that relay, it prevents the inverter circuit from closing and providing power from the inverter.
When there is no generator, or no shore power, then the inverter circuit closes its relay just fine.

Now I need a little more help please with the new box from someone who has used this replacement.

This new box is wired a little different. I intended to simply use the appropriate sets of L1 and L2 terminals, leaving L3 empty. On the output side, L1 and L3 are black to indicate power, while L2 is white to indicate Common. So it was logical to use L1 and L2. HOWEVER, on the relay that I believe is the primary, there is a small black wire on the input side coming only from L3, and a small white wire coming from L2.
This leads me to think that I MUST use the L2(common) and L3(power) terminals for input powers, leaving L1 empty, as these little wires are likely the control wires to set priority. Am I correct?

I do not understand why there is NO real schematic with the new box. It would be easy with a little more than the block diagram!
Attached is a picture of the INPUT side of the box.

Re: 110 volt help needed. I'm stumped. 2002 U270

Reply #21 – October 03, 2019, 01:11:28 pm

Look on the inside of the cover The schematic should be there. I just installed the same box.

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