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Topic: battery not charging 87' GrandVilla (Read 1584 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: battery not charging 87' GrandVilla

Reply #25
I had a similar problem, turned out it was a $5 relay, runs from the alternator rear over to the bay wall under the bed.
WHERE IS THIS PETICULAR RELAY?
87' Grandvilla OREG
99k Miles
Recent purchase... learning more then I wanted to :)
Thrilled for the journey...

Re: battery not charging 87' GrandVilla

Reply #26
You seem to have thrown lots of parts at this problem. What are you using for a start battery and what is the current voltage?
Are the battery terminals clean and the cables tight?
Admittedly, when I am coming across old and warn parts, I am replacing them indeed. Some actually needed it.
the start battery is good, Kirkland brand and nearing the 4 year mark, I will replace this later on....

just for the info, I got a screaming deal on this baby. even if I put 8K into it ( which I plan to do) it will still be less then its worth.
and yes, labor of love, and no frustration. I love the journey.
87' Grandvilla OREG
99k Miles
Recent purchase... learning more then I wanted to :)
Thrilled for the journey...

Re: battery not charging 87' GrandVilla

Reply #27
Try to use a logical approach to finding a solution.

In typical alternator terminology "S" does NOT indicate the "Excite" terminal.  "I" (for Ignition) would commonly indicate the "Excite" connection.  This marking may also hold true for voltage regulators, although I'm not sure cuz it's been decades since I last saw one.  See diagram below for a generic diagram of alternator + external voltage regulator.  Notice the switched ignition signal goes to the "I" terminal on the regulator.

If you believe the alternator is not getting the excite signal, try to determine why.

Try to search the alternator brand/model number online.  There are "installation instructions" available online for almost every common alternator.  If you have a separate voltage regulator, you also need the instructions for that device.

The reason you want to see the installation instructions is to identify the correct connection of wires to the alternator/regulator.  Does the alternator (or the regulator) have a terminal dedicated to a EXCITE wire connection?  If so, do you have a wire connected to that terminal?

If you DO have a EXCITE wire connected to the alternator/regulator, is that wire HOT when the ignition switch is turned to ON position?

IF the wire is HOT with ignition, then it is good.  If not, you must either replace the wire or find the break and repair the wire.

Any length of wire, or fusible link, can be easily tested for continuity with a multimeter or even a simple 12 volt test light.


.... ok.
I have a picture here of the replacement I was given for the alternator. There does not seem to be an excitement wire, unless it is coming through the sense wire.
 ( can not attach a photo!)

there is a positive 4g wire,
there is a negative 4G wire (ground)
and then there is a combo plug for a FLO and a STR

I checked the voltregulator.
the I prong is not hooked up, and I heard somewhere it was supposed to be unhooked. this would mean that the alternator I have should be internally excited from the belt spinning it.

Can anyone support this claim? this seems to be a carquest rebult alternator.


87' Grandvilla OREG
99k Miles
Recent purchase... learning more then I wanted to :)
Thrilled for the journey...

Re: battery not charging 87' GrandVilla

Reply #28
.... ok.
I have a picture here of the replacement I was given for the alternator. There does not seem to be an excitement wire, unless it is coming through the sense wire.

I checked the voltregulator.  The I prong is not hooked up, and I heard somewhere it was supposed to be unhooked.  This would mean that the alternator I have should be internally excited from the belt spinning it.

Can anyone support this claim? this seems to be a carquest rebult alternator.
1.  The "Excite" and the "Sense" wires on an alternator can never be the same wire, because they have two distinct functions.  If your alternator supports these functions, it will have two separate terminals for these wires.

2.  The alternator you have may "Sense" the battery voltage through the large B (positive) charging cable.  IF this is the case, and IF your alternator is connected to a diode based battery isolator, then the alternator might turn itself on, but it will not supply the optimum charging voltage to either battery bank.  What is DUVAC?  You said you have a new battery isolator.  What is the brand and model number?

3.  "I checked the voltage regulator.  The "I" prong is not hooked up, and I heard somewhere it was supposed to be unhooked.  This would mean that the alternator I have should be internally excited from the belt spinning it."

Some alternators are indeed internally (self) excited...some are not.  Depending on what you "heard somewhere" to establish this fact is not the greatest idea.  I again urge you to find a copy of the installation instructions for your alternator, either online or from the seller.  If you are not Google search savvy, post the complete model number info (from the tag on the alternator) and we will try to find the installation sheet.

It is not a good idea to "experiment" with hooking up wires to alternators and regulators in a random fashion.  Tends to let smoke out.
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"Nature abhors a vacuum"

Re: battery not charging 87' GrandVilla

Reply #29
OK, based on your description of your alternator connections, I found the video linked below.  I'm guessing your alternator looks similar to the one in the video?  I personally learned a bunch from watching the video.  For one thing, the generic diagram I posted in Reply #22 does not exactly match this setup (connection to "I" regulator terminal is different).  Hope it helps you understand how your system works.

The video explains the meaning of the alternator combo plug connection for FLD and STR.  FLD = Field.  STR = Stator.

According to the video, the Field (FLD) wire is what energizes the alternator.  When that connection on the alternator "sees" 12 volts, the alternator starts putting out charging voltage.  This, then, functions as the "excite" connection on the alternator.

The voltage regulator has 4 terminals:
"I"  =  Instrument (or Indicator)  Used to power optional idiot light on dash.
"A"  =  Battery Positive (should be HOT at all times)
"S"  =  Stator (should be HOT only when ignition switch is ON)
"F"  =  Field  (goes to FLD connection on alternator)

The wire going to the FLD plug on the alternator comes from the "F" terminal on the voltage regulator.

The "S" terminal on the regulator is connected to a "HOT with ignition switch ON" voltage source.  When this terminal "sees" 12 volts, it tells the regulator to send current down the wire to the FLD terminal on the alternator, which turns the alternator ON.

Armed with this info, you should be able to test the connections on your setup, and determine what is working and what is not.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjdaTypqj6o
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"Nature abhors a vacuum"

Re: battery not charging 87' GrandVilla

Reply #30
OK, based on your description of your alternator connections, I found the video linked below.  I'm guessing your alternator looks similar to the one in the video?  I personally learned a bunch from watching the video.  For one thing, the generic diagram I posted in Reply #22 does not exactly match this setup (connection to "I" regulator terminal is different).  Hope it helps you understand how your system works.

The video explains the meaning of the alternator combo plug connection for FLD and STR.  FLD = Field.  STR = Stator.

The Field (FLD) wire is what energizes the alternator.  When that connection on the alternator "sees" 12 volts, the alternator starts putting out charging voltage.  This, then, functions as the "excite" connection on the alternator.

The voltage regulator has 4 terminals:
"I"  =  Instrument (or Indicator)  Used to power optional idiot light on dash.
"A"  =  Battery Positive (should be HOT at all times)
"S"  =  Stator (should be HOT only when ignition switch is ON)
"F"  =  Field  (goes to FLD connection on alternator)

The wire going to the FLD plug on the alternator comes from the "F" terminal on the voltage regulator.

The "S" terminal on the regulator is connected to a "HOT with ignition switch ON" voltage source.  When this terminal "sees" 12 volts, it tells the regulator to send current down the wire to the FLD terminal on the alternator, which turns the alternator ON.

Armed with this info, you should be able to test the connections on your setup, and determine what is working and what is not.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjdaTypqj6o
Yes, this does give me all I need to know to follow the current system.
Yes, It does look just like the alternators on hand.

The remaining two questions....

1. do I have an idiot charging light in the instrument panel somewhere? when all is said and done might be nice to hook up later.

2. Does this alternator have any issue with an isolator after it instead of being a direct connect to the battery?
87' Grandvilla OREG
99k Miles
Recent purchase... learning more then I wanted to :)
Thrilled for the journey...

Re: battery not charging 87' GrandVilla

Reply #31
1. do I have an idiot charging light in the instrument panel somewhere? when all is said and done might be nice to hook up later.

2. Does this alternator have any issue with an isolator after it instead of being a direct connect to the battery?
1.  I don't know.  Perhaps another '87 model owner can tell you that.  If not, you could always add one yourself...

2.  Once again, I refer you to the discussion on DUVAC charging systems.  What is DUVAC?

In short, IF your alternator and voltage regulator are working correctly, the alternator will put out some amount of charging voltage.  The amount will be controlled by the voltage regulator.  Whatever the alternator puts out will go to the center post on the battery isolator, and from there it goes to the chassis (start) battery and the coach (house) battery.  In a common diode isolator you suffer a loss of slightly less than one volt between the center alternator post and the outside battery posts.  So if, for instance, the alternator sends 13 volts to the center post, the batteries will only see slightly over 12 volts, which is not enough to properly charge the batteries.  This voltage loss explains WHY you either need a specialized type of alternator (DUVAC) to properly work with a diode isolator, OR you need a way to manually adjust the alternator output to the required voltage.

There are several solutions to the "isolator voltage loss" problem...some are simple and some will cost you more money.

Question:  Does your coach have a BOOST switch on the dash?

Here is some light reading:

New battery isolator

Battery Isolator or auto combiner?

Charging both House and Start Batteries
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"Nature abhors a vacuum"

Re: battery not charging 87' GrandVilla

Reply #32
The simplest "work around" for a non-DUVAC alternator (one that does not sense voltage on the battery side of a diode-based isolator is a simple marine ON-OFF switch.

Wire alternator output (from B+ terminal) and chassis battery to one lug.  House battery to the other.  Switch on, both batteries are charged from either alternator or converter or inverter/charger (think of it as a manual boost/combine switch).

Switch off and battery banks are isolated from each other.  With engine running, only the chassis battery is charged.

KISS theory!
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: battery not charging 87' GrandVilla

Reply #33
Folks!
We have some progress.

I have voltage reading from the volt regulator when the master switch is on.

When I put the key into the ON position, it doesn't work. All readings are flat.

So it seems to be something else. Thoughts?
87' Grandvilla OREG
99k Miles
Recent purchase... learning more then I wanted to :)
Thrilled for the journey...

Re: battery not charging 87' GrandVilla

Reply #34
When I put the key into the ON position, it doesn't work. All readings are flat.
What doesn't work?

What readings are flat?  Where are you taking readings?

You have to be as specific as possible with your description.  What are you doing?  What is it that does work, and what doesn't work?  What is the voltage reading exactly, and where are you reading the voltage?  It is difficult to diagnose problems remotely without clear concise information.
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"Nature abhors a vacuum"

Re: battery not charging 87' GrandVilla

Reply #35
Sorry about that.

I test the volt regulator A tab when the RV is just sitting there. I am getting the battery reading at 12.75 ( as would be expected.
No other wires are « hot ».

I turn the key to the « on » position, and the « A » terminal/tab is dead, so is the « S » terminal.

When in the on position at the key, there is no electricity going to the volt regulator
87' Grandvilla OREG
99k Miles
Recent purchase... learning more then I wanted to :)
Thrilled for the journey...

Re: battery not charging 87' GrandVilla

Reply #36
Can you follow the wires that are connected to the "A" terminal and the "S" terminal to see where they go?

You know what you need to see on the regulator terminals.  If the readings are not correct, then you must fix the wiring.

Find a 12 volt source in the engine compartment that is always HOT.  Connect it to the "A" terminal.

Find a 12 volt source in the engine compartment that is HOT when ignition switch is ON.  Connect it to the "S" terminal.

Then try testing everything again.
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"Nature abhors a vacuum"

Re: battery not charging 87' GrandVilla

Reply #37
For doing electrical work like this - especially when trying to track down bad connections or mysterious problems - a set of alligator clip jumper wires is VERY handy.  You should have 3 or 4 pairs of these leads in your tool box.  They are available from many sources online, and at Lowes and Home Depot and many local electronic supply stores.

https://www.harborfreight.com/36-inch-low-voltage-test-leads-66712.html

OR, buy a bag of red and black alligator clips and make your own test leads in various lengths!

https://www.harborfreight.com/28-piece-electrical-clip-set-67589.html
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"Nature abhors a vacuum"

Re: battery not charging 87' GrandVilla

Reply #38
Yes, this does give me all I need to know to follow the current system.
Yes, It does look just like the alternators on hand.

The remaining two questions....

1. do I have an idiot charging light in the instrument panel somewhere? when all is said and done might be nice to hook up later.

2. Does this alternator have any issue with an isolator after it instead of being a direct connect to the battery?
This is the DASH for our 86 Grand Villa.  Lower left corner is the " idiot" voltage gauge... this photo was taken while on a trip with a failing alternator.... we replaced our FORD alternator on a 454 Chevy motor at a CarQuest in a small texas town.
1986 Grand Villa, 454 Chevrolet, 33 SBI tag axle
Build # 2658
2nd owner, original owner was Newman/Freeman Racing, racer Bill Freeman and actor/racer Paul Newman

Re: battery not charging 87' GrandVilla

Reply #39
1.  I don't know.  Perhaps another '87 model owner can tell you that.  If not, you could always add one yourself...

2.  Once again, I refer you to the discussion on DUVAC charging systems.  What is DUVAC?

In short, IF your alternator and voltage regulator are working correctly, the alternator will put out some amount of charging voltage.  The amount will be controlled by the voltage regulator.  Whatever the alternator puts out will go to the center post on the battery isolator, and from there it goes to the chassis (start) battery and the coach (house) battery.  In a common diode isolator you suffer a loss of slightly less than one volt between the center alternator post and the outside battery posts.  So if, for instance, the alternator sends 13 volts to the center post, the batteries will only see slightly over 12 volts, which is not enough to properly charge the batteries.  This voltage loss explains WHY you either need a specialized type of alternator (DUVAC) to properly work with a diode isolator, OR you need a way to manually adjust the alternator output to the required voltage.

There are several solutions to the "isolator voltage loss" problem...some are simple and some will cost you more money.

Question:  Does your coach have a BOOST switch on the dash?

Here is some light reading:

New battery isolator

Battery Isolator or auto combiner?

Charging both House and Start Batteries

Our 86 GV dash.  BOOST switch is top toggle switch highlighted in green in this photo...


1986 Grand Villa, 454 Chevrolet, 33 SBI tag axle
Build # 2658
2nd owner, original owner was Newman/Freeman Racing, racer Bill Freeman and actor/racer Paul Newman

Re: battery not charging 87' GrandVilla

Reply #40
Hello!

Here is what I have at this point.

Charged battery to 12.8

Started RV,

No apparent charging.

Voltage reads 11.79 on both the s and a post,
6.76 on the f post.

Re reading battery: 12.25

Is this enough voltage, or is there enough voltage loss to account for this?
Maybe the battery is bad.!
87' Grandvilla OREG
99k Miles
Recent purchase... learning more then I wanted to :)
Thrilled for the journey...

Re: battery not charging 87' GrandVilla

Reply #41
With engine running, check and record the voltage at the following points:

1.  The large B (positive) output post on the rear of the alternator.
2.  The center (alternator) post on the battery isolator.
3.  Both outside (battery) posts on the isolator.
4.  The POS (+) post on the start battery.

Let us know what you get for voltage readings.
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"Nature abhors a vacuum"

Re: battery not charging 87' GrandVilla

Reply #42
Hello!

Here is what I have at this point.

Charged battery to 12.8

Started RV,

No apparent charging.

Voltage reads 11.79 on both the s and a post,
6.76 on the f post.

Re reading battery: 12.25

Is this enough voltage, or is there enough voltage loss to account for this?
Maybe the battery is bad.!
What was the voltage of the battery before you charged it?
Regardless, your alternator should be putting out around 13.5 volts with the motor running.
1993 U225 Build #: 4285
500 Watts Solar
Honda CRV AWD
Former 1981 Foretravel Travco
Retired, Full Time Off Grid Snowbird

Re: battery not charging 87' GrandVilla

Reply #43
I'd make sure the engine is running at fast idle.
Regards,
Brett

'99 42' Foretravel Xtreme
'14 Brown Motorsports Stacker
'05 Chevy SSR
'02 BMW R1150R

 

Re: battery not charging 87' GrandVilla

Reply #44
Back on the road!

It was a broken wire I side the harness.
87' Grandvilla OREG
99k Miles
Recent purchase... learning more then I wanted to :)
Thrilled for the journey...