Lithium battery lifepo4 batteries yes or no

Topic: Lithium battery lifepo4 batteries yes or no (Read 1856 times) previous topic - next topic

Lithium battery lifepo4 batteries yes or no

December 14, 2020, 02:39:26 pm

What is your experience with specific manufacturers, positive or negative so far with this battery technology for rv use?

Although all the cells are from China, we are seeing many Made in America labels from the such as Battle Born, Lion Energy, Big Battery, cold rated Kilovault, etc.

I thought Big Battery was small until I saw this video. I guess it is small when compared to say someone like LG, Samsung, or Panasonic. I believe it will become interesting as the big companies enter to compete with these smaller companies, or will they just buy them up to gain market share as MBZ did with Freightliner and Detroit Diesel.
https://youtu.be/Mj4OtTLPcyc

https://youtu.be/hOvcgxiSs_Q
https://youtu.be/v1txYs5dmbU

https://youtu.be/ZdE1SfSKXJs

Re: Lithium battery lifepo4 batteries yes or no

Reply #1 – December 14, 2020, 03:01:07 pm

Great topic! Love to have a few for our coach when the time comes. For the down and dirty, see the article comparing Lithium and lead-acid here: The Reality Of RV Lithium Batteries

Pierce

Re: Lithium battery lifepo4 batteries yes or no

Reply #2 – December 14, 2020, 03:10:15 pm

If you can hold out til Quartzite all the battery reps will be there,we got some from Lithium pros in Jan.,had better specs then battle born.

Re: Lithium battery lifepo4 batteries yes or no

Reply #3 – December 14, 2020, 05:01:01 pm

LiFePO4 batteries are a big chunk of change but you need to compare the price based on usable capacity and expected life cycles. LiFePO4 batteries give you (in the case of BattleBorn) 100% of rated capacity to use and still have some reserve. If your 3 8Ds get you 750 amp hrs when they are new and you want to maximize life cycles then you should only use 25% of capacity and then recharge to 100% every time. So that is 187 usable amp hrs. If you use 50% of rated capacity and fully recharge every time you get 375 amp hrs to use but your life cycle count will be about 1/3 that of a 25% use pattern.

So you buy 4 BattleBorn 100 amp hr batteries for about $3600. You get 400 amp hrs to work with and if you manage charge according to recommended rates you can get up to 5000 cycles (from 100% to 0% and back to 100% is one cycle). If you regularly use 200 amp hrs each day and recharge then that is 1/2 cycle. That is 10,000 days. You will never buy batteries gain.

3 new better AGM 8Ds will cost you about $1700. 3 Lifelines will be closer to $2200. And if you use 200 amp hrs each day and recharge to 100% every time you might get 1800-2100 cycles. Maybe 6-8 years. And then buy another set of batteries.

And with AGM and GEL batteries recharging to 100% every time is critical to maintaining capacity. If you don't you start losing capacity. Maybe 10-20% in six years? It is not uncommon. With LiFePO4 batteries you only have to put back in what you use. You can go from 70% to 20% and back to 70% over and over with no ill effects. The BMS (battery management system) likes to see 100% once in a while to balance cells which get max life out of them.

And for most of us simple and inexpensive heating solutions extend the normal operating range.

So if you are coming up to the end of your battery life and need to replace batteries, consider LiFePO4 batteries. The more younuse your coach the more sense it makes. It is not a choice for everyone but it might be for you.

We are happy with ours.

Re: Lithium battery lifepo4 batteries yes or no

Reply #4 – December 14, 2020, 05:15:59 pm

We are building a 400ah system out of 8 single cell 200ah each. It is a win/win like Roger states above. One thing that you also have is the weight loss compared to 8ds. All this in the size of one single 8D.

Mike

Re: Lithium battery lifepo4 batteries yes or no

Reply #5 – December 14, 2020, 06:41:54 pm

I'll have to vote for lithium also.
Every since we upgraded our coach with 1200 watts of solar and 720 aH of lithium we've become sort of energy hogs. By that I mean my DW will plug in the vacume cleaner without thinking and without turning on the geny and just go for it,, probably because we just leave the inverter on almost all day. With the other lead acid house batteries doing that would've been a battery killer. With the lithium batteries they just don't seem to care. We are still running the geny ( mostly because we loose about 2 hours of afternoon sun where we're parked ) about an hour a day though but I'm at least charging at 125 amps,,because I can.
I'll just say at this point I'd do it ( 1200 watts solar, new magnum 3012 hybrid & mag charge controller , 8-90ah Lion Energy batteries ) for 12 coach bucks all over again. Ask me 10 years and hopefully get the same answer.

Re: Lithium battery lifepo4 batteries yes or no

Reply #6 – December 14, 2020, 07:05:32 pm

Love the lithium batteries! We have 8 300ah LifeBlue batteries (actually have 330ah each), 3320w of solar and 5000w inverter and have only had to plug in a hand full of times in the past 14 months of having the system. In those 14 months I have only used 7 out of the 3000 cycles the batteries are warrantied. Yes pricey but just like being plugged into shore power for most situations.

Re: Lithium battery lifepo4 batteries yes or no

Reply #7 – December 15, 2020, 12:09:20 am

My two cents... Like "Range Anxiety", with all-electric vehicles, we found that our particular life style in our Foretravel created stress when at places where we had no access to electricity via "the plug"... Mostly in parks where there were generator time restrictions, like our National Park experiences last year. We found we had so much fun experiencing the experience that we couldn't get enough energy back into the three 8D Gel batteries by the time we got back to the coach to consecutively carry us over multiple days with the generator time limits set by the campgrounds. Recall, we could only use 50% of the batteries capacity! With limited Solar and loads of shade it wasn't cutting it... So we really had to minimize our energy usage substantially once the curfew hit, which meant turning the Samsung Fidge off at night, and really cutting back energy use after dark.

Also, when underway driving, any significant AC power usage like defrosting food, convection microwave, coffee maker, crockpot, Ninja Foodie usage (yeah Kristen's used several at the same time while I'm driving) required the generator to be running, the 8D's just ran down way to quickly...

BTW, we really didn't like hearing the generator running...

So, in early 2020, over the spring we decided to "invest" in energy... The three 8D's were almost at the end of useful life, and the Inverter started acting up. We anticipate using this coach for at least another 10+ years. So, buying lead-acid batteries again seemed like a dumb idea. If you consider all the merits of lithium vs lead-acid in totality the up front cost of lithium does make sense over the long-haul.

We "invested" in six Battleborn GC2 100 amp hour batteries, plus a new hybrid Inverter (Victron) and a 60 amp Sterling Battery to Battery Charger, (B2B).

Our experiences this year:
No more "ENERGY ANXIETY" ! The batteries work perfect, the big generator charges the Lithium's very quickly if needed, no long final charging to get to Float Voltage to complete the charge... We could use all 600 AH of energy if needed, 100% of the Battleborn battery capacity... We've never gone below 65% charge... We never use the generator while driving and "cooking" anymore, the Sterling B2B charger utilizes the alternator to replenish the battery bank while underway.

Currently we are upgrading the Solar PV this winter with new Solar panels, (seven 325 watt 90 cell panels) and three Victron MPPT Charge Controllers which we calculate will allow us even more flexibility. We do not believe we'll need the Sterling B2B charger while underway. As well as significantly limiting the generator usage while dry-camping and more energy while driveway surfing...

Secondary benefits of the investment are that the Victron hybrid Inverter allows us to "driveway surf" at our friends and kid' homes and not POP the 15 amps of electric we get... The new Furion AC's also let us power one AC on the 15 amp circuit, a really nice benefit!

So in conclusion:
Yes, it's a big investment up front. We chose 600 AH due to the Samsung Residential Fridge and our consumption model... You might be able to use less battery. Our stock 18 year old Inverter (2500 watt) died, so the Victron or similar hybrid Inverter made sense. You don't need a lot of Solar... However, adding Solar enables the Federal Tax Credit, nice savings and greater flexibility!

It all works very nicely, and there are many ways to "skin the cat". DIY, or hire a professional. We were very fortunate to "copy" Roger's detailed schematic of his installation. It's worked out very well! Thanks Roger!!!

There are many configurations out there that others also have successfully used, the lithium battery technology is very safe, less weight, less space, and beneficial. No complaints and a happy wife who loves to cook and be cool.

Jeff & Kristen

Another vote for Lithium

Re: Lithium battery lifepo4 batteries yes or no

Reply #8 – December 15, 2020, 09:53:24 am

I agree with all of the arguments for LifePo4 batteries. I use 400ah of Battleborn's myself and would make the same choice again. However, I would not on count using 100% of their rated capacity. Maybe my Magnum Inverter/Battery Management Kit doesn't measure them accurately, but I know that if I try to run the microwave or other large loads with them below about 10% their internal BMS will shut them down. I try to stay above 20% for that reason, which is still huge advantage over lead acid (gel, agm or conventional).

Re: Lithium battery lifepo4 batteries yes or no

Reply #9 – December 15, 2020, 10:16:09 pm

I have had the Battle Born batteries for nearly 3 years now (4x100 amp hour) and love them. If you boondock, I would highly recommend them.

Re: Lithium battery lifepo4 batteries yes or no

Reply #10 – March 23, 2021, 06:57:57 pm

Well bit the big one and bought knock off. Lynx 120 ah cells. $580 per 12v set. Got 5 sets for 600 amp hours of power. 1 bms 200 amp continues draw and charge, my xantrex will only put out max of 120 that I see. I have them setup as 5p 4s to make 600ah at 12v. So you know I charge to 14.3 and get 595ah discharge before recharge. At the moment I am using xantrex freedom 2500 for basic recharge. 2 -5 hours to 13.4 float which is around 80 to 85% SOC and when I want full charge I have a lifepo4 charger to top.
Way btter than my 4 8d mk batteries could do. Happy so far.

Re: Lithium battery lifepo4 batteries yes or no

Reply #11 – March 23, 2021, 11:44:58 pm

Yes the main reason I bought my particular coach was because the previous owner, rich, went to AM solar and put in 600 amp hours of victron lithium ion batteries plus a victron multiplus inverter charger added to the solar system, and a victron mppt controller their largest one along with the color control and other components that makes it a high quality system. It's been running fine now for years and will run fine for many more year's.
There's two schools of thought on it of course. One is that lead acid batteries are fine give good performance at a great price point. If you just look at it price alone then let acid seems like the best choice. When you factor in performance versus price let acid loses out quite a bit especially when you add the time component. And of course the other great reason to go with lithium is the weight component. They weigh a whole lot less. That means not only more beer in the storage bays for other toys, and a whole lot less on the back when it comes time to move them around and replace them. I think my lithium system will be running great for the next owner of my coach sometime in the future. I never shut my inverter off. I have a fully electric coach other than the aqua Hot. I haven't done a ton of boondocking yet but I expect that I can go multiple days without worrying about it. It's a great system.

Re: Lithium battery lifepo4 batteries yes or no

Reply #12 – June 08, 2021, 01:00:38 pm

Well all I have not posted in awhile. I played with this same topic for many months. My MK Gel 8Ds would not hold a charge for more than a couple of days with main battery switch off. I break ground. I chose the cheaper way out and bought 20 120ah 3.2v Lynx cells
and a 200amp BMS from lynx also. I played with them in my shop for a few weeks while deciding and learning all of the aspects of
LiFePo 4 technology. I ended up with a 5P 4S setup. 5 cells at 3.2v and 4 banks in series for 12.8v nominal. 14.4 100% SOC which comes to 600 amp hours usable, way more than lead acid. I spent $3075 plus all of my time and little crap I used out of my shop. I have discharged them over a 3.5 day period to 12.9v and genset with xantrex 458 1500watt inverter charger recharged to 14.3 in 4 hours. AGM or GEL would have 2 to 3 times longer and would not have lasted but may 1 day. Refrigerator on A/C and a few lights and all of the shadow power consumers of FOT. I am retiring in the next 12 months and going to buy another 600 AH set for 1200 total.
Installing new penguins and a modern inverter that will consume less power, before I quit. So far I'm sold.

Re: Lithium battery lifepo4 batteries yes or no

Reply #13 – June 26, 2021, 01:21:31 pm

Quote from: alan1958 – June 08, 2021, 01:00:38 pm

I am retiring in the next 12 months and going to buy another 600 AH set for 1200 total.

Look at making a 48 volt bank with the LifeP04 batteries. Lots of advantages over 12v.

Re: Lithium battery lifepo4 batteries yes or no

Reply #14 – June 26, 2021, 01:36:29 pm

Quote from: Matt Childs – June 26, 2021, 01:21:31 pm

Look at making a 48 volt bank with the LifeP04 batteries. Lots of advantages over 12v.

What big advantage? How are you going to charge them?

Re: Lithium battery lifepo4 batteries yes or no

Reply #15 – June 26, 2021, 01:56:12 pm

Our Midnite Classic 150 will charge up to a 72 volt battery bank. 150V rating goes up to 198 volts with 48 volt battery bank. Has worked perfectly for us since 2008.
Comparison: Best 60A+ MPPT Solar Charge Controllers — Clean Energy Reviews

Pierce

Re: Lithium battery lifepo4 batteries yes or no

Reply #16 – June 26, 2021, 02:15:24 pm

For me it is $$ vs. hrs. spent boondocking x yrs left rv'ing. $89 Costco golf carts do just fine. I don't get bragging rights I guess.

Re: Lithium battery lifepo4 batteries yes or no

Reply #17 – June 26, 2021, 02:37:17 pm

Well the solar charger deal is all well and fine till you have a couple of days without sun. Also what's the inefficiency of going from 48v back to 12 volt for your lights a such. Just seem like a big exercise for not a lot of gain. But that's just me!

Re: Lithium battery lifepo4 batteries yes or no

Reply #18 – June 26, 2021, 02:43:31 pm

Quote from: Twig – June 26, 2021, 02:15:24 pm

For me it is $$ vs. hrs. spent boondocking x yrs left rv'ing. $89 Costco golf carts do just fine. I don't get bragging rights I guess.

Batteries for the proletariat works for us. If our house batteries run out of life, it's CL or Marketplace for the deals. So far, our AGMs have cost $16/yr and have worked better/longer than I could have imagined. Still going strong. What more could we have asked for?

Still charges on a cloudy day, just not as fast.

Pierce

Re: Lithium battery lifepo4 batteries yes or no

Reply #19 – June 26, 2021, 04:20:57 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – June 26, 2021, 02:43:31 pm

So far, our AGMs have cost $16/yr and have worked better/longer than I could have imagined. Still going strong. What more could we have asked for?
Pierce

Exactly. Spend 2 grand on lithiums, then factor in all the days you are plugged in at some rv park and add it to your investment. Prit-ty pricey glamping. Even when I stay in the parks in Mexico I run off my golf carts because juice is expensive there. My electric bill for 3 months in Mazatlan was 3.50.

As an aside, you ever notice nobody ever buys 3 or 5 lithiums? Always 4, 6, or 8. Go figger.

Re: Lithium battery lifepo4 batteries yes or no

Reply #20 – June 26, 2021, 04:55:03 pm

Quote from: Twig – June 26, 2021, 04:20:57 pm

Exactly. Spend 2 grand on lithiums, then factor in all the days you are plugged in at some rv park and add it to your investment. Prit-ty pricey glamping. Even when I stay in the parks in Mexico I run off my golf carts because juice is expensive there. My electric bill for 3 months in Mazatlan was 3.50.

As an aside, you ever notice nobody ever buys 3 or 5 lithiums? Always 4, 6, or 8. Go figger.

I bought 3 lithium's 8d size 200 ahr.

Re: Lithium battery lifepo4 batteries yes or no

Reply #21 – June 26, 2021, 10:45:36 pm

No one is forcing you to use LiFePO4 batteries or any other battery type for that matter. Just because you don't like them or don't want to use them or don't understand the benefits it doesn't mean that those of us who choose to do so are wrong. Do what makes best sense to you. How you use your coach, your budget, how long you expect to use your coach all figure in. It is not a one size fits all solution. But for some it makes good sense.

Re: Lithium battery lifepo4 batteries yes or no

Reply #22 – June 26, 2021, 10:57:49 pm

Don't think many would pass up lithium if the price were lower. Budget constraints dictate, for what ever reason, what many are willing to spend on a battery bank. Some may even lost batteries because of charging failure, etc. I want them but I want them cheap, really cheap.

~~Pierce~~ Frugal Fred