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Topic: My bulkhead experience (Read 6390 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: My bulkhead experience

Reply #25
Paul:

Here's the link to my blulkhead issues.  That should give you a good feel for the exactly what to look for just ahead of the rear wheels.  If I remember right, I took a quick look under your coach when you parked in front of the house when on your way home.  As I recall, I didn't see the kind of failure that I had when these pictures were taken.

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Hope all is well buddy.
Russell
'99 U320 CAI 40ft w/Xtreme Full Body Paint
Baton Rouge

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Re: My bulkhead experience

Reply #26
Yo, Russel!  Thanks!
 
After we left you last April we we went to Nac where, among other things, MOT found some minor repairs needed on the bulkheads.
 
But, being an unreconstituted structural steel draftsman '52 - '62 in another life in Akron, Ohio, I don't hold truck with bolted connections that are not thru bolts.  I might have to grit my teeth and accept something as tiny as 3/8 inch diameter, but I think I see bulkhead thru bolts in my future.
 
Being in the San Francisco Bay Area currently, I'm sorry time and commitments do not allow next week's route to El Centro, CA to go thru Baton Rouge...  Baton Rouge: Next year for sure!

best, paul
 
PS> Please give my warm regards to your lovely bride....
___
 
"Thriving not surviving" <(*¿*)>
Paul Schaye (at 2008 NYC Marathon) "Life is what happens when you are doing other things!" "If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much room!"
See our blog at LazyDazers.com
 
Quote
Here's the link to my blulkhead issues.  That should give you a good feel for the exactly what to look for just ahead of the rear wheels.  If I remember right, I took a quick look under your coach when you parked in front of the house when on your way home.  As I recall, I didn't see the kind of failure that I had when these pictures were taken.
1999 U320 40' 1200 watts on roof. 12cf AC/DC Cold plate fridge/freezer. VMS 240 CL Honda Element

Re: My bulkhead experience

Reply #27
Double nut the Rolok and continue it's journey toward the center of the coach.
Brett Wolfe
I think the light just went on in my brain.  Sounds as though the original Rolok bolts are long enough to penetrate 2 sides of the frame tubing.  Is that correct?  I have not extracted one and makes a lot more sense if it does do that.  I thought they were only long enough to go through one side of the frame tube.

The other unanswered question, but maybe I should be patient, can the Rolok bolts be reused if it is in a place where a frame member prevents a thru-bolt? (Assuming the metal tube and bolt are not rusted)
Jerry Whiteaker former owner 96 U270  36' #4831 Austin,TX-Owner Mods LCD TV w/front cabinet rebuild - LCD TV bedroom - Dual Central AC, either can cool coach w 30 amp - Skylights at roof AC openings - Drop ceiling for ducting of AC - Shower skylight white gelcoat/wood/epoxy frame - Air Springs/Shocks replaced - 2014 CRV - 8K Home Solar - Chevy Volt

Re: My bulkhead experience

Reply #28
Correct.  The Roloks are long enough that they stick THROUGH the angle and 1 1/2" box beam and the threads are sufficiently long for one to double nut and run the remains of the broken bolt toward the center of the coach. Penetrating oil on both ends of broken bolts made for 100% removal on any I attempted to remove.

And, I have not considered reusing the Rolok-style bolt.  If you are under there anyway with drill and have a supply of the 1 3/8" waterproof plugs to reseal the bottom FG part, I would absolutely through bolt replacements.  It is just not that much additional work.

Brett Wolfe
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: My bulkhead experience

Reply #29
What I learned today, installing new bolts - I added two new ones so far.  The broken rolox's were too rusted to get them double nutted so I ended up just drilling new holes.  In the future I won't even bother trying to get the broken ones out.  But, I think it will be worth my while to try to back out some of the un-broken ones.  If I can get them out, it's a piece of cake to then enlarge the hole and put in the bolts per Brett's instructions.
1996 U270
Build #4846

Re: My bulkhead experience

Reply #30

The only item I am aware of that is unique to Foretravel (vs other quality coaches of the same age) is to check the front and rear bulkheads. See Message #38614.

A dumb question, what is being referenced as the front and rear bulkheads? In the cabin, the most forward "wall" or bulkhead is the one for the head.  In the underneath storage areas, I presume it would be the most forward "wall" or bulkhead.

Similar for the rear.  In the cabin, the most rear "wall" or bulkhead is the one between the bedroom and the bathroom.  Similarly for the one in the underneath storage.

So to ensure I understand correctly and inspect the correct ones, which ones being referenced as the front and rear bulkheads?

BTW, where is the coach-- one of us may be familiar with it.
Brett Wolfe

It is in the Oklahoma City, OK area.
Morris and Janice
1997 U270 36'

Re: My bulkhead experience

Reply #31
Torqued the bulkhead bolts today,  19 front, 17 rear.  Right 2 in front were broken and 2 in the rear on the right side but not together.  All broken a long time ago.  There was also one in the front not broken, but threads in the frame stripped.  Had an extra bolt nearby.  Will do the fix when I can.

Is the correct torque for the front bulkhead bolts 19 inch-pounds and the correct torque for the rear bulkhead bolts 17 inch-pounds? I want to ensure I am understanding it correctly.

Thank you very much.
Morris and Janice
1997 U270 36'

Re: My bulkhead experience

Reply #32
Basketball Fan,
 
I'd like to suggest that you read the very last post in that topic first.  Then begin reading the others.  The last post tells you where the bulkheads are located.
 
And ---- are we helping you with all of our input?

I have not been able to do this inspection yet, but plan to do it.  I think I now understand where to look.  I do not recall seeing the gap as is shown in the third picture.  But I wasn't looking for these issues either.

From the earlier message string, it appears the correct torque for the front bolts is 19 (inch-pounds?) and for the rear bolts is 17 (inch-pounds?).  I want to confirm it is inch-pounds.

Yes, the input is helping very much.  I wish I could devote much more time checking these things out than I have been able to do so far.  But everyone's comments are helping very much.  Plus this indicates this forum has a great wealth of knowledge concerning these MHs and people are willing and eager to help anyone out if they can.  That is a GREAT benefit.  I belong to a similar group for my motorcycle and they have been invaluable to me for normal maintenance guidance as well as installation of upgrades to my bike.  I anticipate the people here on this forum are very similar.

The current owner had a RV dealer/shop check out the home portion this fall.  It appears everything checked out fine except that they had apparently not winterized it properly last fall and had to replace the plumbing on it due to freeze damage. (Her husband was very ill and passed away a few months ago.)

While I realize this inspection probably missed some things, it also indicates that at least portions of it were checked out.  We do plan to have the drive train checked out by a repair shop this week (hopefully).

Everything we have seen so far indicates this coach has been very well maintained over the years.  I was actually surprised at how clean the engine compartment is.  I expected to see oily surfaces and I did not see any oily surfaces anywhere in the engine compartment.
Morris and Janice
1997 U270 36'

Re: My bulkhead experience

Reply #33
ncaabbfan
Your Question, "Is the correct torque for the front bulkhead bolts 19 inch-pounds and the correct torque for the rear bulkhead bolts 17 inch-pounds?"
No. The correct  Rolok Bolt check torque value is 250 INCH-POUNDS.  See Brett's excellent summary at Bulkhead Repair-- A Comprehensive Look 
19 and 17 are the number of bolts that Jerry had across the full length of his front and rear bulkhead, 3 inch angle irons.
Keep asking questions where you have any doubt.
Neal
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Neal (& Brenda) Pillsbury
'02 U320 SPEC, 4200, DGFE, Build #5984
'04 Gold Wing
'07 Featherlite 24'
'14 Jeep Grand Cherokee Summit
MC #14494
Exeter, NH & LaBelle FL
Quality makes the Heart Soar long after Price is Forgotten

Re: My bulkhead experience

Reply #34
ncaabbfan
Your Question, "Is the correct torque for the front bulkhead bolts 19 inch-pounds and the correct torque for the rear bulkhead bolts 17 inch-pounds?"
No. The correct  Rolok Bolt check torque value is 250 INCH-POUNDS.  See Brett's excellent summary at Bulkhead Repair-- A Comprehensive Look 
19 and 17 are the number of bolts that Jerry had across the full length of his front and rear bulkhead, 3 inch angle irons.
Keep asking questions where you have any doubt.
Neal

Thank you very much!  I thought the 17 and 19 could not be inch-pounds. But I wanted to make sure I understood the correct torque.  So all of these bolts (front and rear) should be 250 inch-pounds.
Morris and Janice
1997 U270 36'

Re: My bulkhead experience

Reply #35
Yes. 250 inch-lbs.

What you will likely find is that they either break off with little more than finger torque (i.e. are broken) or hold good.

I have run into very few that were loose, but would torque up.

Brett Wolfe
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: My bulkhead experience

Reply #36
Yes. 250 inch-lbs.

What you will likely find is that they either break off with little more than finger torque (i.e. are broken) or hold good.

I have run into very few that were loose, but would torque up.

Brett Wolfe

I did a visual check today of the two bulkheads on the MH we are strongly considering purchasing.  I laid down on on each side of the MH and visually checked and sighted down each bulkhead.  I did not see any signs of rust nor any distortion or swelling of either bulkhead.  It appears that all the bolts are in place.

I did not do a torque check of the bolts.

Since I did not see any signs of rust and presuming the bolts check out ok with the torque check, what is recommended be  done to protect the bolts and joints in the future to prevent any rust damage or distortion?

Thank you very much.

Morris
Morris and Janice
1997 U270 36'

Re: My bulkhead experience

Reply #37
Morris,

If no distortion and no rust, the worse case is that you will have a few broken bolts to replace.  No big deal.

When that is done, I would recommend using a wire brush on a drill to clean the area from just onto the white fiberglass "belly" around to and including the vertical part of the angle beam where you see the bolts (i.e. to the top of the vertical beam where you see the bolt heads).

Then mask off the top half of the heads of the bolts (so you could still get a socket/wrench on the bolt) and mask off the FG floor (leave 1/2" or so of floor exposed). Spray with automotive undercoating.  One can will easily do both front and back beam areas.

I suspect a reasonable amount of the damage is being done by water migrating in along the threads of the bolts (the angle beam is drilled larger than the bolt threads so that the bolt will torque to the box beam inboard of the angle beam) every time a coach is driven in rain. 

Brett
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: My bulkhead experience

Reply #38
Yes. 250 inch-lbs.

What you will likely find is that they either break off with little more than finger torque (i.e. are broken) or hold good.

I have run into very few that were loose, but would torque up.

Brett Wolfe

I believe 250 inch-pounds equates to 20.83 foot-pounds (250/12= 20.833333).  Have I understood it correctly? I hope I can check the torque of the bolts tomorrow...if the weather is OK.  Thank you very much.
Morris and Janice
1997 U270 36'

Re: My bulkhead experience

Reply #39
Seems as though we are beating a dead horse trying to figure out why the bolts break.
Basically it is caused by the same reason that 10 year old firetrucks, stored inside, with extremely low mileage, rust out.  Water from washing get into places it would not normally get into, and then it just sets there until it evaporates and the rust process has started.  And I believe there have been some fixes offered here on the forum to prevent that from happening.
1994 U225
build #4514

Re: My bulkhead experience

Reply #40
Morris,

If no distortion and no rust, the worse case is that you will have a few broken bolts to replace.  No big deal.

When that is done, I would recommend using a wire brush on a drill to clean the area from just onto the white fiberglass "belly" around to and including the vertical part of the angle beam where you see the bolts (i.e. to the top of the vertical beam where you see the bolt heads).

Then mask off the top half of the heads of the bolts (so you could still get a socket/wrench on the bolt) and mask off the FG floor (leave 1/2" or so of floor exposed). Spray with automotive undercoating.  One can will easily do both front and back beam areas.

I suspect a reasonable amount of the damage is being done by water migrating in along the threads of the bolts (the angle beam is drilled larger than the bolt threads so that the bolt will torque to the box beam inboard of the angle beam) every time a coach is driven in rain. 

Brett

We brought our MH to our house today.  I wanted to check the bulkhead bolts as one of my very first things.  I used approx. 21 foot-pounds as the criteria (I believe 250 inch-pounds converts to 20.833 foot-pounds.) I checked all the bolts on the front bulkhead, they were all tight with the 20-25 foot-pounds reading on my torque wrench.  I then checked all the bolts on the rear bulkhead.  All bolts except for 2 or 3 were tight with the 20-25 foot-pounds reading on my torque wrench.  The 2 or 3 would rotate at approx. 15 foot-pounds but they did not seem to get any tighter than the approx. 15 foot-pounds reading. they just continued to rotate.  They did not fall out and I did not see any sign of rust on them.

In fact, I did not see any sign of rust nor distortion of the angle frame anywhere on either of the 2 bulkheads.

What do you think I should do concerning the 2 or 3 bolts that rotated at approx. 15 foot-pounds?

Do you think I should use a brush of some type to clean around the bolts to prepare for applying the automotive undercoating?

Thank you.
Morris and Janice
1997 U270 36'

Re: My bulkhead experience

Reply #41
According to James at Xtreme, leave them alone!
Tim Fiedler    2025 LTV Unity MBL on Order
2000 Chevy Tracker 2 Door Convertible 4WD Now lifted 4.5"
1985 Citroen 2CV6 Charleston
Murphy Rebel on wheels with 175HP Titan
Cessna P337
1980 48' Westport MY (!/4 Share)

Re: My bulkhead experience

Reply #42
My guess would be they're stripped out, you might be able to work them out and install the new bolts with nuts.  Bot of they're not side by side, I wouldn't worry about it.  Others opinions may differ.
1996 U270
Build #4846

Re: My bulkhead experience

Reply #43
The conservative answer, particularly if the ones that will not torque up are near each other is to remove, drill to 3/8" and thru bolt them.

Brett Wolfe
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: My bulkhead experience

Reply #44
Earlier in this thread were comments on the Rolok bolts being way too to hard to drill the center out.
The Rolok bolts can be drilled out with a good HSS drill bit.
I have 5 bolt heads from the rear bulkhead which came out with about 5 threads and a rusty break where bolt entered 1.5 inch square tube. I put one in the vise and drilled out the center with an 11/64 bit - took less then one minute, however, when the drill bit reached the bolt head it started making noises. These bolts are hard on the outside layer but much less hard on the inside by design (I am a retired Mechanical Engineer).

I have not yet attempted to to remove a broken stud by drilling and using an easy out. Doing this would mean I could replace broken bolts without making 1 3/8 holes in fiberglass belly cover.

Wyatt
96 U320 40 WTFE, build 4943
84 Toyota Supra towd
2015 Jeep Wrangler towd
Victoria, BC, Canada

Re: My bulkhead experience

Reply #45
Here is what I found out when repairing my bulkheads on my 96 36' U270.  First the joints had no separation and only a little rust on the metal angle which I wire brushed off.  I found 4 bolts on the rear bulkhead that were broken at the usual 3 or 4 threads from the head.  Three were at the passenger side end and one about 6 bolts in from the right side on the rear.  The front bulkhead had 2 bolts broken at the end of the angle on the passenger side.  I decided not to remove any of the bolts that passed the torque test, but a couple of bolts did back out with the torque test, so I removed them and replaced with 3/8" grade 8 bolts.  Most of the others  I drilled a new hole alongside the broken bolt.  I also installed new bolts in between every 2nd and 3rd bolt that was not broken. I made 1 1/4 x 1 1/4 x 1/8 backing plates for the locking nuts. There was one place where I used the double nut procedure to remove a broken bolt.  That was difficult as it was well rusted and required an overnight application of rust buster.  I really needed to get that one out as it was near the end of the angle and the only spot for a replacement.  In another post I mentioned that I had some 1 1/2 x 3" tubing in the frame of the basement floor behind front angle.  That was not the case as I found out when drilling for new bolts.  It really was 2 pieces of 1 1/2 tubing back to back.  It did not extend all the way to the ends  but almost.  I had to use 4" long bolts where it was doubled.  I also found a short section at the rear with doubled 1 1/2 on the drivers side at the utility compartment.  Most of the bottom panel at the rear just had one piece of 1 1/2, so 3" bolts for that.  I'm not sure why there is 2 pieces at the front unless it is extra support for the large propane tank.  At the ends of the angle the original bolt went into the hollow part of the metal tube that runs fore and aft down the sides.  All I could do was install a new bolt inboard a little beside that tube.  I also predrilled a  piece of hardwood (maple) on a drill press to use as a guide in drilling the new holes.  I had to shape it a little as metal angle is not exactly 90 degrees on the inside.  I clamped it vertically to the angle where I wanted a new hole.  Had to wing it in a couple of places where something was in the way and I couldn't use the guide.

Before I started any of this, I cleaned and lightly sanded the fiberglass skin near the bulkheads with the intention of re-fiberglassing the holes that have to be made for the nuts.  I drilled a couple of holes with a hole saw and didn't like it for fear of penetrating a tank.  I switched to a Rotozip tool and made small rectangular holes in the fiberglass skin.  That worked well as the bit isn't long enough to go through the upper skin.  I used a small long 1/4" diameter magnet to locate the metal behind the fiberglass.  I could go right up to the metal with the rotozip if needed and around any of the protruding old bolts.  I found a couple of places at the rear bulkhead where there was a piece of 3/4" thick plywood in addition to the foam.  One was at the right side where the water pump and pressure tank are located.  I think it is there for bolting down the water pump.  It had been wet but was not rotten.  The rotozip made it easy to remove enough plywood for the nut and bolt.  I had to go slow though so as not to break the bit.  The other piece of plywood was under the utility storage area next to the fresh water tank with nothing bolted to it and it was like new.  After the bolts were in I foamed the cavity around the nuts.  I haven't done the fiberglassing yet, waiting for good weather and time permitting.

Most of the broken bolts are at the curb side, Maybe water runs to that side because the curb side is usually lower.  Also the fresh water tank overflow is on that side at the rear.  I plan to undercoat the angle and spray the joint next to the angle with Corrosion X HD once a year.  Also maybe relocate/or extend the fresh water tank overflow. 

Think about this, the basement compartments seem to be built like a deep one shelf bookcase with a plank at the top and bottom and 4 vertical planks in the middle with no lateral bracing.  A bookcase would normally have a back made of plywood or solid wood for lateral bracing.  In this case it seems like the only lateral support is from the metal at the ends which is part of the wheel suspension.  I suppose the tanks could provide a little lateral support.  There is a lot of weight down there if the tanks are full, along with the batteries, tools and all the other stuff we carry.  When we step on the brakes it all wants to move forward or a little bit aft during acceleration.  Maybe that is helping to break the bolts.  I also notice that there is a row of these same bolts across the bottom at each of the inner bulkheads.  I didn't do the torque test on them or notice any missing.  My bolt man said that my bolts are not Rolok as Rolok has a trilob slightly spiral shape to the threads.  The 2 unbroken ones I removed are round and threaded to the point on the end and are hardened.  They will form threads when screwed into a softer metal such as mild steel. 

I checked all the welds I could see for cracks and didn't find any, did find a leaking shock.  Thanks to Brett Wolfe and all the others who provided advice about this problem. 
Jerry Whiteaker former owner 96 U270  36' #4831 Austin,TX-Owner Mods LCD TV w/front cabinet rebuild - LCD TV bedroom - Dual Central AC, either can cool coach w 30 amp - Skylights at roof AC openings - Drop ceiling for ducting of AC - Shower skylight white gelcoat/wood/epoxy frame - Air Springs/Shocks replaced - 2014 CRV - 8K Home Solar - Chevy Volt

Re: My bulkhead experience

Reply #46
A couple weeks ago, I torque tested the bolts on my bulkheads.
Like yours, my bulkheads show no separation and little rust on the metal angle. 
Like yours, three failed bolts on the rear bulkhead were at the passenger side end. and I wonder if that is just a coincidence.
I wonder how many others have three bolts on the rear at the passenger side end that have failed?

My front bulkhead had no bolts that failed the torque test while the rear bulkhead had 7 bolts that failed, including one that already had another bolt installed a quarter inch away.
I had one loose bolt at the driver side end on the rear. It torqued OK when I removed and reinstalled it. I noticed that it did not appear to be a ROLOK bolt.

Wyatt
96 U320 40 WTFE, build 4943
84 Toyota Supra towd
2015 Jeep Wrangler towd
Victoria, BC, Canada

Re: My bulkhead experience

Reply #47
A lot of discussion on bulkhead repairs..FOT and MOT check only visual. IF no separation and very little rust they will not torque.

FWIW.

We are only strangers until we meet; however, some of us are stranger than others

Re: My bulkhead experience

Reply #48
Well, here is my experience at MOT for my Bulkhead inspection/repair -
 
From today's invoice as I picked up the coach
 
"Seal/Clean/Check Bulkhead and Bolts -
 
"Drilled and installed two new bolts to replace two missing bolts, cleaned bulkhead. Aluminum strip underneath was falling down,  - reattached. Painted and sealed bottom edge of bulkhead and aluminum strip"
 
Total labor Charges - $84.00
 
Total parts - Bolts and Paint - $6.71
 
I don't think I will be selling the coach any time soon for fear of bulkhead issues or cost...:-)
 
Mike Rodgers did say if they see significant issues - they do not attempt repair and refer the client to FOT since they do not want to get into major bulkhead repairs due to liability concerns.
Tim Fiedler    2025 LTV Unity MBL on Order
2000 Chevy Tracker 2 Door Convertible 4WD Now lifted 4.5"
1985 Citroen 2CV6 Charleston
Murphy Rebel on wheels with 175HP Titan
Cessna P337
1980 48' Westport MY (!/4 Share)

Re: My bulkhead experience

Reply #49
Tim,

Seems like a very reasonable charge.

To All:

I can understand why the factory bolted the sections together but would not it make more sense to weld the sections for repair rather than re-bolt them? I assume that this is all mild steel. 
John Cooper
'91 GV 36'
Oshkosh chassis
Cat 3208T 300HP