bulkhead blues

Topic: bulkhead blues (Read 12047 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: bulkhead blues

Reply #125 – July 12, 2012, 07:53:51 am

Quote from: Jeff Savournin – July 12, 2012, 01:22:32 am

Thanks Neil...sure seems it is time to put this topic to rest...Couldn't find the one before on bulkhead seperation, but believe it had thousand of hits also...

Yes!!!

However, the new owners and foreforums members will want to seek advice and information about their rig's issues on this topic. I think it should be readily available to all new & prospective owners/members. Just my thought on this as I have taken the advice given and had Forrest repaired at Xtreme.
Peter

Re: bulkhead blues

Reply #126 – July 12, 2012, 08:20:10 am

Quote from: Jeff Savournin – July 12, 2012, 01:22:32 am

Thanks Neil...sure seems it is time to put this topic to rest...Couldn't find the one before on bulkhead seperation, but believe it had thousand of hits also...

It's one of the sticky topics at the top of this board (Tech Talk) Bulkhead Repair-- A Comprehensive Look

And thanks Neal. Karma to you!

Michelle

Re: bulkhead blues

Reply #127 – July 12, 2012, 08:23:30 am

Neal,

Thanks, perfect summary. Hope this quells All the recent noise.

Re: bulkhead blues

Reply #128 – July 12, 2012, 10:15:42 am

Quote from: Neal Pillsbury – July 12, 2012, 01:00:26 am

Talk about going viral! Over 2100 hits in less than nine days?
Periodically new bulkhead participants stroke the alarm bells and create new theories and tangents to the bulkhead issue.
It's always possible (in making mountains out of molehills?) to lose sight of what is important to the general Foretravel population!
We could certainly make the well documented bulkhead issue into something weird enough to COMPLETELY scare away ALL potential future Foretravel buyers and cause ALL current owners to suffer irreparable sleep deprivation.
OR, we could logically, review the body of evidence and reasonably conclude that we have 99% or more of the information that we need to be perfectly comfortable.
SPECIFICALLY:
1. The bulkhead issue is easy to detect, should logically be a part of any pre-purchase body of wisdom, and that routine inspection (250 in-lb. torque with a qualified tool) must be a part of each UNIHOME/UNICOACH owner's ongoing periodic maintenance inspection.
2. We have heard from Foretravel, and their guidance is reasonable and perfectly understandable. Bulkhead Separation Can we or should we reasonably expect any more?
What's ROOT CAUSE IMPORTANT? We know that:
a. moisture/water aggravates the issue,
b. chlorides in the form of (from most to least severe) liquid deicers, rock salt and salt air aggravate the issue.
c. That dissimilar metals aggravate the issue (galvanic corrosion)
d. Any coaches ever operated north of I-20 are automatically suspect and bear closer inspection/watching, especially if they were operated there between the months of October and May. http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10625.0;attach=1179
e. If iron oxide (rust swelling) is present in the joint, the loose iron oxide must be removed and the surface area must be neutralized (eg. with phosphoric acid to turn the red iron oxide to black iron oxide (stable). This stops the oxidation, preserving and protecting the area prior to undercoating or otherwise protecting the bulkhead joint.
4. Then, thanks to Brett Wolfe's experience and wisdom, we know that once a bulkhead fastener failure is detected, there exists a comprehensive, tried and proven set of guidance on how to address the failure. Bulkhead Separation Owners that have done so (or have had FOT, MOT or Xtreme address the bulkheads) have peace of mind and VERY SOUND COACHES.

It isn't any more daunting than that and the bulkhead design should be a strong Foretravel selling point instead of the negative mystery that seems to be pursued in repeating, cyclical fashion.
The Foreforums search feature yields a tremendous wealth of knowledge on the bulkhead issue (as well as speculation).
Barry Beam's information condenses the vast wealth of FT knowledge into an easily searchable form that weeds out much of the chaff.
But reinventing the issue every few months doesn't create any improvement in the root cause understanding nor the action plan to address the presence of the issue.
As Brett has said, "It wasn't a fun project, but neither was it mechanically challenging nor expensive."
I would contend that it was a fun (DIY) project (for me), the repair has been easy to periodically re inspect and the repair has been perfectly stable since 2009.
Just my perspective, and I'm sure that it will not be universal, but I hope that this helps to tone down the severity of the alarm that is being created.
Neal

Very well said, Neal.

Brett

Re: bulkhead blues

Reply #129 – July 12, 2012, 10:21:58 am

Surely there are many here in the forum who have heard more than enough about this topic. There is always the option to skip over it... My take on it is that there are some of us currently in throes of dealing with this very issue that find the topic to be of intense interest! The extent of bulkhead problem on our coach was as bad or worse than any I have heard about, and although I read posts on the topic before we bought the coach (including Brett's sticky post), none of them prepared me for what was to come. I am finally approaching the other side of this tunnel, and although it has been satisfying in some ways to try and meet the challenge with our limited resources, it hasn't been what I would call a fun ride. In spite of that, I remain happy with our having chosen a Foretravel to be our future fulltiming home. When we bought it, I never thought our fulltiming future would be quite so far in the future and that I would long ago have finished the work on my house and sold it. It hasn't happened that way... In the mean time I have been learning the ins and out of our coach from the bottom up, and I mean that litterally!
So to those that have faced the issue and successfully dealt with it, I congratulate you on a job well done! For those that are facing the issue now, please feel free to ask your questions and or share what you have learned. For those that haven't had to face the issue, listen to the preventative maintenance wisdom so ably presented by Brett, Neal, and others so that you don't have deal with the harsher reality that neglect inevitably brings. Finally, for those who grow tired of hearing about it, I can understand that as well but it is easy enough to pass by the topic. I don't think my purpose has ever been to cause alarm or declare that the sky is falling. Sure, when I discovered our bulkhead separation, I was unhappy... unhappy with myself for not educating myself to the point where I could recognize the issue and at least use the information so I could bargain more effectively. What I had read about the process of repairing the area lead me to believe that even if there was an issue, It would just be a bump in the road. The conventional wisdom didn't seem to apply to our coach, as it had been in Texas all of its life and not apparently operated in areas where it was subject to deicing chemicals and other environment insults. The conventional fixes would have been a band aid at best. There are so many good things about Foretravel coaches and this issue is but one negative that good information can neutralize completely.
I for one encourage anyone with information or experience about this issue to post it, as long as it is done as respectfully and as informatively as possible. I can't tell you how great a resource this forum has been to me as I have progressed through this process. Sometimes the exchange of ideas and even speculation as to possible causes and effects have helped me think things through and saved me from making (more) mistakes. Maybe I am being alarmist here, but I think a call to put this topic to rest amounts to applying the "retarder" on the free flow of information and just getting to know people (at least one aspect of them) here in this virtual world. I hope I haven't ruffled anybodies feathers by sharing how I feel about this, but I have been living and breathing (again literally!) this issue for the best part of year now. I am sure that there are many who think I care about nothing else, but I really, sincerely, and passionately look toward more fun stuff! After all, that is why we bought this coach in the first place!
Don

Re: bulkhead blues

Reply #130 – July 12, 2012, 10:55:27 am

Don, keep posting. What I really like about your posts is they aren't just simply an intellectual exercise; they are the real deal. Your work progress reports and photos allow us to see deeply into these rigs. Stay with it. You'll be on the road soon!
jor

Re: bulkhead blues

Reply #131 – July 12, 2012, 11:09:48 am

Well said Don. I also believe that the collective experience of others, not necessarily specific to motorhomes, can lead to innovative preventative maintenance and repair solutions.

Most folks want straightforward, standard solutions to problems and are not interested in knowing what's happening on a micro mechanical or molecular level. For those, a standard documented fix and theory of causation is available as referenced many, many times.

By the same token, there's no call for the proponents of the above fix to be offended when alternate methods are discussed. This discussion has not been "noise, invention or fluff" to me. The fact that the term "it's not if but when" has been used a number of times in reference to this issue makes me believe the search for a simple preventative fix is proper.

Fact is, I believe that Foretravel is a fabulously well built and designed coach, and this typically minor issue pales in comparison to the problems most coach of this vintage suffer.

Chuck

Re: bulkhead blues

Reply #132 – July 12, 2012, 11:26:32 am

I really appreciate all this information on "the bulkhead issue".
In the fall of 2009 I inspected a Foretravel and because of this forum, I examined the bulkheads carefully. Rust jacking was very evident and so I did not purchase that particular Foretravel. At that time this Forum was boiling over with negative bulkhead posts.

I decided to NOT purchase a Foretravel and looked for SOBs for a few months but soon realized that all SOB motorhomes have issues which are far worse then the bulkhead issue. At the same time, the negative bulkhead posts were replaced by more realistic bulkhead posts.

I purchased a Foretravel in April of 2010 after examining the bulkheads which had minor surface rust. Later, torque testing bulkhead bolts caused the three heads on the outside passenger side rear to fall off. The three bolts on the outside passenger side hold nothing, and yet, the bulkhead remains tight. Foretravel motohomes are finesse engineered and they work well.

After two years of ownership, I love this coach and this Forum.

Thanks Neal for your positive post on this bulkhead issue which in my opinion is a minor issue (not a problem).

Re: bulkhead blues

Reply #133 – July 12, 2012, 01:11:12 pm

adding to this list of "happy Foretravellers" regardless of this problem, my coach was a Calif' one and now is going all over the place and living in the "Great white-cold North" and passing over many miles of snow-ice and wet on trips south. So, that said mine should be one of the ones affected soon, but see no evidence of rust or jacking. When I bought it and had it in Mexico for first time I had a Mexican friend of ours crawl under and wire brush the angle and joints as I had a feeling that it had better be sealed off from road crap etc thrown up by tires. He then sprayed (which I allways take with me) a couple cans of the underseal Bitumin all over those areas. Little did I know when joining this Forum a few months later that this was a main topic!!
I have not tried to Torque the bolts yet but will as soon as it cools down here, just to be sure all is ok. If they are bad (which I doubt) Peirce had better finish his job quick as I will be renting his "new Pit" to fix mine.
John H

Re: bulkhead blues

Reply #134 – July 12, 2012, 02:37:48 pm

I know if I keep my coach long-term I'm going to have to address the suspension issues (removed last of the rear shims last year) so my plan is to watch the bolts and perhaps make a pilgrimage to Nac and have the new springs installed and have the bulkheads reinforced at that time. I hate the idea of spending 25% of the value of the coach on these two issues but since it's paid for it will be cheaper to keep this one up than trading up. Might even have the bath remodeled as I hate that 3 foot step up into that tub.

Re: bulkhead blues

Reply #135 – July 12, 2012, 06:38:30 pm

Quote

make a pilgrimage to Nac and have the new springs installed and have the bulkheads reinforced at that time. I hate the idea of spending 25% of the value of the coach on

Dwayne, on our 225, after setting the ride height, I was down to one shim so essentially the same boat your in. The problem is that the Torsilastic is no longer readily available. Some guy whose name escapes me right now (acquaintance of BrettW?) bought all of them that we're available a few years back. I talked to him and I think it was around five grand for a set. However, I'm thinking that once you have the height set correctly you shouldn't have to worry about removing shims for years. That's the way I was looking at it anyhow.
jor

Re: bulkhead blues

Reply #136 – July 12, 2012, 07:54:48 pm

Quote

This post applies only to Safari and Foretravel coaches with the B.F Goodrich Torsilastic Suspension

GREAT news. Navistar, in buying out Monaco/Safari, came across a warehouse with a number of original equipment B.F. Goodrich Torsilastic parts.

Ralph Andrews who owns a Safari coach with torsilastic suspension and is very familiar with this suspension on the Safari products bought the whole lot. He owns Pioneer Metals: Pioneer Metal Works

I've had several people tell me that it would be cheaper to fabricate some bases for air bag supplementation for the existing springs. I haven't totally given up on that idea yet.

Re: bulkhead blues

Reply #137 – July 12, 2012, 09:07:00 pm

John Haygarth, you had mentioned a deflector for preventing overflow from the water tank to the bulkhead. Could you elaborate on how this is done.

Re: bulkhead blues

Reply #138 – July 12, 2012, 09:16:32 pm

Felix,

I took the hint from Barry of Barry & Cindy. I pulled the overflow hose loose from the bulkhead fitting, inserted a 90 degree elbow, attached an additional hose and routed the overflow down the passenger side of the freshwater tank through the floor on to the ground. This completely bypasses getting water on the bulkhead.

Thanks again, Barry

Re: bulkhead blues

Reply #139 – July 12, 2012, 09:25:17 pm

Rudy , is there any problems drilling through the floor and did you use a hole saw? The floor appears to be fairly thick. I was trying to avoid drilling through the floor if possible.

Re: bulkhead blues

Reply #140 – July 12, 2012, 09:43:36 pm

Quote from: fjm502 – July 12, 2012, 09:25:17 pm

Rudy , is there any problems drilling through the floor and did you use a hole saw? The floor appears to be fairly thick. I was trying to avoid drilling through the floor if possible.

The floor of the basement is a sandwich: thin layer of fiberglass, foam core, thin layer of fiberglass. Yes, there are steel beams in the floor, so use a magnet to make sure you know where they are (and are NOT).

Very easy to drill with a hole saw.

Brett

Re: bulkhead blues

Reply #141 – July 12, 2012, 09:46:56 pm

Felix,

I used a paddle bit (inch and a half I think) and drilled the floor, foam insulation and the outer skin. I used 3-M 4200 to seal around the tube at the floor and at the underside skin.

I had to remove the grey carpet panel and placed the hole between the panel and the tank. With the panel re-installed, one can not see the change. Took 30 minutes because I went between the steel frames as suggested by Brett.

Hope this helps.

Re: bulkhead blues

Reply #142 – July 12, 2012, 09:56:02 pm

Rudy,
Thanks, I will look into that solution.

Re: bulkhead blues

Reply #143 – July 13, 2012, 09:38:06 am

Quote

From the incredible Mr. Beam: Torsilastic Suspension Parts

Hey, that's great news that they are still available. Thanks.
jor

Re: bulkhead blues

Reply #144 – July 13, 2012, 05:34:41 pm

Quote from: Dwayne – July 12, 2012, 07:54:48 pm

I've had several people tell me that it would be cheaper to fabricate some bases for air bag supplementation for the existing springs. I haven't totally given up on that idea yet.

I bought a supplemental set of Firestone air bags for my old SOB off Craigslist for $50. Was easy to install and made the handling much better. They have not lost any pressure since I put them on. The rear had started to sag but a few PSI brought I back to stock height.

Pierce

Re: bulkhead blues

Reply #145 – July 13, 2012, 05:37:57 pm

Took the torque wrench when I went to remove the alternator and even though I didn't have time to check all of them, I did check as many as I could reach from either side (4-5). The second one in on the left front and another one three or four further in on the left front are broken. So out of 16-20 tested two are broken and the driver's side front seem to be the bad area. The joint looks fine. I suspect they were broken on installation. I don't see any sign of fresh water tank leaking as it is the only tank in the area but it is in the center. Has anyone tried any of the reverse drill bits to get a bite on the broken bolt to extract it? If I only have two or three, I'd like to remove and replace. I'm going to check them all this weekend.

Re: bulkhead blues

Reply #146 – July 13, 2012, 05:41:06 pm

Pierce: you are talking about a coach that already had airbags right? Fabricating airbags over the torsilastic spring is going to be an interesting project. James Triana told me that he'd heard it has been done but didn't have details.

Re: bulkhead blues

Reply #147 – July 13, 2012, 05:41:57 pm

Dwayne,

They are grade 8, so would not even try to drill from the "outside". The easy way is to drill the access hole through the fiberglass (be sure to have the hole saw appropriate for the plug you will install. Then, after soaking in penetrating oil, double nut and screw the remainder of the bolt toward the "center of the coach".

Brett

Re: bulkhead blues

Reply #148 – July 13, 2012, 07:43:43 pm

I decided to use the ARP stainless steel as per Dons technique and remone the 304 SS as I do not like to use any thing that will possible rust in that area. I had 8 bolts that fell out after applying 20 ft lbs. of torque. I am awaiting the arrival of the ARP SS boltls from summit. They are claimed to exceed grade 8. I did not have any significant separation, only the bolt head that came lose after very little torque, much less than 20 ft #. sorry I do not have an inch # torque wrench. Fortunately I used .o20 aluminum to cover the acess holes, so it can be easily removed.

Re: bulkhead blues

Reply #149 – July 13, 2012, 07:45:02 pm

I've had several people tell me that it would be cheaper to fabricate some bases for air bag supplementation for the existing springs. I haven't totally given up on that idea yet.

Dwayne, there was a U240 36ft that was traded in at MOT by a retired Marine from Louisiana in the fall of 2010 that he had put air bags on the rear. Might to to some one at MOT that might remember it

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