Skip to main content
Topic: New battery setup (was RE: House Batteries boiling) (Read 1462 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: New battery setup (was RE: House Batteries boiling)

Reply #25
Dean,

The .7 VDC or so loss across the diode-based isolator is ONLY important from a theoretical efficency standpoint (you are burning diesel to work the alternator a little harder to turn part of that extra work into heat that is dissipated by the fins of the isolator).

Since the alternator sense wire is on the BATTERY SIDE of the isolator, the batteries are getting exactly the voltage you prescribe.  Yes, the voltage on the alternator side of the isolator is higher, but no battery manufacturer should have any interest in anything but the voltage AT THE BATTERY.

BTW, both manual switches and solenoid-based isolators have zero voltage drop across them.  There are a lot of coaches with solenoid-based isolators with the "both" signal coming from an ignition hot source.  BIRD relays are a more sophisticated example of solenoid-based isolators.
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: New battery setup (was RE: House Batteries boiling)

Reply #26
                               Neal, I think we were posting at the same time.
          I appreciate your very thorough and well thought out post. Pretty much says it all as far as my battery dilemma goes. ??? I concur with you that there are several ways to approach this for the short and long term but none appear optimum as yet.

            I do feel a bit better with the Odyssey engineer telling me it is unnecessary to have 14.7V's to the start batteries, in fact he said with the loss of a volt at the isolator it would be pushing the altenator too hard and would certainly shorten it's lifespan.

              Now, I have not eliminated the thought of seeing if my battery guy would exchange one or the other for a more compatable battery combination. I think both these manufacturers are excellent companies with a great product, but they are just different enough to become an issue when combined for this type of use.

              Thanks again, Dean
Dean & Deirdre

2012 Arctic Fox 22GQ
Was 2003 U270

Re: New battery setup (was RE: House Batteries boiling)

Reply #27
Dean,

The .7 VDC or so loss across the diode-based isolator is ONLY important from a theoretical efficency standpoint (you are burning diesel to work the alternator a little harder to turn part of that extra work into heat that is dissipated by the fins of the isolator).

Since the alternator sense wire is on the BATTERY SIDE of the isolator, the batteries are getting exactly the voltage you prescribe.  Yes, the voltage on the alternator side of the isolator is higher, but no battery manufacturer should have any interest in anything but the voltage AT THE BATTERY.

BTW, both manual switches and solenoid-based isolators have zero voltage drop across them.  There are a lot of coaches with solenoid-based isolators with the "both" signal coming from an ignition hot source.  BIRD relays are a more sophisticated example of solenoid-based isolators.

                            Brett, are you and Neal setting me up for a quiz on Friday? :))  I do have a another question for you, I assume (yeah, I know) that by using a battery switch, that in the event I wanted to run the furnace etc. while traveling I would want to have the switch on so the alternator would help or keep up with d.c. demand? I know the batteries would be fine for a while but I am just thinking about the senarios of utilizing your marine switch idea. And I may be overthinking it.......

                    Thanks, Dean
Dean & Deirdre

2012 Arctic Fox 22GQ
Was 2003 U270

Re: New battery setup (was RE: House Batteries boiling)

Reply #28
Dean,

Yes, if you are running a high amp draw on the house battery such as the furnace(s),  you could leave the switch to ON.  Depends on how long and how many amps.  If the batteries can handle the draw, let the CG's electricity recharge them that night (but, would not run them down below 50% doing that).
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: New battery setup (was RE: House Batteries boiling)

Reply #29
Dean,

Yes, if you are running a high amp draw on the house battery such as the furnace(s),  you could leave the switch to ON.  Depends on how long and how many amps.  If the batteries can handle the draw, let the CG's electricity recharge them that night (but, would not run them down below 50% doing that).
Dean
I second Brett's response.
 
With your dual 8D capacity, routine use of  low-current appliances (computers, dc control boards, parasitic loads) going down the road, are not going to change your house battery bank SOC (State of Charge)  rapidly. 
If you use resistance heating devices (like a toaster, a clothes iron, AC heat strips, infra red heater) or microwaves, or motors (residential refer, furnace blower(s), exhaust fan(s), CPAP machines with humidity heaters) types of loads, then the SOC rate of change will become apparent. 
With reasonable care, you should easily go 8 to 10 hours of driving time without needing to start the generator (preferable to charging the Lifelines at something greater than 14.3 Vdc) or closing the manual battery isolator switch to charge the house bank via the alternator.

Sidenote:
It's an interesting dilemna to have an engineer contradict his own company's technical literature.  Especially when that engineer also thinks that a 0.5 to 0.9 Vdc voltage drop in a power diode is unusual and doubly so if the engineer doesn't understand that the most commonly used, most reliable, battery isolation devices are properly sized diode isolators and properly sized switches.  As Brett says, he should only be concerned about what the voltage is....AT your positive battery terminals. 
Also, his statement about an alternator output voltage value of 14.7 Vdc overburdening the alternator begs question.  An alternator's output voltage doesn't have much to do with an alternator's load.  It's the amount of current that is being generated by the alternator that matters in terms of alternator load, wear and tear. 

Anyway, best wishes, Dean and no.  No test in the morning.
Neal
 
The selected media item is not currently available.
Neal (& Brenda) Pillsbury
'02 U320 SPEC, 4200, DGFE, Build #5984
'04 Gold Wing
'07 Featherlite 24'
'14 Jeep Grand Cherokee Summit
MC #14494
Exeter, NH & LaBelle FL
Quality makes the Heart Soar long after Price is Forgotten

Re: New battery setup (was RE: House Batteries boiling)

Reply #30
Dean
I second Brett's response.
 
With your dual 8D capacity, routine use of  low-current appliances (computers, dc control boards, parasitic loads) going down the road, are not going to change your house battery bank SOC (State of Charge)  rapidly. 
If you use resistance heating devices (like a toaster, a clothes iron, AC heat strips, infra red heater) or microwaves, or motors (residential refer, furnace blower(s), exhaust fan(s), CPAP machines with humidity heaters) types of loads, then the SOC rate of change will become apparent. 
With reasonable care, you should easily go 8 to 10 hours of driving time without needing to start the generator (preferable to charging the Lifelines at something greater than 14.3 Vdc) or closing the manual battery isolator switch to charge the house bank via the alternator.

Sidenote:
It's an interesting dilemna to have an engineer contradict his own company's technical literature.  Especially when that engineer also thinks that a 0.5 to 0.9 Vdc voltage drop in a power diode is unusual and doubly so if the engineer doesn't understand that the most commonly used, most reliable, battery isolation devices are properly sized diode isolators and properly sized switches.  As Brett says, he should only be concerned about what the voltage is....AT your positive battery terminals. 
Also, his statement about an alternator output voltage value of 14.7 Vdc overburdening the alternator begs question.  An alternator's output voltage doesn't have much to do with an alternator's load.  It's the amount of current that is being generated by the alternator that matters in terms of alternator load, wear and tear. 

Anyway, best wishes, Dean and no.  No test in the morning.
Neal
                              Hey Neal, Man you guys are incredible. I couldn't ask for more help with any issue than I have gotten here.
              I know to some it may seem like I am splitting hairs but spending that kind of money on something and then finding it's not optimal is a bit disconcerting.

            Okay, rant over. So, options I am considering now:

        1- I have spoken to my battery guy again, who has been great btw, and he says he will swap out the Odysseys for whatever batteries (Lifeline, Optima, etc.) that might be better suited for the useage. Up side, I may be able to match the alternator voltage to a more optimum level for both banks. Downside, I may need to go back to three starting batteries to match the CCA's of the Odysseys, which means buying another battery. He suggested the Lifeline GPL-2400T's. They are very pricy though and I wonder if the Optima Red Tops may get the job done for less money. More research....

        2- Go with Bretts Marine switch idea keeping the batteries I have. Upside, it solves the voltage issue for both banks and eliminates the isolator. Downside, (slight) I have to remember to switch on and off as required.

            So if anyone wants to try to lean me one way or the other, I am all ears. (or eyes)


        I agree with you Neal about the engineers take on the whole thing. I believe there is a happy medium somewhere between real world experience and what the books say. And that's not to take anything away from engineers, I spent many years in commercial construction working with them and have great respect. We just saw things differently sometimes. Anyway, the input I am getting from you folks on this forum is what is making the most sense to me.

            Thanks, Dean

         

               

     
                       
Dean & Deirdre

2012 Arctic Fox 22GQ
Was 2003 U270

Re: New battery setup (was RE: House Batteries boiling)

Reply #31
Dean,

The direction you go depends on two things:

How much dry camping you do (followed by having the alternator charge the house battery) AND

How important KISS vs AUTOMATIC you want things.

If you do mostly camping with shore power (as we do), I don't turn the switch on twice a year. Kind of a back-up.

The On-Off switch also allows easy charging of the chassis battery from your inverter/charger unless you have made other arrangements for charging the chassis battery.
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: New battery setup (was RE: House Batteries boiling)

Reply #32

How much dry camping you do (followed by having the alternator charge the house battery)

The On-Off switch also allows easy charging of the chassis battery from your inverter/charger unless you have made other arrangements for charging the chassis battery.
                    Brett, Like you we typically camp with full hookups although there is the occasional 2 or 3 night dry camp weekend. Not an issue there.

                    So does the battery switch eliminate the use of the boost switch at the dash? Or would it still work with the marine switch in the on position?

          Thanks, Dean
Dean & Deirdre

2012 Arctic Fox 22GQ
Was 2003 U270

Re: New battery setup (was RE: House Batteries boiling)

Reply #33
Both boost switch and manual switch ON do exactly the same thing-- connect the two battery banks through large-gauge cables.
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020