Engine Won't Start!!!

Topic: Engine Won't Start!!! (Read 2655 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #25 – December 25, 2013, 09:54:12 pm

Brett: yes... a decent DVM will tell me a lot. I still think it's the dash solenoid.

Brad: It's common to see a voltage drop of 2 or 3 volts on the dash voltmeter when you hit the starter. Even on a small engine. It is possible that there is a battery problem but I had the generator on and the boost switch on. Not even a click from the starter solenoid (at the engine).

Craig

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #26 – December 25, 2013, 10:09:01 pm

If you have a 12 volt test light you can check if it lights up on the positive terminal on the starter and when someone turns the key to start see if the wire that activates the starter lights up. You can also take a jumper wire from the positive terminal on the starter to the small terminal that activates the starter and see if the starter turns over. there is also a solenoid mounted to the frame somewhere near the starter that is like the ignition solenoid under the dash and it takes the signal from the dash and sens a stronger signal to the starter good luck.

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #27 – December 25, 2013, 11:26:12 pm

Quote from: red tractor – December 25, 2013, 10:09:01 pm

If you have a 12 volt test light you can check if it lights up on the positive terminal on the starter and when someone turns the key to start see if the wire that activates the starter lights up. You can also take a jumper wire from the positive terminal on the starter to the small terminal that activates the starter and see if the starter turns over. there is also a solenoid mounted to the frame somewhere near the starter that is like the ignition solenoid under the dash and it takes the signal from the dash and sens a stronger signal to the starter good luck.

The engine starter has a solenoid on top of it. It is, however, not easy to access. And it's not making any noise at all!

I know there is 12vdc on the positive side of the dash solenoid... but the DVM quit working before I could get a good comparison between the two sides. We put in a new dash solenoid and it would not even engage (no "click" when the key was turned on). Put the old one back and it, at least, clicked when the key was turned to "on".

A new DVM will tell the tale, I think.

Craig

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #28 – December 26, 2013, 08:44:29 am

Craig,

When you get the voltmeter up and running, check what is happening at the ignition solenoid before concluding the new one is bad:

One large lug should read chassis battery voltage all the time-- 12.5 VDC+ if your chassis battery is charged.

The other large lug should read the same with the ignition (key) turned on.

If not:

Check for 12+ VDC to the small lug when key on. If two small lugs, one will be ground, the other the one from the ignition. If no reading, the ignition switch or wiring from it is bad. Take a small jumper wire from the battery side lug to the positive small lug. You should hear the solenoid click in and will have chassis battery voltage at the other large lug.

If there is voltage at the small lug, but not at the other large lug, then, yes the solenoid is bad.

Even a test light or 12 VDC bulb and some wire can be used to test if your voltmeter is not working.

Brett

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #29 – December 26, 2013, 02:15:04 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – December 26, 2013, 08:44:29 am

Even a test light or 12 VDC bulb and some wire can be used to test if your voltmeter is not working.

I know the ignition works because it can energize the old solenoid... but doesn't energize the new one. And the dash meters (voltmeter, fuel level, etc.) come on with the old solenoid most of the time (but occasionally do not). This makes me suspect that the contacts on the old solenoid are going bad. I want to measure the voltage differential between the DC from the batteries and the output of the solenoid.

About to head into town to get the DVM. Wish I knew where my Fluke went. Was in my pickup and now has disappeared.

Craig

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #30 – December 26, 2013, 02:29:22 pm

If the new solenoid does not energize, try bringing voltage from the big hot lead side to the small terminal instead of from the ignition switch. Could be your ignition switch if that works. The new solenoids have two small terminals (and two big ones). Connect either one of the small ones to ground and the other to the ign. switch wire. The new solenoids won't work without a ground to one of the small terminals unlike the older models.

Major ground point is only a few inches away on the steering column mount.

Pierce

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #31 – December 26, 2013, 06:00:39 pm

I know I am sounding ridiculous but...is the replacement solenoid a continuous duty design as is the OEM solenoid?

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #32 – December 26, 2013, 07:06:51 pm

The original solenoid is back in place. There is no voltage drop across the terminals with the key ON; not even a tenth of a volt. So that should eliminate that from contention. Unfortunately I'm coming down with a cold or flu and will have to wait til tomorrow when my son can come back over here and help.

Next step is the engine room.

Craig

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #33 – December 26, 2013, 07:24:39 pm

I had a very similar experience this past summer. It caused me to replace my three red top starting batteries. With that done, replacement of the isolater and the ignition relay and checking what I thought was everything else, still no start. I then took off the battery cables off one at a time and cleaned them then the terminals. Wow, everything worked. Although I had just cleaned them two years ago, there was just enough corrosion on the ground that the coach starter would not engage.

I hope this helps.

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #34 – December 26, 2013, 07:48:44 pm

Everything that is electrical I take apart and coat with Copper paste. never any more corrosion and better contact.
John H

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #35 – December 26, 2013, 07:50:58 pm

Quote from: John Haygarth – December 26, 2013, 07:48:44 pm

Everything that is electrical I take apart and coat with Copper paste. never any more corrosion and better contact.
John H

Alright John, what is copper paste? Is that what we southerners call never-seize we use on manifold bolts?

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #36 – December 26, 2013, 08:24:26 pm

Craig ---- When I went thru the starting solenoid hunt/chase situation, I learned from the parts person at FT that you need to replace the original solenoid with a similar heavy duty solenoid that will handle the load that this one does. They informed me that a solenoid from the auto parts store will not handle it and will fail again. I installed the temporary solenoid (from an auto parts store) and ordered one from FT which I installed as soon as I received it. I havn't had another problem since then (about 3 yrs). There may be other options, but ordering a replacement from FT is surely a good solution. There may be another problem, but all of the symptoms of a bad solenoid seem to be there. I don't understand the new solenoid not operating, did you screw it down before checking it? I believe that the can side is ground for that solenoid. These kind of problems can be frustrating and it takes patience to eliminate the variables one at a time. Have great day ---- Fritz

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #37 – December 26, 2013, 08:50:31 pm

Tomorrow will be battery terminal cleaning and tightening (even though they were pretty tight). I had re-installed the cables last spring after the fire-repair was done but it's an easy fix.

After that I'll check connections at the isolator and the starter/starter-solenoid.

I'll have a bit of help tomorrow I hope.

Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone.

Craig

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #38 – December 26, 2013, 09:59:22 pm

Kent, the container is in my pit and the 240 is over top of it so cannot get to it right now, but, it is Copper oxide in a paste form. Git it 20 yrs ago from a Hydro worker friend that they use for mega killowatt contacts and were moisture is abundant. I think it is called 'Copper Shield"
JohnH

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #39 – December 26, 2013, 11:36:29 pm

From:

http://www.amazon.com/Permatex-09128-Copper-Anti-Seize-Lubricant/dp/B000HBM8 HU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1388118706&sr=8-1&keywords=copper+paste

Permatex Copper Anti-Seize Lubricant is a premium quality copper anti-seize and thread lubricant that may be used to prevent seizing, corrosion and galling where high temperature conditions exist. Contains a high percentage of micro-fine copper flakes in a semi-synthetic grease carrier and is fortified with high quality rust and corrosion inhibitors. With a temperature range of -30 degrees Fahrenheit to 1800 degrees Fahrenheit, this lubricant is ideal for spark plug threads installed in aluminum, exhaust manifold bolts, engine bolts, oxygen sensors, knock sensors, thermostat housing bolts, fuel filter fittings, and battery cable connections. From special-mission, job-specific lubricants, protectants and dressings, to the rigors of heavy-duty needs, count on Permatex to bring you reliability and problem-solving solutions that extend the life of your equipment.

As an Amazon Associate Foretravel Owners' Forum earns from qualifying purchases.

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #40 – December 27, 2013, 11:14:43 am

Quote from: Barry & Cindy – December 26, 2013, 11:36:29 pm

From:

http://www.amazon.com/Permatex-09128-Copper-Anti-Seize-Lubricant/dp/B000HBM8 HU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1388118706&sr=8-1&keywords=copper+paste

Permatex Copper Anti-Seize Lubricant is a premium quality copper anti-seize and thread lubricant that may be used to prevent seizing, corrosion and galling where high temperature conditions exist. Contains a high percentage of micro-fine copper flakes in a semi-synthetic grease carrier and is fortified with high quality rust and corrosion inhibitors. With a temperature range of -30 degrees Fahrenheit to 1800 degrees Fahrenheit, this lubricant is ideal for spark plug threads installed in aluminum, exhaust manifold bolts, engine bolts, oxygen sensors, knock sensors, thermostat housing bolts, fuel filter fittings, and battery cable connections. From special-mission, job-specific lubricants, protectants and dressings, to the rigors of heavy-duty needs, count on Permatex to bring you reliability and problem-solving solutions that extend the life of your equipment.

That's the stuff I was thinking of but will it conduct electricity. My guess is yes because of the copper particles but it's level of conductivity is dependent upon the loading of the copper particles. If it is really good for preventing corrosion on batteries and cables I would think Permatex would advertise it's suitability. They seldom miss a marketing trick.

As an Amazon Associate Foretravel Owners' Forum earns from qualifying purchases.

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #41 – December 27, 2013, 12:12:42 pm

In our business, we use both the copper grease and in addition we also use ground silver as a grease on high current moveable contacts. The price of this silver product is a bit costly at $385.00 for a very small vile of approx. 1 level teaspoon. Use it spareling

Yes it works very good, we use about 6-8 a year, customers never yell.
Dave M

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #42 – December 27, 2013, 02:40:14 pm

I like Kent's post above about double checking the battery terminal posts/connections. Winter starting can really draw the amperage for a longer period if the big engine cranks for a while. It can even melt one of the lead connectors if it has high resistance. While you are cleaning/checking, why not run a short welding cable sized ground a very short distance to the chassis?

Also, while Foretravel may be able to supply a solenoid, it is the same brand (Cole-Hersee) as your local parts store or internet supplier has. Going to the Cole-Hersee site, you can make sure the one you get is the latest model as they upgrade every several years and it's easy to get an older model if you don't have the latest part number. Right now, the ignition, boost, etc. solenoid has a 24213 part number. Solenoids & Relays | Steel & Phenolic Body Solenoids24213 | Cole Hersee -

If the budget allows, a solid state solenoid is even better but costs more.

I changed our boost solenoid but the ignition solenoid under the dash top is original.

Pierce

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #43 – December 27, 2013, 02:44:38 pm

Quote from: Kent Speers – December 27, 2013, 11:14:43 am

That's the stuff I was thinking of but will it conduct electricity. My guess is yes because of the copper particles but it's level of conductivity is dependent upon the loading of the copper particles. If it is really good for preventing corrosion on batteries and cables I would think Permatex would advertise it's suitability. They seldom miss a marketing trick.

They do mention "battery terminals" in their blurb about useability so the implication is that it conducts electricity well enough. Although maybe they mean on the outside of the battery terminals.

Craig

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #44 – December 27, 2013, 06:09:28 pm

Ok... it is not:

Dash solenoid: Not only can I measure no voltage drop across the solenoid when it's activated, but I also jumpered it and no start...

Starting batteries: Holding nicely at 12.7vdc. The starting bank consists of two red-top Optima 12vdc batteries in parallel. Each battery measures 12.7vdc.

Battery terminals and cables: Took start batteries out, disassembled the cables, cleaned the contacts. Reassembled and tested 12.7vdc. No start.

I am beginning to suspect starter and/or starter solenoid. I will test these as soon as I can find someone stupi.... er, young enough to lay under the motor home while I activate the starter to see if there is 12vdc at the starter.

Is the starter/solenoid assembly a standard one for 1992 Cummins 5.9B engines? Can I just go to a junkyard and buy one out of a Dodge pickup for that year?

Temperature is 27 outside but with wind chill it "feels like" 23(F). I believe it. Drove to 5 local auto parts and farm parts stores this morning and not one of them has the Permatex high copper compound. They all said that they can order it. I told each of them that *I* could order it and get it cheaper than buying it from them. Watch me with my smart phone make you irrelevant. I try to buy local... but they do not make it easy. I foresee a drastic change in the way business is done; especialy in relatively small towns.

Craig

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #45 – December 27, 2013, 07:25:12 pm

If you don't want to be down there at the starter for long (Brrrr), you could make LONG test leads out of extra wire. Connect the DVM to a wire that you run to the positive at the starter and up thru the bed, and then use any ground from the comfort of inside the motorhome to see if 12V appears when you or someone else hits the starter.

One last stab and then my brain is empty on the subject. I had a Ford Van that had the battery cable connection ON the starter collect enough corrosion to not allow it to work.

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #46 – December 28, 2013, 08:25:30 am

The solenoid on this starter has replaceable contacts, easily done without removing starter. Here's what I'd recommend you try before replacing anything, though....

Check to see if you are getting a 12 volt signal to small terminal on solenoid when key is turned to start position.

If yes, is solenoid making a loud click when signal is applied but starter doesn't turn? If so, the points in the solenoid are probably shot and need to be replaced. This normally is a slowly developing problem, though. It could be the starter motor, if it groans, smokes, slowly tuirns, or has done this on a prior start attempt.

If no click when 12 volts applied to solenoid term, then coil in solenoid is bad. Replace.

In addition to needing 12 volts to energize solenoid on starter, it needs to have enough ampacity to pull solenoid coil in. Suggest trying a separate 12 ga or so wire from positive battery post to solenoid term to make sure the problem isn't a bad splice or wire problem upstream.

These are very durable starters, the only problem I've seen with several of them has been solenoid points. They wear out. I bet you've got a wire problem.....

Chuck

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #47 – December 28, 2013, 12:56:01 pm

Quote from: Chuck Pearson – December 28, 2013, 08:25:30 am

The solenoid on this starter has replaceable contacts, easily done without removing starter. Here's what I'd recommend you try before replacing anything, though....

Check to see if you are getting a 12 volt signal to small terminal on solenoid when key is turned to start position.

Chuck, thanks for the ideas.

Yes... this is my (cunning) plan. I have to wait 'til our son (30 and still agile) can get over here this afternoon (when it warms all the way up to 35F) and help.

However, since the battery voltage (as indicated on the dash voltmeter) dips 3 or 4 volts when I turn the key to start, I am pretty sure we're getting voltage to the starter solenoid. But there is no click! Not a sound. Either not enough current to move the solenoid or something is up with the solenoid.

My suspicions now revolve either a bad connection at the isolator panel or the solenoid, or a frozen solenoid. I suppose it's possible that the starter pinion itself has jammed. There had never been any indication of grinding from the starter, however.

I would think that these should be pretty common in junkyards. I may have to take this one in and see if we can match it, however.

Glad I'm not in a Walmart parking lot.

Craig

Re: Engine Won't Start!!!

Reply #48 – December 28, 2013, 03:46:48 pm

That kind of voltage drop indicates one of several things:

Low battery, bad starter or engine that is seized up.

With the small B engine, you can rule out the "expensive one" by merely raising the bed and using a wrench to turn over the engine. No, unless you have a pet gorilla, you couldn't do that with the M, but a B should not be an issue.

Re: Engine Won't Start!!! - Solved

Reply #49 – December 28, 2013, 07:32:03 pm

Not exactly sure if I solved it... but I sent the DW back to put her hand on the starter solenoid to see if she could feel it engaging... went up to the front, pushed the BOOST switch, hit the starter and off she went. All normal just like nothing had happened. Took the rig out for a 50 mile warm-me-up, brought it back to the shop, shut it down and restarted just fine.

Batteries are the same as when I bought the RV so it's possible that they are not in the best condition.

Or maybe we weren't supposed to leave...

Or it likes it when my wife touches it.

Craig

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