New to RVing

Topic: New to RVing (Read 2301 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: New to RVing

Reply #25 – March 24, 2014, 07:55:59 pm

To piggyback on Jerry's advice about the brakes, a set of wheel chocks is a good investment. I bought a cheap pair a few days after we got our coach, more to say I put them out than in hopes that they would really stop a coach that intends to take a header over a cliff. One of these days I'll get to a real truck place and buy a good set.

You may laugh about a coach taking a header over the cliff, but it actually happened. One of the guys over on the Wanderlodge forum bought a new-to-him coach. He was stopped at a rest area and when he came back out his coach was gone and everyone was all excited about the motorhome that rolled off the cliff. Yep, his. Fortunately no one was in it, but it was pretty well demolished, and that's a steel bus.

Re: New to RVing

Reply #26 – March 24, 2014, 09:10:20 pm

David has it correct above. HF has excellent pretty tall rubber chocks. They have metal rings so you just have to fasten a poly line linking the two together. We store ours in the tiny compartment the step retracts into. Just fits. The parking brake will not hold on much of an incline so make it a habit to chock. Foretravel factory does it as well as all utilities and public service trucks. Placing one in front and one behind the tire, it's impossible to drive off and forget them.

Allison automatic transmissions don't have a "park" position so the rear cans with their small springs are the only thing between you and disaster.

I have talked to several emergency service drivers who forgot to chock and now everyone tells a story about them.

If you try the parking brake at 20 mph, you can see just how well (or really poorly) it holds.

Pierce

Re: New to RVing

Reply #27 – March 25, 2014, 06:50:38 am

The M11 with a slight press of the pedal will walk even with the brake on.

Re: New to RVing

Reply #28 – March 25, 2014, 10:55:31 am

Thanks Jerry and others for the advice. Nothing is too basic. I did not know about charging the black water tank. We are going to try a night or two at our farm where we keep the FT. I will hook up to water and crank the generator since I only have a 15 or 20 amp hookup. Should I fill the water tank and run pump for this trial or just run of public water? I want to learn all I can about the unit and make sure everything works before taking her out. Thanks

Re: New to RVing

Reply #29 – March 25, 2014, 11:33:40 am

I would fill the fresh water tank and run the coach's water pump. You are then checking the entire internal water supply system. We have been full timing for 13 years we run off the coach's water system all the time whether boondocking or hooked up in an RV park. We turn off the water pump when we leave the coach, less chance of a major water "episode" as the expansion tank only holds a couple gallons of water.

Roland

Re: New to RVing

Reply #30 – March 25, 2014, 11:37:34 am

Dave,

Expect it has a lot to do with idle speed. My idle is OK but with max air, I still have to shift into neutral going down my driveway or I can't stop the rig even with the service brakes fully applied. The engine/trans usually helps the coach slow down with the exception of being stopped with the transmission in gear where it's just the opposite. In normal driving, I can lock up all six if something jumps out in front of me.

We had 10" S cam drums on our late Crown fire trucks. I normally set the Anchorloks 50 feet before stopping while arriving at an emergency but with the 10" drums, it was easy to lockup the back wheels so had to wait until stopped. With the brakes set, it was not going anywhere and letting out the clutch just stalled the engine.

Disk brakes are much less prone to fade and easier to work on but the parking springs on the rear brakes just can't squeeze the disk as effectively as big drums. I could not move my 4107 with the parking brake on.

Setting chocks is good procedure as too many "drivers" get into the habit of just the parking brake until the coach is on enough grade so it starts rolling or the brakes are hot. Some even think hitting the parking brake while moving will "throw everyone through the windshield." Always good to check air pressure before heading down steep grades and keep an eye on the gauge as losing pressure and applying the parking brake won't do much to stop a coach on grades like that.

Pierce

Re: New to RVing

Reply #31 – March 25, 2014, 01:12:52 pm

Dave,

I must have written my explanation wrong. Our disc brakes work great in normal use, don't fade, etc. Work great on the decent into Jackson, WY on the alternate road not recommended for RVs and with toad.

My driveway is so steep that I have to back up it. Over 800 feet total with 300 plus looking like an Olympic ski jump. The 6.xx works great in reverse where trying to go forward up it with a 4.xx first gear just heats the torque converter. That's why I sold my 4107 as I could not even come close to going up the driveway. Only about 50 feet.

Compared to a manual transmission, the automatic Allison is putting a lot torque into the rear end at idle. I can lock up anytime I want in neutral even coming down the driveway but with the additional torque against the rear brakes, it won't do it down the ski jump while in gear.

Hey, ask Bill Chaplin about it. Just looking down it from the top is unnerving. Plus there is a small canyon with a creek at the bottom to plunge into if you lose it. With snow on it, we invite the high school ski jumpers to practice.

The fire dept brakes worked very well. Every call was full throttle to max allowable speed on the city streets and then if going against a red light, max braking to almost a stop and then repeated many times on the way to a call. When I say max braking, I mean waiting until the last moment each time and then just short of locking all six up with everyone having their seat belt belt tight. Tires ALWAYS up to max listed pressure. The older trucks with 4 inch drums were marginal until they were retired but the later rigs with drums or disks worked great.

So, you could put bigger cans in the rear but in normal driving, the last thing you want is the rear locking before the front, especially in the rain. (ABS is sure nice) If they do, you are along for the ride as the rear meets the front. With a manual transmission, there is no issue, in fact, compound low is great for decending anything and usually does not even require the service brakes. High idle speed with an Allison while stopped or creeping tests the rear brakes and pointed downhill even more. Forgot to say that when I'm heading down the drive and in gear, the fronts will lock up while the rear pushes and then I have no steering with a drop off on the right side. Will have to make a short quicktime movie of the decent for you flatlanders.

Several YouTube videos of the stopping distance when the Anchorloks/parking brake is applied at different speeds. Every RV operator should view these.

Pierce

Re: New to RVing

Reply #32 – March 25, 2014, 02:11:08 pm

I think I better go buy a set of wheel chocks before the upcoming trip. But I've already tested the parking brake. If it's on, and we're in gear, we don't move. i haven't floored it, worrying about Ujoints and such, but giving it enough beans to build boost with the parking brake set makes for some more noise and that's it. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, if the brake is set, have folks had their rigs move when there's a leak and the springs aren't up to the task? Or can your coach move even though air is full up? In any case I think chocks are cheap insurance. Too easy to think up scenarios where the p-brake gets inadvertently released. I'm now thinking I'd be a lot happier if the square yellow button were underneath a mil-spec style flap door, just for that reason. :/ Hmm. Time to fire up the jigsaw and belt sander. Shouldn't be too hard.

Re: New to RVing

Reply #33 – March 25, 2014, 03:58:02 pm

Parking brake can be manually operated or comes on automatically if the air pressure drops below a certain point. Air pressure has nothing to do with the parking brake's effectiveness as it is operated by a spring in each rear brake "can" and supplies the force that keeps the brake on. Nothing on the front wheels.

The parking brake will hold on the flat with the engine running and in gear and also on an bit of an incline. There is a point where it won't hold even with the engine/trans in neutral. On really steep parking, I have had to set the parking brake, put it in reverse and then get out to chock the wheel before I shut it down.

If the brakes are out of adjustment, the parking brake may be less effective also. Another reason to chock all the time. With the chocks in the step compartment, it does not add more than a few seconds to put them on each side of a tire.

Lots of small items that make a difference in safety and longevity. Not shutting the engine down for several minutes at a sightseeing spot after climbing a grade will prolong the turbo's life and the engine too.

Entering the pattern, I always say "gear down" and stick out one finger. Turning base, another finger comes out and again out loud, "gear down" and finally on final, a third finger along with "gear down" makes it impossible to land gear up. Same procedures can be used with a RV for parking, shutting down, disconnecting, etc. A couple minutes of discipline will pay off rather than just pulling up, throwing the brakes on and climbing out.

Pierce

Pierce

Re: New to RVing

Reply #34 – March 25, 2014, 04:42:05 pm

I have learned over the years of driving unihomes and unicoaches to exercise the disk brakes hard on the beginning and during a days drive. In a safe spot turn off the retarder. Use the brakes hard. From higher speeds. Several times. Only time I use the retarder is when the stopping distances close up in front of me.

The disks are by nature cold blooded. First stop from cold not very impressive. Warmed up they get stronger and stronger. Ahhh. Now we have brakes again.

They cool off fairly rapidly. The retarder is a crutch. Learn how the brakes work without it.

Then the retarder is a safety and shorter stopping distance help.

The air disks warmed up and with no glaze on the rotors/pads from never getting to operating temperature are truly impressive. Lay on the brake pedal hard. As they warm up the coach stops harder and harder. Fun to play with the pedal.

Like I said I am carefull in traffic to have warmed up brakes and the retarder on.

Learn the coaches abilities prior to needing it.

Repeated hard stops several times a day or prior to stop and go use in a town and with lots of practice try it without the retarder. I make imaginary stops a lot. No traffic. Open road. Just to see what happens dead cold or warmed up. And glazed from non use and road water on the system.

Buy a cheap harbor freight infra red temp gauge. Walk the coach immediately after a hour or two drive and point at the wheels and hubs and tires.

Dragging brakes make that wheel hotter. Low tire pressure makes that tire warmer.

Probably why Foretravel went to a retarder as the disc brakes are subject to being cold blooded and the disks and pads get some buildup on them stored.

Without the retarder in a long term stored coach the first stop might be scary if an emergency showed up.

My personal truck takes all day to finally get the heavy duty disc brakes to stop hard and be almost touchy as I am lightly loaded versus its ratings.

Same thing with the Foretravel. The brakes are made for the gvwr without brake assist from the towed. my coach stops fine with warmed up brakes with no retarder and no brake assist at 35,500 actual weight. Impressive. Just push harder.

Oh and check the air system gauges to see if the main chassis air governer is allowing full air pressure. Mine was gummed up and went from 95 to 110 or so.

Now 110-125+ Guess what? The brakes work better with the higher air pressure. Duh

Bob

Re: New to RVing

Reply #35 – March 25, 2014, 04:54:17 pm

"Parking brake can be manually operated or comes on automatically if the air pressure drops below a certain point. Air pressure has nothing to do with the parking brake's effectiveness as it is operated by a spring in each rear brake "can" and supplies the force that keeps the brake on."

Good, that's what I remember being taught. So if the thing rolls with that p-brake on it indicates a really steep hill, or a problem that needs adjusting.

Re: New to RVing

Reply #36 – March 25, 2014, 05:09:57 pm

Quote from: twobus – March 25, 2014, 04:54:17 pm

"Parking brake can be manually operated or comes on automatically if the air pressure drops below a certain point. Air pressure has nothing to do with the parking brake's effectiveness as it is operated by a spring in each rear brake "can" and supplies the force that keeps the brake on."

Good, that's what I remember being taught. So if the thing rolls with that p-brake on it indicates a really steep hill, or a problem that needs adjusting.

Yes or needs deglazing before severe use IMO

Re: New to RVing

Reply #37 – March 25, 2014, 05:17:17 pm

Quote

I'm now thinking I'd be a lot happier if the square yellow button were underneath a mil-spec style flap door, just for that reason. :/ Hmm. Time to fire up the jigsaw and belt sander. Shouldn't be too hard.

Twobus, I would sure like to see that mod.

Re: New to RVing

Reply #38 – March 25, 2014, 08:42:14 pm

Bob,

You have it exactly about the retarder or Jake being a crutch. And yes, they do work much better warm. Just because the parking brake holds well in the middle of the day does not mean the next cold morning will be the same. Another reason for making chocking a habit.

Spent a couple of days in Death Valley last month. Big disks were great on the long 9 percent downhills to 395.

Good points all.

Pierce

Re: New to RVing

Reply #39 – March 26, 2014, 02:47:49 am

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – March 25, 2014, 08:42:14 pm

You have it exactly about the retarder or Jake being a crutch. And yes, they do work much better warm. Just because the parking brake holds well in the middle of the day does not mean the next cold morning will be the same. Another reason for making chocking a habit.

Never asked if the springs for the safety brakes lose strength of the years?

Bob

Re: New to RVing

Reply #40 – March 26, 2014, 04:27:00 am

I replaced my rear spring/air chambers last summer. I was surprised to find that the larger #30 chambers were not installed stock.
I have also noted that moving the coach cold, in a cramped area, requiring maneuvering back and forth is a white knuckle experience. I too must toggle between in gear and neutral to have control.
Pierce, I can only imagine what you must feel dealing with "dead mans" hill!

I plan to replace my front air chambers this spring. I know I should just go with whats there, and I realize the danger that could come from having spring chambers on the front but, I'm intrigued by the thought of having a additional parking brake force up front that could be rigged to spring brake chambers up front on the small air chambers that mount to the front brakes.
Maybe an additional air control/parking brake button that could be used in reserve?

Just for the sake of discussion;
how much braking force would spring/ air chambers have up front if there was catastrophic air pressure loss?
It seems that the small size of the front air chambers could be overcome without a huge loss of control if the springs deployed from a lack of air pressure while moving.
The additional braking force from spring/air chambers up front might be enough to "help" hold the coach while parked on a incline.

Re: New to RVing

Reply #41 – March 26, 2014, 10:19:36 am

I also suggest trying out at home for a day or so. You may learn some things that you will want/need. If then have questions, you can ask without a real deadline. Also check the age of tires. Cannot rely on their look, check the manufacturing dates. Once you go to the park, wander around and see how others are hooked up and ask why, if not obvious. You will get good ideas that way.
Eric

Re: New to RVing

Reply #42 – March 26, 2014, 10:57:57 am

Quote from: Lon and Cheryl – March 26, 2014, 04:27:00 am

I replaced my rear spring/air chambers last summer. I was surprised to find that the larger #30 chambers were not installed stock.
I have also noted that moving the coach cold, in a cramped area, requiring maneuvering back and forth is a white knuckle experience. I too must toggle between in gear and neutral to have control.
Pierce, I can only imagine what you must feel dealing with "dead mans" hill!

I plan to replace my front air chambers this spring. I know I should just go with whats there, and I realize the danger that could come from having spring chambers on the front but, I'm intrigued by the thought of having a additional parking brake force up front that could be rigged to spring brake chambers up front on the small air chambers that mount to the front brakes.
Maybe an additional air control/parking brake button that could be used in reserve?

Just for the sake of discussion;
how much braking force would spring/ air chambers have up front if there was catastrophic air pressure loss?
It seems that the small size of the front air chambers could be overcome without a huge loss of control if the springs deployed from a lack of air pressure while moving.
The additional braking force from spring/air chambers up front might be enough to "help" hold the coach while parked on a incline.

The larger replacements were larger in the spring side only?

With the short driveshaft probably nothing will fit but a driveline parking brake was on the older gas coaches....

I probably would test turning the rear brake rotors to perfectly smooth to add surface area to the rear brake system as part of optimizing the existing system. New the rear axle chamber brakes I thought held very well. Brought the coach down from highway speed very well when the system was demoed to customers.

Maybe even the rear pads to match the turned rotors?

Two smooth good as possible sets of parts might be enough. And new springs?

Also checking the actuating mechanism for any binding or old grease?

Now I will have to test mine but when the unihomes were introduced I do not remember any reference to weak parking brakes. But the coaches were much lighter then also.

Pads do get glazed from never getting to proper operating temp. Old gillig bus chassis that beaver used never got hot enough in use especially the ten inch wide rear drums and squealed and shuddered in use. Had to be deglazed by pulling off the 300 pound drum with a chain hoist and sand the disk.

As I mentioned here I deglaze my brakes by several full highway speed panic stops in a row without the retarder.

Sometimes it takes multiple stops then cooling them off then multiple hard stops again.

Maybe the opposite happened? Hard stops brought the resin binder to the pads surface?

May not be possible as I have no idea on the pads construction but I have seen this on other brake systems.

If deglazing does not help in think you are on the right track with replacing the chambers.

Re: New to RVing

Reply #43 – March 28, 2014, 03:08:49 pm

Quote

I'm now thinking I'd be a lot happier if the square yellow button were underneath a mil-spec style flap door, just for that reason. :/ Hmm. Time to fire up the jigsaw and belt sander. Shouldn't be too hard.

So Royce this is what I did and it works fine. The block is 1 1/4" x 1 1/2" x2" and the slot is 5/8" using the 1 1/4" width to fit the extended button on ours.
JohnH

Re: New to RVing

Reply #44 – March 28, 2014, 04:42:16 pm

We also have a parking brake safety block like John's. Others have made them out of PVC pipe & elbows. As long as there is air in rear brake air tank, an off-level coach is at risk parked without a safety block under the dash yellow brake control. There are some good stories where parking brake knob was inadvertently pushed in by adults and kids.

Re: New to RVing

Reply #45 – March 28, 2014, 06:07:08 pm

I made my out of schedule 40 3/4inch PVC 1 1/8 inches long with a 5/8 gap cut out of the side, it just snaps over the back of the knob.

Re: New to RVing

Reply #46 – March 28, 2014, 07:04:12 pm

Those are both simpler than my milspec cover idea. I've already started in on it or I'd just go this route. Ideally, I'd just switch the lines going to the valve, push to lock brakes pull to release... seems like this would prettynear eliminate the accidental release, but I'm not gonna mess with those. we'll just make it so you really have to want to disengage the brake, that's all.

Re: New to RVing

Reply #47 – March 29, 2014, 12:55:52 am

Jay, I have not thought it out but if you change the lines around would that have an effect on the auto function when air gets low and sets the rear brakes??
JohnH

Re: New to RVing

Reply #48 – March 29, 2014, 01:33:24 am

It *shouldn't*, but I am not inclined to find out. It ain't broke, I ain't gonna fix it!

Re: New to RVing

Reply #49 – March 29, 2014, 09:24:36 am

PLEASE....... Don't start changing air lines around and trying to change the operation of the air brake system. All of the components of the brake system are there for a reason and designed to operate in certain ways. If you defeat one part of the system you may find yourself in a world of trouble with other parts of the system. If you don't understand the operation PLEASE get some education about it. Go to a truck driving school and ask if you can sit in on the air brake session or to a competent shop and see if they will show you how the brakes work.

END OF SERMON FOR TODAY

Gary B

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