Problems In Nacogdoches?

Topic: Problems In Nacogdoches? (Read 6627 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Problems In Nacogdoches?

Reply #25 – May 30, 2014, 10:54:57 pm

Quote from: Carol Savournin – May 30, 2014, 08:35:30 pm

There are guys working in EVERY shop who graduated last in their class, just as there are real mechanics and then there are parts changers. Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances, I guess!

That is why I think it is important to learn as much as you can about the various systems, for self defense. I had a GREAT and HONEST shop that I stumbled across when I had my 1990 U280. They were in Corning, CA, somewhere I usually passed by yearly and could get my servicing. Same mechanics and same owners for years. But they eventually sold and closed.

There are many things I did not want to do to my coach, but there has been no one that I have found that cares as much as I do to do things right and efficiently. The common theme seems to be that if you can afford a Foretravel, well, we will expect that you can pay for whatever we might want to sell you. Then there's the attitude of "We don't know what's wrong, but we can throw parts at it..."

I ended up learning that my slide was nowhere near as complex as I had thought, and FOT's first diagnosis that there was nothing wrong with it (in 2007), was as bad as their last instruction to the mechanic at RNR that I should spend an extra $1500 for a completely unnecessary part (in 2013) that would have done NOTHING for the issue...yet it was what a "Star" mechanic at FOT told him to do.

Guidance from HWH with a $108 kit and $5 worth of steel caps gave me all the tools I needed to identify my real problem...a weak hydraulic cylinder caused by a Foretravel employee (of Texas or Tennessee, I don't know which) putting a couple of 1/4" self-tapping bolts literally into the walls of the slide mechanism. Repair cost was less than $200 once I found the issue, which really wasn't that hard to find, using the PROPER test procedures, most of which are even online at HWH! I had gone 6 years without using my slide because it wasn't working properly and I was afraid to put it out if even FOT couldn't figure it out. I finally got angry enough at the slide to take it on, and I'm tremendously pleased with HWH's help.

I spent a lot of time over this past winter digging into and fixing problems that should never have been. I didn't want to, but I had come to the conclusion that even spending money wasn't going to fix my problems, and it was going to take someone who really cared to solve them. Now my coach is enjoyable as a Foretravel should be. I still believe FT puts together the best coaches. Maybe if I lived in TX, I could go to Nac enough to learn which mechanics there actually know what they are doing. Short of that, I'm coming here!!!

Re: Problems In Nacogdoches?

Reply #26 – May 30, 2014, 11:11:11 pm

Another reason I put the "pit" in, as I have saved thousands in other mechanics work and not had to drive to NAC which itself is time and money from here. Anyone who wants a trip to BC to fix a problem on their coach is welcome (within reason of course) and together with the online help of this bunch of friends on FoFum we will fix it for the cost of a few drinks and fun.
I think within reason we are as good as them but $100 an hour cheaper.
JohnH

Re: Problems In Nacogdoches?

Reply #27 – May 30, 2014, 11:15:29 pm

Off subject a little, somewhere on the site I saw a bypass fitting assembly for the air dryer.I made one and carry it and think everyone should know how to bypass the dryer. very simple and could sure get a person out of a tight spot Larry

Re: Problems In Nacogdoches?

Reply #28 – May 30, 2014, 11:18:23 pm

Quote from: John Haygarth – May 30, 2014, 11:11:11 pm

Another reason I put the "pit" in, as I have saved thousands in other mechanics work and not had to drive to NAC which itself is time and money from here. Anyone who wants a trip to BC to fix a problem on their coach is welcome (within reason of course) and together with the online help of this bunch of friends on FoFum we will fix it for the cost of a few drinks and fun.
I think within reason we are as good as them but $100 an hour cheaper.
JohnH

Hear! Hear!

Re: Problems In Nacogdoches?

Reply #29 – May 30, 2014, 11:18:37 pm

I think the lesson here is a quote from President Reagan, "Trust, but verify." We hire people to do work for us because we either can't do the work ourselves or would rather not. We assume that those we hire know their business and will do what they are supposed to do. Most of the time we are satisfied. If we can politely verify that the work has been properly done before we pay for the work everyone will be happier. If there is a problem with how the work was done it is easier to fix it before someone leaves, whether it is the customer driving off in the coach or the electrician that rewired the house.

No one is perfect, and no one always does perfect work, much less a large business with many employees. The real test is how well that business handles those errors. If the problem is promptly acknowledged and corrected the customer is more likely to be pleased than if it isn't addressed until some time later, for whatever reason.

We've not had any work done at any of the Foretravel businesses in Nac (yet) but that's coming up at some point. From what I saw when we visited there a couple of years ago, I'm expecting a pleasant, if expensive, visit.

Re: Problems In Nacogdoches?

Reply #30 – May 30, 2014, 11:42:15 pm

Quote from: old 1320 – May 30, 2014, 11:15:29 pm

Off subject a little, somewhere on the site I saw a bypass fitting assembly for the air dryer.I made one and carry it and think everyone should know how to bypass the dryer. very simple and could sure get a person out of a tight spot Larry

Air Dryer Emergency Bypass Fitting

Re: Problems In Nacogdoches?

Reply #31 – May 30, 2014, 11:44:31 pm

I think the loss of some of the senior techs is being felt. One left the RV side and moved. One retired. One became shop foreman. That is Alton and Hector retired and Bob Ireland moved away. I heard James went over to MOT as well. Talk to Cory and tell him your story.

Re: Problems In Nacogdoches?

Reply #32 – May 30, 2014, 11:45:21 pm

DIY... I work on my own stuff for 2 reasons:
1. Nobody cares about my stuff as much as I do.
2. $$$
And when I do pay someone I verify. I try to watch other people fixing stuff when I can. They're going to educate me or entertain me, maybe both!

Re: Problems In Nacogdoches?

Reply #33 – May 31, 2014, 12:52:31 am

John, James is at MOT and been there for some time now. I was going to get fuel lines changed because you did, though I was getting them at MOT. James identified only the AH line needed done, others to engine fine, save the money. Glad to gave James work on mine, just as many others at MOT.

As for the post in this thread about air going to zero, I will interpret to mean when parked. after Mike Rodgers at MOT heard my concern about leak down, when I learned it should not have too, he correctly identified a check valve problem to the wet tank letting bleed back. New valve and I can can sit for weeks at 70 psi.

We started service at MOT because I had to buy an older coach and MOT carried those. That started me there and I have been very pleased with them or I would change. For our three years of RVing, we have had good outcomes at MOT on everything except an air system dust matter out of so many things done as repairs, annuals and upgrades. They try very hard and have good professional people in all areas. Not sure I would do Motorhome thing without them.

I have to think FOT tries just as hard. I hope we can help both companies do well, improving when they need. By the way, MOT has a new Service Manager.

Re: Problems In Nacogdoches?

Reply #34 – May 31, 2014, 05:39:11 am

When I decided to buy a 1995 vehicle as complicated as the Foretravel I accepted the fact that I better know, or be willing to learn as much as I could about the workings.
I also accepted the fact that many projects that I would like to do would have to wait till I spent time and money on tools and repair support here at home. Those expenses have certainly paid for them selves many times over.
I can't say I enjoy crawling around and aching for days after every project, or spending the time and money that I would much prefer to spend on the road on a trip, but this is what I bit off, and this is what the rule book calls for.
Fact is almost every mechanical repair I have hired somebody else to do on everything I own, has turned out to be a disappointment ( very rare I let somebody repair something) I almost always end up saying to myself that" I could have screwed that up myself and saved the money and time". I also know that when I travel I will feel MUCH better that I'm familiar with all the systems and could probably deal with most problems myself or direct somebody on the repair instead of helplessly waiting for them to learn and destroy on my dime.

When I tire of the coach I will give it to my Son and teach him how to maintain and repair it.

Re: Problems In Nacogdoches?

Reply #35 – May 31, 2014, 11:28:55 am

Lon, seems like you read, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance!

Re: Problems In Nacogdoches?

Reply #36 – May 31, 2014, 12:46:38 pm

I have never taken any vehicle into a shop except for tires. I worked at several as a kid and know what goes on in many of them. I have seen too many steam cleaner plus pan gasket overhauls. Why do you think the "no one allow in shop because of insurance" signs are there? If I can't do it, it's not going to get done. Our U300 has already paid for itself and like above, I will give it to the kids when I'm too old to drive it or just park it for a guest cabin. No fool like an old fool and I'm proud to be one.

I like the "learn and destroy" comment above!

Pierce

Re: Problems In Nacogdoches?

Reply #37 – May 31, 2014, 01:41:11 pm

Quote from: Brad & Christine Slaughter – May 30, 2014, 10:54:57 pm

I had gone 6 years without using my slide because it wasn't working properly

Now ... this just boggles my mind. I can't imagine going this length of time without being able to put my slide out!! SIX YEARS???

Re: Problems In Nacogdoches?

Reply #38 – May 31, 2014, 02:09:03 pm

Quote from: Carol Savournin – May 31, 2014, 01:41:11 pm

Now ... this just boggles my mind. I can't imagine going this length of time without being able to put my slide out!! SIX YEARS???

Yup. Brought it home after Foretravel said they could find nothing wrong when at the factory in 1/2007. Put it out and in once at the house, and the pump motor overheated and had to be replaced. Replaced it and put it out again, then it would come back in about an inch short of flush. And stayed there. Would NOT come in. A couple of days later, the thing worked itself in a little, so I released the bladder and it came all the way in. I left it there. The "HWH Authorized service center" in Lake Havasu is afraid of Foretravel slides and will not work on them. So I used the coach with the slide in, until I was told that there was a Foretravel-trained mechanic in Spokane that could fix it. So I took it there in 2013 and he got it back into synch, added an unnecessary $200 part, and it still would not work correctly a day later.

It was only when my anger at not having the slide got high enough that I contacted HWH directly and they taught me how to do what Foretravel couldn't seem to do: Find the damage that had been done and determine which part or parts needed replacement so that my slide would work properly. And it does, now.

Re: Problems In Nacogdoches?

Reply #39 – May 31, 2014, 03:32:24 pm

So far we have been able to dodge the Nac. bullet. Soon after we acquired our coach we went to Nac. to have a few small cracks in the roof repaired and a new coating put on. We also had the alignment checked and tweeked. We also asked them to look at the Zip Dee awning and was advised that it was a POS and not put another dime into it. They did , however, have a nice new automatic Girrard awning that they would sell me for about $6500.00. We did get our auto awning repaired for about $250.00. Overall we have been happy with the little amount of work that FOT have done. I did consult with them about our slide issues and was not really pleased with their answers/comments/suggestions. With the slide issue and FOT, I had to remind myself that 2002 was the only year that this HWH slide was used and most techs probably do not have a clue as to how it workes and how to properly diagnose issues. We followed Brad S. and his slide adventure and were able to resolve our issues as well. The diagnoses of our slide problem did take some time and am not sure if they, service centers, would/could be able to spend the time necessary to properly diagnose our issue and still make $$$$$.

I am always concerned about anyone twisting wrenches on our coach and it seems, like others have posted, that when we seek service/repair help from an "authorized service center", whatever that means, we are somewhat throwing dice as to who works on our equipment and what actual knowledge they have. Could be a great guy or not. I often feel that when approaching a service center they expect us to give them a blank check and let them do what they will. Certainly many posts here about that practice.

I am certainly sorry to hear stories about anyone not satisified with the service received especially our FOT.

Hopefully you will be able discuss your issues with the appropriate FOT authority and will find an amicable solution. I too will keep and eye on this thread.

Re: Problems In Nacogdoches?

Reply #40 – May 31, 2014, 04:06:09 pm

Quote from: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart – May 30, 2014, 10:26:04 pm

No apprenticeship programs, no technical school master's certificate with equal standing to a bachelor's degree may mean having the job done twice or more before it's done correctly. Tough to go from hanging in a Safeway parking lot to master mechanic.

Pierce

This is why a shop has a service manager. The function of the service manager is to oversee the work being done by the mechanics, be available to those mechanics to provide his expert knowledge, and most importantly to review the mechanics work (aka doublecheck) before the vehicle leaves the shop. This is what FOT DOES NOT have. They have an excellent mechanic that holds the service managers title, (I've forgotten his name) but they do not allow him to act as service manager as I have described above. He has his own work bays and his own vehicles to work on which is a no no for a true service manager. (for exactly the reasons we are seeing). In short, FOT has no quality control because of this mismanagement.

Re: Problems In Nacogdoches?

Reply #41 – May 31, 2014, 05:43:05 pm

Company's no longer have OJT programs to teach tech's the way they want it done, my father would not accept any excuse for not doing it the correct way, 46 years of Commercial Laundry Repair,our callback rate was less than 2%, most of the time it was apart failure, not a tech mistake.

Re: Problems In Nacogdoches?

Reply #42 – May 31, 2014, 06:48:46 pm

Look at the qualifications (age) of the "service writers".
Tech cannot fix what he don't know is wrong.
A experienced Service Writer learns from the Mechanic's over a long period of time.
Coordination is a must !!

As Dave M says " just my opinion"

Re: Problems In Nacogdoches?

Reply #43 – May 31, 2014, 10:53:17 pm

Quote from: Michael & Jackie – May 31, 2014, 11:28:55 am

Lon, seems like you read, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance!

No Motorcycles in my past or in the future. I have always know what the outcome to that would be!

My roots are in high performance cars.
My first car, a 1966 Shelby GT350. tore that apart in High School and learned the hard way how to repair a car. A labor of love back then. I kept that car and bought a 1972 DeTomaso Pantera. I put 3 different engines in that car looking for the most performance. Learning all the time, mostly by my mistakes. A few Vettes followed, but never captured my interest.
I think I'm still a "points and condenser guy" at heart. I will always miss the simplicity of the old generation cars. When those broke down you could usually get it runnin somehow and get it home.
Now, its usually a call for a tow truck if the car stops running.

If I couldn't fix the Foretravel I would not own it. I would consider ONLY newer coaches and coaches that had a national network for service. I would also consider ONLY much simpler mechanics on a coach. No air brakes, Gas engine, propane furnace and hot water. When it started to fall apart I would sell it and buy a newer unit.

Re: Problems In Nacogdoches?

Reply #44 – June 01, 2014, 12:21:21 am

We had service done at FOT in Feb, 2013. Chassis lube, defrost not working, AquaHot not firing up. They told me the defrost controls were not working, electronics part failed and not available anymore. The vacuum pump wasn't working. They fixed (replaced) that and hardwired round the control that opens and closes the defrost baffles. The service tech showed me what what and where the issues were, what he was fixing, replacing, where it was, how to get the dash apart. That part was fine.

Aquahot was another issue. They said the main controller ($900) wasn't working and replaced it. They left me the "bad" part. The annual service was supposed to have been done, I paid for it. They said it worked, the water was hot. It was 90+degrees out so,I didn't run the Diesel option. Next day we left. At our first rest stop we discovered the step was out with the engine running and the door closed. Took me a while to find that they had folded over one of the air lines and tied it up with a cable tie. No reason for them to do that that I could figure out. They claimed they didn't do it. That night we tried the diesel option on the AH. It never fired. Several back and forths with Rudy Legett, a few phone calls and the diagnosis was that there was likely nothing wrong with the controller. Rudy linked me up with John Carrillo in Denver, and AH specialist. Several calls to Jeremey Rocha weren't too helpful. He wanted to send me to somebody in ABQ. In addition I discovered all sorts of soot in the basement where the AH is located as well as greasy finger and hand prints on the four bay doors that they had been in.

In Denver, John Carrillo tested the old controller and determined it was working fine. He put that one back in and then did a normal service. The spark generator was not working. Took about three minutes to do figure that out. He took out the burner, it was very dirty obviously never cleaned. The spark points were so far out of acceptable alignment that even if everything else had been right, it never would have started. John cleaned everything, replaced the fuel nozzle (dirty, not replaced) replaced the spark coil, set the points, reassembled all of it and started it up. Fired immediately. He ran it for about 5 minutes, shut it down and then cycled it (about 5 minutes per cycle) another half dozen times. Perfect. He spent about an hour and a half on it, charged me about $120 for the annual service and whatever the spark coil was.

Another half dozen or so emails and calls to Jeremey Rocha and Corry Rucker to get them to answer or return a call and for some sort of adjustment. They finally agreed to refund all of the charges related to the AH part of the service (almost $1000) if I would send back the new controller. I did and they sent me a check pretty promptly.

It was disappointing that all of this happened. I felt that the AH part of the service was very poorly done. In the end it cost me about 400 miles, 50 gallons of fuel and an extra day of campsite fees. What I got was a good lesson, test everything before you leave. Get all of the replaced parts. Get them to show you exactly what they did. Hope that they will do a good job but verify. If you are not happy with the work, speak up, work your way up the food chain, document what you asked them to do and what they said they did. Be prepared to tell them what you expect them to do to make it right. And it never helps to be unpleasant, yell at anyone or be unreasonable. Sometimes that is hard to do.

I didn't think much of their service writer, Joshua. He didn't seem to know much about anything. Seems to me that the service writer should be pretty close to an expert on everything.

My experience at Cummins and Allison in the Twin Cities has been very good. At Cummins the service manager spent about 20 minutes when they were done showing me exactly what had been done, where all the filters were including some that they did not work on.

Bottom line is that it is the people working on your coach that make it a good experience or not. You can make it better or worse too. Check everything, test everything, don't assume anything.

I will likely go back to FOT but will give MOT a try as well. My goal is to be able to understand how things work and try to fix whatever I can myself. Then If I screw up I can look in a mirror and scold myself. Something I do frequently. But I learn from my mistakes.

I have my tools with me all the time and some of the best help around right here.

Thanks,

Roger

Re: Problems In Nacogdoches?

Reply #45 – June 01, 2014, 12:35:46 am

Quote from: Lon and Cheryl – May 31, 2014, 10:53:17 pm

I think I'm still a "points and condenser guy" at heart. I will aways miss the simplicity of the old generation cars. When those broke down you could usually get it runnin somehow and get it home.
Now, its usually a call for a tow truck if the car stops running.

Me too. It's why I bought a Jeep Wrangler, 1999 vintage. It's the only car we have that I can open the hood and see the spark plugs. All the others have to be partially (or mostly, even) disassembled to change the spark plugs.

Craig

Re: Problems In Nacogdoches?

Reply #46 – June 02, 2014, 12:32:03 pm

These horror stories are why I got out of retail repair. Tired of being compared to the high school dropout with dollar store wrenches. Had management beat me up on my performance review because I was slower than the aforementioned butcher. But my ability to learn & diagnose & repair ANYTHING that rolled or towed in was irrelevant... As was my extremely low comeback rate. Leadership starts at the top! No societal unit (doesnt matter which unit) will exceed the standards espoused & pursued by the leadership. "Monkey see, monkey do"

Re: Problems In Nacogdoches?

Reply #47 – June 02, 2014, 02:43:16 pm

"But my ability to learn & diagnose & repair ANYTHING that rolled or towed in was irrelevant... As was my extremely low comeback rate." Some of us seek out those places because we're tired of paying for three unneeded "repairs" before the real problem is identified and fixed. Of course, buying a well-cared-for high quality coach to start with helps.

Re: Problems In Nacogdoches?

Reply #48 – June 02, 2014, 05:50:36 pm

I'm missing something here. I just had my infrequent contribution to the Nacogdoches Community Stimulus Fund a couple of months ago. Routine service plus an inspection of my old roof problem (it is OK). And then the usual surprise problems, part of the steering system was worn out, etc. Steve Flanigan found me a stove cover (supposedly an unavailable part). All in all, the usual fee for camping at Camp Foretravel, a grand a day. And everything went smoothly, I had to wait a few days as I was there sans appointment .
Now, is this the same place all of these mishaps are occurring?
Cory Rucker came by the coach one afternoon and we had a long discussion about the new coaches planned for the dealer in Dallas and about the service at FOT. James Triana, Mark Harvey (who drove my coach on a test drive after the steering gear repair) area all around. I just am shocked by these reports here. Am I just lucky?

Re: Problems In Nacogdoches?

Reply #49 – June 02, 2014, 08:10:41 pm

I had both wind shields and gaskets replaced a year and half ago. Bob Ireland did the job. He repaired a problem that had caused the w/s shifting since I had the this coach. Also ground the proper clearance for the w/s, I had this coach 14 years. Good job, Bob, Foretravel. George.

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