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Re: AGM Battery Homework

Reply #25 –
Is it possible to avoid the desulfation stage with the PD charger? Even thought the voltage might be fine (Different specs by different manufacturers... not all AGM's call for the same voltage, though most are fine with the the flooded settings), I would be very careful about the storage setting that bumps up the voltage for short periods to stir up the electrolyte! Most of the AGM/Gel literature that I have looked at say that is verboten... though I don't have a handy reference to prove it. Maybe 15 minutes per day wouldn't hurt, but AFIK, only the pulse type desulfators are safe to use on Gel or AGM batteries, and there those who question the value of that. I wish I knew for sure...
Don
Quote from: prfleming –
I called Progressive Dynamics and their tech support told me a jumper can be put on the board that drops the voltage 0.4 volts to make the charger compatible with gel batteries, but the charger is fine for wet and AGM batteries without it.
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Don & Tys
1999 U270 3602 WTFE #5402
Xtreme Stage 1 w/Headlight, Step Conversion, etc.
2009 Honda Fit Sport with Navi
Freedom is NOT "just another word for nothing left to lose"... with apologies to Kris Kristofferson

Re: AGM Battery Homework

Reply #26 –
Don, In my case, I don't leave the charger plugged in for extended periods, so the desulfation should not be an issue. Definitely a good thing to be aware of for any PD charger owners out there.  Thanks for all the good battery discussion, I think I will try to get a couple of AGMs soon, as soon as I can afford it.  :))
Peter and Tammy Fleming
1991 U300 GV 40 - Sold, owned for 4 years
Downsized to Roadtrek Popular 210 class B

Re: AGM Battery Homework

Reply #27 –
I thought that without the pendant the desulfation mode on the PD chargers didn't come on. Maybe someone has some definitive information on that. I'll worry about all that when I decide which battery types to go with. I only (!) need two 8D size and if I go to Lithium I'll need to pad th area as lithiums are much smaller.

This is a terrific thread. Many thanks for all the ideas.

Craig
1993 U225 36' Unihome GV with PACBRAKE exhaust retarder, Banks Stinger and Solar Panels.
Toad: 1999 Jeep Wrangler 2-door soft-top.

"No one has ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke."

Re: AGM Battery Homework

Reply #28 –
Over 3 yrs ago I bought 3 Lifeline 8ds from AMSOLAR when the first panels were installed and with the solar controller they have been working very well. I did do some changes as noted before (copper Bus Bars for equal charge etc) and each battery has a Pulse type Desulphator. I never have to think about them being charged and I have no reason to believe they are not doing what they are supposed to do. The system was not cheap but much better investment than having an Aqua hot to replace or service.
When away in coach we live off these batteries daily and have  paid for themselves by not paying to plug in and pay RV Park rates etc. This has made for a much more enjoyable use of our coach and we are able to go pretty much anywere we want. Very small output for so much gain. Price of 3 or 4 of these things is equal to less than 2 months(or less) of sitting in a boring RV Park plugged in!
IMHO
JohnH
Coachless, now use aircraft. 2003 Ford Travelair TC280 class C. Super shape. Just for 1 yr .
1994 Ford E350 ClassC,total renovation inside and out. Now sold.
2000 U295  36' Cummins 350 c/w Banks Stinger, Resonator upgrade,Solar, LED lites.Residential fridge with slide out pantry. Build 5674. Sold
ex 92 GV 022C ored Cummins. Sold
ex 95 GV240 cat 3116. Sold
2017 Mini cooper s & 2016 land Rover LR2 HSE  LUX.
jhaygarth@aol.com    SKP #130098
treat everyone as you would like to be.

Re: AGM Battery Homework

Reply #29 –
Have to agree, spent some time up north boondocking, never started the gen. once. Used propane for fridge and stovetop,
but toaster, microwave, coffeepot, tv, stereo, fans, etc., all off batteries and inverters. Solar panels and big engine kept everything charged up fine for the whole trip. Only problem with living in the south, is that you need gen or shore power for ac in the summer.
100f. again today in Houston.

Jim
Jim C.
coachfree, previous 1997, 1999, 2000, and 2003 Foretravels.

Re: AGM Battery Homework

Reply #30 –
Craig

I pulled out my PD manual and it states that the 9200 series converters all have the "Charge Wizard" controlled charging module built in. The Charge Wizard constantly monitors the battery condition and has 4 operating modes - BOOST, NORMAL, STORAGE and EQUALIZE. EQUALIZE is 15 minutes of BOOST every 21 hours. The Pendant provides temporary manual override of the operating modes, and has an indicator light to indicate the mode of operation. The converter will return to the automatic modes when the battery charge status changes. It's interesting that the secret Gel battery jumper is not mentioned anywhere...

Here is the manual online PD9200 Series Manual
Peter and Tammy Fleming
1991 U300 GV 40 - Sold, owned for 4 years
Downsized to Roadtrek Popular 210 class B

Re: AGM Battery Homework

Reply #31 –
So the PD will probably still work ok for AGM batteries but if I move to LiFePo I'll probably have to move to a more configurable charger/converter. The other alternative is to simply let the solar panels do all the house battery charging all the time. I may also move to Brett's idea of installing marine-type battery switches to make sure I know what devices are charging what batteries. Two of those should do the trick.

Thanks. :)
1993 U225 36' Unihome GV with PACBRAKE exhaust retarder, Banks Stinger and Solar Panels.
Toad: 1999 Jeep Wrangler 2-door soft-top.

"No one has ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke."

Re: AGM Battery Homework

Reply #32 –
Craig, I have solar do all the charging as I have inverter charge switch off all the time even when I have the coach plugged in at home for 120 if I am doing some work and need the power.
John
Coachless, now use aircraft. 2003 Ford Travelair TC280 class C. Super shape. Just for 1 yr .
1994 Ford E350 ClassC,total renovation inside and out. Now sold.
2000 U295  36' Cummins 350 c/w Banks Stinger, Resonator upgrade,Solar, LED lites.Residential fridge with slide out pantry. Build 5674. Sold
ex 92 GV 022C ored Cummins. Sold
ex 95 GV240 cat 3116. Sold
2017 Mini cooper s & 2016 land Rover LR2 HSE  LUX.
jhaygarth@aol.com    SKP #130098
treat everyone as you would like to be.

Re: AGM Battery Homework

Reply #33 –
Quote from: prfleming –
Don, In my case, I don't leave the charger plugged in for extended periods, so the desulfation should not be an issue. Definitely a good thing to be aware of for any PD charger owners out there.  Thanks for all the good battery discussion, I think I will try to get a couple of AGMs soon, as soon as I can afford it.  :))
Quote from: wa_desert_rat –
I thought that without the pendant the desulfation mode on the PD chargers didn't come on. Maybe someone has some definitive information on that. I'll worry about all that when I decide which battery types to go with. I only (!) need two 8D size and if I go to Lithium I'll need to pad th area as lithiums are much smaller.

This is a terrific thread. Many thanks for all the ideas.

Craig

I have the Progressive Dynamics Inteli-Power 9160A charger.  It came with the coach when I bought it in 2012.  I added the Charge Wizard Pendant on the sage advice from Dave Head.  The 9100 series chargers are not smart chargers until you add the Charge Wizard Pendant to automatically adjust the the converter output.  It will stay in Normal Mode (13.6v) all the time when plugged in.  The Charge Wizard gives you the 4 operating modes:  Normal, Boost, Storage, and Desulfation.  The manual states:

Normal Mode - Converter output voltage Is 13.6 VDC.This voltage maintains your batteries while the RV is being used and 120 VAC is available from the shore power or the RV generator.

Boost Mode - Charge Wizard automatically increases converter output to 14.4 VDC when it senses your battery is heavily discharged.  This mode will recharge your battery to 90% of full charge in 2-3 hours which is about 300% faster than other products.  After your battery reached 90% of full charge Charge Wizard automatically returns the Inteli-Power 9100 series converter to the Normal Mode to safely complete the charge.

Storage Mode - If Charge Wizard senses no battery activity for approximately 30 hours, it selects Storage Mode and reduces the converter output to 13.2 VDC.  This maintains the charge on your batteries and prevents excess gassing and waterloss.  The Storage Mode allows the RV to be connected to 120 VAC power continuously without worrying about overcharging.

Desulfation Mode - Automatically selected every 21 hours while Charge Wizard is set in the Storage Mode and increases the converter to 14.4 VDC for 15 minutes.  This mode prevents battery stratification, sulfating, and loss of capacity (useful life).

The PO of my coach was not pro-active on maintenance of the batteries.  I found where he did replace the house batteries in 2007 with Interstate 8D-XHD wet cells.  Without the Charge Wizard and no maintenance they lasted 5 years.  I replaced them with another set of Interstates purchased from Firestone.  With a $100 Firestone discount and 6 mo. no interest total cost was $310 for both of them!  They weigh 123lbs. but I can still muscle them out of the battery compartment without slide trays.  I pull them out once a year and test the cells, water level, clean connections etc.  I also wire brush, rust treat and paint the compartment.  I also added a Trik-l-Start to the house batteries for the chassis batteries (Optima Blue Tops) which keeps them maintained.  So far all is good and I expect a much longer battery life this time around.  My battery requirements are not heavy because I don't full time yet and I can only take a couple of trips a year.  When the time comes I will add solar and probably go to AGM's, etc.

Jerry

Here's a video from PPL on Inteli-Power 9100 and 9200 series.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4R_9dn4nKs
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Jerry and Cindy Maddux
1993 U300/36WTBI DD6v92TA
build 4271  "Miss Lou"
1995 suzuki sidekick 4x4 toad
Gulfport, Ms

"Pride of Ownership"

Re: AGM Battery Homework

Reply #34 –
Quote from: wa_desert_rat –
I thought that without the pendant the desulfation mode on the PD chargers didn't come on. Maybe someone has some definitive information on that. I'll worry about all that when I decide which battery types to go with. I only (!) need two 8D size and if I go to Lithium I'll need to pad th area as lithiums are much smaller.

This is a terrific thread. Many thanks for all the ideas.

Craig

For what it's worth I had a 45amp progressive dynamics with the 3 stage charging built in (without pendant).  I watched the voltages and it definitely went into temporary high voltage equalization mode once or twice a day.

EDIT Now I see that many have also indicated the 9200 series has that built in with or without pendant.

Re: AGM Battery Homework

Reply #35 –
This topic certainly has my attention. I have a Prosine 2500 inverter charger which states in the manual that it has a setting for either Gel or flooded type battery.  I think I have AGM house batteries (all grey, top and sides) nothing on them to indicate brand that I could see; and the starter batteries seem to be AGM red top. 

Now the house batteries need replacing as there are waves in the plastic body on the sides, although the "battery minder" does not say "weak"  when pulse charging as it does hooked up to the starting batteries.

So, if when I take out the house batteries and find them to be AGM, it is then OK to replace them with AGM?  or should I go with GEL and find out how to put the setting on the prosine to "GEL"?

LIFELINES where I'm at are just under 1200 each cdn.  Trojan about 750,  (8D's) and MCA Chinese 650 which claim just under the lifeline specs.  I'll be replacing 3 8D's for house batteries and 3 red tops for start, so would appreciate your thoughts.  We fulltime but are most often hooked to shore power. After reading the thread I'm not so sure I should not wait till around an O'reillys even with the poor exchange rate.  Tom
2000  42 U320 DGFE full body paint/modified front lower cap, Build# 5742
2004 C-RV Toad
Tom and Mary, Trouble & Mr. Pants

Re: AGM Battery Homework

Reply #36 –
How many amp hours can you get out of your house batteries before your generator autostarts?  That's the key measure for house battery replacement.  You can go with AGM's if you feel you've gotten satisfactory life from you current ones.
Regards,
Brett

'99 42' Foretravel Xtreme
'14 Brown Motorsports Stacker
'05 Chevy SSR
'02 BMW R1150R

Re: AGM Battery Homework

Reply #37 –
Quote from: crosscountry –
This topic certainly has my attention. I have a Prosine 2500 inverter charger which states in the manual that it has a setting for either Gel or flooded type battery.  I think I have AGM house batteries (all grey, top and sides) nothing on them to indicate brand that I could see; and the starter batteries seem to be AGM red top. 
The all grey house batteries are MK Gels made by East Pen. The AGM versions have black tops. If the cases are really bulging, there may be a problem. If the cases are just a bit wavy but not cracked or breached, it may not be a problem. The only way to tell for sure is load testing a fully charged battery isolated from the battery bank. They may be at the end of their useful life without a dead cell issue or internal short. In other words, running out of amp hours.

The choice to replace with Gels or AGM's is up to you. Gels have a better deep cycling capacity than typical (East Penn) AGM's, but are harder to come by and a bit more costly. I happen to think that AGM's made by East Penn under whatever lable are a cost effective solution and that is why I bought four of them. In my view, the trick is to simply avoid overly deep discharges, or more than 50%. My target is no more than 25% depth of discharge, which is why I bought four new batteries even though our coach came with just two. With four 12v 8D batteries to share the load there will be no need to go as deep into the discharge cycle overnight.

When LifPo4 (a lithium based battery, but not the same chemistry as the ones in laptops or phones) comes of age, I will repurpose the AGM's I just bought (assuming they last long enough) and go that route for the much better deep cycling off grid capability with half the weight. It could be done now, and from a numbers perspective, may even be cost effective over the expected lifetime of the batteries. But I would have had to forego too many other upgrades to justify it just now.
Don
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Don & Tys
1999 U270 3602 WTFE #5402
Xtreme Stage 1 w/Headlight, Step Conversion, etc.
2009 Honda Fit Sport with Navi
Freedom is NOT "just another word for nothing left to lose"... with apologies to Kris Kristofferson

Re: AGM Battery Homework

Reply #38 –
The li-ion stuff is the long term fix.  Some bus converters are using two northstar li-ion already.

$6k retail each.  No voltage drop until they shut off.

The Mk guy mentioned a life doubling change in the construction done several years ago.
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4