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Topic: No start, with Allison "snake eyes" (Problem Solved) (Read 21401 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: HELP! No start, with Allison "snake eyes".

Reply #25 –
I understood that snake eyes and shifter not working are separate issues, I was says if you don't know what is wrong have someone check it out that does know what they are doing.  It was free for the check out.  As for as the $2700 fix, when on Galveston beach, this was a quick, easy and the only fix.  As far as the repair on the shifter, I don't think you can get it repaired quickly or for less cost.  Stewart& Stevenson does not repair them( at least in Houston Location).
Pat/Blue Angel
1995 U240 36ft
MC# 16511
Build# 4653

Re: HELP! No start, with Allison "snake eyes".

Reply #26 –
When in a pickle you pay. I understand. BUT, Stewart and Stevenson are not Allison ECM experts. Transmission Instruments is. Your brother probably did not have this information. John does not just fix the snake eye problem but everything that has to do with Allison except the tranny itself. When I had snake eyes, my first call was to the horses mouth at Allison. "Bad ECM" they said and can not be repaired. "$3000 please and we'll send you a new one."

For anyone having issues with keypad and/or ECM, Transmission Instruments should be the first call. And he guarantees for a year.
1994 U280, Build 4490
Deming, NM.

Re: HELP! No start, with Allison "snake eyes".

Reply #27 –
Quote from: Twig –
And he guarantees for a year.
Actually, 2 years!  Got my package (ECU and shift pad) mailed off to his shop today.  ^.^d

"Transmission Instruments cover all rebuilds as complete unit for 2 years by our Common Sense Warranty - we do not cover theft, fire, collision damage, improper installation or damages occuring beyond normal use, etc. Warranty returns must include your written reason for return."
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"Nature abhors a vacuum"

Re: HELP! No start, with Allison "snake eyes".

Reply #28 –
This is what I sent in for repair.  When I removed the components, the connectors (pins and plugs) were absolutely pristine - no sign of any dirt or corrosion.  I am certain my "glitch" is internal to one of the 2 boxes, and will quickly be rectified by John Kopalek.
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"Nature abhors a vacuum"

Re: HELP! No start, with Allison "snake eyes".

Reply #29 –
Howdy Chuck, 
Good pictures with a great background!!
Good Luck with your transmission issues, Dave A
Dave and Nancy Abel
'00 U320 36' WTFE  Build #5669
'10 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon
Livingston, TX  SKP's Fulltiming

Re: HELP! No start, with Allison "snake eyes".

Reply #30 –
I was thinking about the connectors on those two components I removed.  They are very high quality looking gear...sized so they fit the sockets tight, AND they have o-rings on the plugs to seal out the elements.  They are obviously designed for much more challenging conditions than would be found under the dash, inside a motorhome.  I find it hard to believe that there could ever be a corrosion problem on the pins or the plugs, unless they had been disconnected and left "open" for a long time, or possibly submerged under water.  What I'm saying is, if you notice any strange transmission symptoms and some tech tells you it is being caused by "corroded connections" on the equipment located inside the coach, I would most certainly get a second opinion!

Photos:  single plug goes to shift pad, double plugs go to ECU:
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"Nature abhors a vacuum"

Re: HELP! No start, with Allison "snake eyes".

Reply #31 –
I found this reference source - may be of interest or use in case of future trans problems.  WTEC II and WTEC III are the Allison controller models commonly found in 90's era Foretravel coaches.  WTEC II remote shifter pad has 2 gear position indicators, WTEC III has a single gear indicator.  Note the first few pages of the catalog show wiring harness diagrams - may or may not be comparable to the one in your coach.  Page 25-26 shows the ECU connectors depicted in my photos above, and page 43 shows the shift pad connector.

http://www.usbid.com/datasheets/dsid/179041.pdf

Items in the catalog may be available for purchase at the St. Clair Technologies Web Store:

http://shopsct.com/autocompkit.aspx
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"Nature abhors a vacuum"

Re: HELP! No start, with Allison "snake eyes".

Reply #32 –
I think johns mention of reconnecting the plugs applies more to the after sept 94 upgraded units.

I mentioned the hair dryer fix and he said after the above date the units had better sealing.

My codes being extremely intermittent was when he mentioned reinserted the plugs as a way to lessen the chance of a recurring issue.

Apparently looks may not have validity in the circuitry.

Different codes.  Different models.  Later production.

If my guru and I clean and reinsert the connectors ten times and it never shows snake eyes again that may or may not have been MY issues.

We are also checking the power to the trans but john discounted that area in our conversations.

Turning my ignition on the off then back on generated a set of neutral lights every time.  So probably no permanent type failures.  More subtle it seems.

"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: HELP! No start, with Allison "snake eyes".

Reply #33 –
We had a retard problem that took 3 days to find and it ended up being a single wire with a crimped on thin 'pin' male end.  This male end is one of the many wires on the Allison ECU multipin connector.  Many single pin'd wires are pushed into one side of the ECU connector, and the other side of the ECU connector plugs into the ECU.
Pin was lightly touching the ECU connector, but not pushed all the way in.  All computer diagnostics 'saw' a good circuit from retarder to ECU, but there was not enough pin to connector surface contact to carry the necessary amps to actuate the retard solenoid.

Re: HELP! No start, with Allison "snake eyes".

Reply #34 –
My airplane tech buddy mentioned those issues many times
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: HELP! No start, with Allison "snake eyes".

Reply #35 –
Update:  The repair shop called yesterday and said my ECU and shift pad are fixed and headed back to me.  I mailed the box to them on Tuesday the 18th (Priority Mail) and they got it Thursday morning the 20th.  Yesterday, (Friday the 21st) they got it sent out late in the day, and it will arrive here Monday the 24th.  So, less than 2 full days in the shop to repair both modules.  Not bad.  I will make one final update after I get the parts reinstalled, and see how they work.  Fingers crossed!

One funny note:  I mailed my box to them USPS Priority Mail, and "accepted" the standard $50 insurance coverage.  I see on the UPS tracking notification for the return shipment that their box is insured for $4000.  I guess they think the rebuilt parts are a bit more valuable!
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"Nature abhors a vacuum"

No start, with Allison "snake eyes" (Problem Solved)

Reply #36 –
Final update:  I got my rebuilt ECU and shift pad reinstalled this morning - soon as I turned key to "ON" the nice bright "N" for neutral popped up on both gear indicators.  Problem (appears to be) solved!  Of course, only time, and mileage, will tell for sure.  We went out today to top off the fuel tank and exercise the beast.  Engine started perfectly, gears shifted normally, all is good.  ^.^d

I also received a totally unexpected BONUS when I installed the rebuilt Allison equipment.  Way back in Sept. of last year, I started a thread about my annunciator going off constantly, and for no apparent reason.  Here is the thread if you're curious:

Annunciator Trouble

I never figured out what was causing the audible alarm, so all this time I have had the noise box muted.  Well, today I had the dash cover up while I was reconnecting the shift pad.  As I started to put it back down, I decided to try "un-muting" the annunciator to see if it was still squawking.  Guess what - IT WAS SILENT!  Somehow, getting the Allison equipment rebuilt also cured my constant alarm.  I can only theorize that the two things were somehow related.  Anyway, I am happy to have my turn signal noise maker back, even if it is irritating.  8)
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"Nature abhors a vacuum"

Re: No start, with Allison "snake eyes" (Problem Solved)

Reply #37 –
Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie –
Anyway, I am happy to have my turn signal noise maker back, even if it is irritating.  8)
We refer to the annunciator as the "geezer alarm." My son gave me that term after I described the turn signal alarm on the Suburban which chimes if I leave the turn signal on too long. (I was at the edge of my "geezer years" when he introduced me to the term.)

The first time we test drove a Foretravel, my first comment was, "Oh! It has a geezer alarm!" This comment was made at the first use of a turn signal.

The alarm is indeed irritating at times, but has alerted a lot of owners to problems that would have developed into more serious issues if not noticed early.

Congratulations on a successful resolution the problem of "snake eyes" on the Allison pad! Thanks for sharing and carefully describing your experience.
J D Stevens
1997 U295 CAI 36' Build #5085
2002 Subaru Outback
Motorcade 16869
Bellville, TX

Re: No start, with Allison "snake eyes" (Problem Solved)

Reply #38 –
What was the final cost of the rebuilt parts?
1995 U320C SE 40'
Jeep 4x4 Commander - Limited - Hemi
"The Pack"  Yogi and Diesel our Airedales -  Charlie our Boxer/Akita mix. Gone but NEVER forgotten Jake our yellow Lab.
NRA Law Enforcement Firearms instructor - Handgun/shotgun
Regional Firearms instructor for national Armored Transp. Co.

Re: No start, with Allison "snake eyes" (Problem Solved)

Reply #39 –
Quote from: Lon and Cheryl –
What was the final cost of the rebuilt parts?
Total cost was 0.709 Coach Bucks.  Kinda pricey, but the only alternative is buying new parts, IF they are available.  Price breakdown:

Repair of ECU:                                  $495
Repair of remote module:                  $159
UPS Ground + Insurance ($4000):    $  55

http://www.transmissioninstruments.com/pricing.html
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"Nature abhors a vacuum"

Re: No start, with Allison "snake eyes" (Problem Solved)

Reply #40 –
He raised his prices again. When I sent mine in he did the ECM and the pushbutton selector for $495. What's a remote module?
1994 U280, Build 4490
Deming, NM.

Re: No start, with Allison "snake eyes" (Problem Solved)

Reply #41 –
Quote from: Twig –
What's a remote module?
Remote module = pushbutton selector.  The way I understand it, in some applications the shift pad (pushbutton selector) is attached to (or it is actually part of) the ECU.  On my coach it is "remote", i.e. not directly attached.

As to price increase, what isn't going up?  Since John Kopalek is basically the only game in town, it's fortunate (?) they aren't even higher.
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"Nature abhors a vacuum"

Re: No start, with Allison "snake eyes" (Problem Solved)

Reply #42 –
Quote from: Chuck & Jeannie –
Total cost was 0.709 Coach Bucks.  Kinda pricey, but the only alternative is buying new parts, IF they are available.  Price breakdown:

Repair of ECU:                                  $495
Repair of remote module:                  $159
UPS Ground + Insurance ($4000):    $  55

http://www.transmissioninstruments.com/pricing.html

When compared to the alternative (new factory) This is a bargain!
1995 U320C SE 40'
Jeep 4x4 Commander - Limited - Hemi
"The Pack"  Yogi and Diesel our Airedales -  Charlie our Boxer/Akita mix. Gone but NEVER forgotten Jake our yellow Lab.
NRA Law Enforcement Firearms instructor - Handgun/shotgun
Regional Firearms instructor for national Armored Transp. Co.