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Topic: Delamination Issue (Read 2211 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Delamination Issue

Reply #25
Brett have seen 3 or 4 GV 's late 80's models with same delam issues as ours in Arizona the past 5 years.  These are West Coast coaches not exposed to that much weather.  From what I gather the glue used was just old yellow contact cement the kind used to cement  Formica to plywood for counter tops.
What areas were delaminated (again talking about the fiberglass "skin" pulling loose from the metal framework)?

Easy to tell early in the morning with dew on the coach, as you should see each metal beam. Also, there will be a bulge and you should be able to push on it and move the sidewall back into its proper plane.
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Delamination Issue

Reply #26
Delam I am referring to is massive, the entire side panel has become de-bonded from the steel frame.  Very easy to detect just walk down the side pushing on the skin, if it doesn't move your ok, if it flexes in and out, it's de-bonded.  For further info just Google  RV delamination repair 
1988  40' Grand Villa Cat 3208t

Re: Delamination Issue

Reply #27
When buying two FTs, found that white coach surface temp 99 degrees and dark coach next door was 167 degrees.  Then got to looking a painted stripes on coaches.  You do not need my IR gun to test, just hold your hand on the two.

That said, while temperature may have some role, perhaps it not on the delam but only the crazing.  Either way, you can think of it just in cooling the coach.  FOT said it not matter and it what people want

Mike
2001 U320 4010 Build 5878 (Gus)
Wrangle Unlimited Toad
Nacogdoches

Re: Delamination Issue

Reply #28
Shot of delam of entire left side 88 GV and rt. front
1988  40' Grand Villa Cat 3208t

Re: Delamination Issue

Reply #29
What areas were delaminated (again talking about the fiberglass "skin" pulling loose from the metal framework)?

Easy to tell early in the morning with dew on the coach, as you should see each metal beam. Also, there will be a bulge and you should be able to push on it and move the sidewall back into its proper plane.
Just to clarify, if you see the steel beams with dew it means you don't have delam?
'07 Phenix Double slide, Bunk beds, 42'
'14 Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon

Re: Delamination Issue

Reply #30
Just to clarify, if you see the steel beams with dew it means you don't have delam?
Correct.  Because of the temperature transfer from the interior, the steel beams will be outlined on many mornings. 

If you see a break in the lines where you know there is a beam (shows above/below or in front of/aft of) then the fiberglass has separated from the steel.
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: Delamination Issue

Reply #31
Phew, I definitely see mine. I think the tern delamination has two meanings.

From what I have lerned so far is delamination has two forms 1. the entire sidewall separating from the frame or 2. seperation happening from the layers of the sidewall.

I am curious about the later, especially from the rounded corners/edges of the slide outs.
'07 Phenix Double slide, Bunk beds, 42'
'14 Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon

Re: Delamination Issue

Reply #32
FYI  Google Filon siding lawsuit        should answer your questions pertaining to the delam of the fiberglass panel, now the delam or de-bonding of the FRP from the steel frame is what I am talking about.
1988  40' Grand Villa Cat 3208t

Re: Delamination Issue

Reply #33
I don't think FT is or has used Filon for exterior sidewalls.

From a composites point of view, delamination is a break between the laminations that make up a fiberglass layup.  Gel coat then a chopped glass mat in resin, woven fabrics or unidirectional fiberglass layers in resin, roll out, repeat. If the interlayer stresses exceed the strength of the cured resin it will fracture and a delamination occurs.  When the adhesive bond between something (perhaps a steel wall structure and the foam insulation between the frame members)  to a fiberglass skin (or wing skin stiffeners bonded to graphite/epoxy aircraft wing skin) this is a bond line failure.

When the adhesive bond between the steel framing or the insulation fails the fiberglass skin feels loose, like there is a bubble behind it (there is, air).  You can push it in and it pops back out. This can be a fairly small area or a large one.  The fix is reattaching the fibergalss panel to the underlying structure.  Most attempts at trying to add or inject new adhesives will fail.  Removing the loose panel and doing a wet layup with appropriate resins is usually the best fix,

In some cases water infiltration into a fiberglass laminate will cause the resin to break down and cause a delamination or the bond lines to fail. Again, removing the damaged section and doing a new wet layup is the best fix.  This type of delamination is common on the roof new roof  penetrations or in side walls near windows, the refrigerator vent, sometimes the dryer vent.  Water is the enemy.

This can happen to any fiberglass structure, any motorhome, any Foretravel of any age.  You will only get an entire sidewall to debond or have delaminations if every warning sign, every beginning problem, every maintenance has been ignored for a long time.

So just like anything else on your coach, learn what to look for, do an inspection a couple times a year, make sure your seals and caulking especially on the roof are in good shape.  If you see a problem, don't panic, don't blame Foretravel, get someone who knows what they are doing to look at and get it fixed sooner than later.  If you have some body damage, a crack or something, it is a place for water to get in.  Seal it up or better, get it repaired.

Your coach is like a living organism.  To keep it healthy, it needs love, respect, care and maintenance, occasionally a bit of surgery, sometimes a part replaced or rebuilt, sometimes a heart tranplant.  Unlike a living organism it cannot heal itself, it depends on you for its health and well being.  If you get sick are you going to blame your maker?  Go off on a rant? Maybe because you are angry at first, but if you want to live you will do what is needed, fix what is needed, be happy with the best possible outcome and get on with life. Same with your coach.  It is likely the best one you will ever own.  Treat it very well and it returns the favor with every adventure.

Roger
Roger Engdahl and Susan Green
2001 U320 3610 #5879 (Home2) - 2014 Jeep Cherokee or 2018 F150
Hastings, MN

Re: Delamination Issue

Reply #34
Exactly right Roger! Foretravel DID NOT use Filon for the outside of the walls or roof. Aside from the fact that I asked Rance about it (he told me that it was only used on the basement floor skins and compartment walls/dividers), Filon is color through (usually white). If you cut it, the cut edges are solid white. The Filon used in RV's is usually .065" thick. If you take a cross section of the coach sidewall, such as the Foretravel sandwich that came from my dryer vent hole, you can see the thin white gel coat that is the outside layer. That gel coat is over the translucent brownish/red layer of resin infused with glass fibers and is much thicker than the gel coat layer. Those two are really one composite layer, maybe ⅛" thick or so. On the the other side of the two layers of insulation is a layer of Filon which underlies the ¼" plywood inside wall. So they do use some IN the wall, but you will never see it unless you cut a hole, remove a window, or remove the wood paneling from the inside of an outside wall.
Don
I don't think FT is or has used Filon for sidewalls.
Roger

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Don & Tys
1999 U270 3602 WTFE #5402
Xtreme Stage 1 w/Headlight, Step Conversion, etc.
2009 Honda Fit Sport with Navi
Freedom is NOT "just another word for nothing left to lose"... with apologies to Kris Kristofferson

Re: Delamination Issue

Reply #35
the outer skin of any Foretravel is produced at the factory


That may only be true for coaches produced prior to the current owners:

Source: Wow How The Business Model Has Changed

March 2006 issue of "Manufacturing in Action:"

Quote
Fiberglass skins for sidewalls, done previously by hand on the premises, are now outsourced.

Doug & Steph Hackney
Researching Foretravel
44 countries - most by motorcycle
2007 Fuso 4x4 / Bigfoot expedition vehicle (sold)

Re: Delamination Issue

Reply #36
Brett have seen 3 or 4 GV 's late 80's models with same delam issues as ours in Arizona the past 5 years.  These are West Coast coaches not exposed to that much weather.  From what I gather the glue used was just old yellow contact cement the kind used to cement  Formica to plywood for counter tops.

Weather strip adhesive,  good stuff
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: Delamination Issue

Reply #37
Trim Cement won't work, it flashes off too fast.
1988  40' Grand Villa Cat 3208t

Re: Delamination Issue

Reply #38
There appears to be a difference in the lay up schedule between Dons 99 and my 97.  The layup when we removed the windows did not have the outer fiberglass seen in your core.

On our coach the adhesive that was used in the cap had failed in the windshield area.  When we replaced the drivers side windshield they would not guarantee it would not fail.  Both pieces were removed and adhesive reapplied and clamped in place.  I found the same issue with the door when that window was done.  It was not in either case true delamination but separation of skin from frame. 
George and Steph
1997 U270 36 Build 5081 "Honu"
1180w Solar 400A lithium all Victron house system
Motorcade 17670, SKP 128300, FMCA F459019
73 VW Camper, 79 VW Camper, 2363 Sunline, and an Arctic Fox 25P


Re: Delamination Issue

Reply #40
The work to adventure ratio is incredibly one-sided.

Not sure what you mean by that.  We spend vastly more time traveling than working on our coach. And most work on it is an adventure anyway. 
Roger Engdahl and Susan Green
2001 U320 3610 #5879 (Home2) - 2014 Jeep Cherokee or 2018 F150
Hastings, MN

Re: Delamination Issue

Reply #41
There appears to be a difference in the lay up schedule between Dons 99 and my 97.  The layup when we removed the windows did not have the outer fiberglass seen in your core.
Are you referring to the 1/2" thick yellow layer in Don's photo?  That is not fiberglass, but a different kind of foam.  I was told FT did something different in the wall lay up starting in 1998.  If I recall it was to improve the thermal properties but I'm really not sure.  Anyone else up on this?
John Fitzgerald
1991 U300 (SAI) Side Aisle Island Bed 40'
Detroit 6V92 with Allison Retarder
Meridian (Boise), Idaho

Re: Delamination Issue

Reply #42
Here is a better picture of the sidewall dryer hole plug. The gelcoat is barely visible on the right, because it is very thin in cross section. The dark reddish brown layer next to it is the glass fiber infused substrate and is really one with the gelcoat. Delamination/debonding occurs between the gelcoat/laid-up fiberglass layer and the insulation or steel framing. The apprx. 9/16" layer of brown rigid foam insulation is much denser and harder than the blue styrofoam insulation next to it. I imagine that this harder insulation helps create a more rigid wall structure than the blue styrofoam by itself, but that is just speculation on my part. The blue styrofoam layer is 1" thick. The filon layer next to it is about a sixteenth of inch and the left most luan plywood is a hair under a quarter inch. The plug looks a bit different because I coated the cross section of the plug with some epoxy as test to see if the insulation would melt, before I glued the basement skin back on during my bulkhead repair. Though I replaced most of the blue styrofoam insulation in the basement floor with polyurethane foam insulation (because diesel had melted much of the blue stuff near the fuel tank and in adjacent areas), there was still a few sections that were left that I didn't remove, so I wanted to make sure that the stuff wouldn't melt from the epoxy resin I wanted to use. It did not.
Don
Are you referring to the 1/2" thick yellow layer in Don's photo?  That is not fiberglass, but a different kind of foam.  I was told FT did something different in the wall lay up starting in 1998.  If I recall it was to improve the thermal properties but I'm really not sure.  Anyone else up on this?
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Don & Tys
1999 U270 3602 WTFE #5402
Xtreme Stage 1 w/Headlight, Step Conversion, etc.
2009 Honda Fit Sport with Navi
Freedom is NOT "just another word for nothing left to lose"... with apologies to Kris Kristofferson

Re: Delamination Issue

Reply #43
Here is a better picture of the sidewall dryer hole plug. The gelcoat is barely visible on the right, because it is very thin in cross section. The dark reddish brown layer next to it is the glass fiber infused substrate and is really one with the gelcoat. Delamination/debonding occurs between the gelcoat/laid-up fiberglass layer and the insulation or steel framing. The apprx. 9/16" layer of brown rigid foam insulation is much denser and harder than the blue styrofoam insulation next to it. I imagine that this harder insulation helps create a more rigid wall structure than the blue styrofoam by itself, but that is just speculation on my part. The blue styrofoam layer is 1" thick. The filon layer next to it is about a sixteenth of inch and the left most luan plywood is a hair under a quarter inch. The plug looks a bit different because I coated the cross section of the plug with some epoxy as test to see if the insulation would melt, before I glued the basement skin back on during my bulkhead repair. Though I replaced most of the blue styrofoam insulation in the basement floor with polyurethane foam insulation (because diesel had melted much of the blue stuff near the fuel tank and in adjacent areas), there was still a few sections that were left that I didn't remove, so I wanted to make sure that the stuff wouldn't melt from the epoxy resin I wanted to use. It did not.
Don

I wonder if the wall material change was to help with the coming painted coaches?  And slides?

The coaches had 1 1/2 blue styrofoam r7 since the earth cooled with mostly good results. 
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4