WANTED: Foretravel with "Bus" front end

Topic: WANTED: Foretravel with "Bus" front end (Read 3419 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: WANTED: Foretravel with "Bus" front end

Reply #25 – September 09, 2016, 09:19:15 am

Oh my, what have I done?

Just put a deposit on a 199x U270. Going next week to inspect it.

The good:
Decent price. I cannot divulge it since the deal is not done yet.
The transmission was replaced about five years ago.

The bad:
It's running a little rough at idle, shaking the whole coach, but runs smooth at-speed. Probably needs new injectors and a new timing chain.
Paint fade
It has high miles on it.
Engine condition is unknown.
Does not have dual-pane windows, but that could be easily rectified with an unknown number of CBs

Where do I poke my head to look at the bulkhead?

Re: WANTED: Foretravel with "Bus" front end

Reply #26 – September 09, 2016, 09:24:09 am

Tim,

Not sure "poking you head" will reveal the condition of the bulkheads.

Here is more comprehensive discussion of the bulkheads: Bulkhead Repair-- A Comprehensive Look

And, no idea where you/the coach are, but as with any large purchase, paying a professional to inspect it would be money well spend. That is exactly what I do when buying a house, large boat.......

Re: WANTED: Foretravel with "Bus" front end

Reply #27 – September 09, 2016, 10:31:57 am

If this is the coach on RVT.com have a good diesel mechanic look at the engine, you could be looking at a dad injector,bad fuel return check valve, bad lift pump, or worst of all bad injection pump, and Cummins engines don't have timing chains.

Re: WANTED: Foretravel with "Bus" front end

Reply #28 – September 09, 2016, 11:27:56 am

199x needs to be defined. If its a 99, then it should have a pricey caps pump. Earlier and a reliable and cheap P pump.

Id get cummins to look it over before agreeing on a price. It has the possibility to get very expensive.

Re: WANTED: Foretravel with "Bus" front end

Reply #29 – September 09, 2016, 12:58:22 pm

Valves and injectors are supposed to be done every 100k miles

Our electronic m11 had a misfire at idle as an inexpensive cam position sensor was failing.

A combo of the two if equipped plus a Winn system air leak in the fuel system COULD be contributing.

If the seller is aware of the rough idle and chooses not to fix it then the price should be adjusted accordingly

Re: WANTED: Foretravel with "Bus" front end

Reply #30 – September 09, 2016, 01:18:59 pm

Quote from: Caflashbob – September 09, 2016, 12:58:22 pm

Valves and injectors are supposed to be done every 100k miles

Our electronic m11 had a misfire at idle as an inexpensive cam position sensor was failing.

A combo of the two if equipped plus a Winn system air leak in the fuel system COULD be contributing.

If the seller is aware of the rough idle and chooses not to fix it then the price should be adjusted accordingly

Flash, I guess you forgot your days of selling coaches with C8.3, they don't have cam position sensor or the Winn System.

Re: WANTED: Foretravel with "Bus" front end

Reply #31 – September 09, 2016, 01:24:16 pm

Quote from: Bill Willett – September 09, 2016, 01:18:59 pm

Flash, I guess you forgot your days of selling coaches with C8.3, they don't have cam position sensor or the Winn System.

He did not disclose the year. 99 U270 does have an electronic 8.3 in it. Whether IT has a sensor similar to the ones in a m11 is to be determined. Or a Winn. I left Foretravel in 89 and returned for a bit in 93 then ran a country coach store in 95-96. Then got out of the biz.

Re: WANTED: Foretravel with "Bus" front end

Reply #32 – September 09, 2016, 03:38:53 pm

Quote from: Caflashbob – September 09, 2016, 01:24:16 pm

He did not disclose the year. 99 U270 does have an electronic 8.3 in it. Whether IT has a sensor similar to the ones in a m11 is to be determined. Or a Winn. I left Foretravel in 89 and returned for a bit in 93 then ran a country coach store in 95-96. Then got out of the biz.

99 u270 does not have single pane windows.

Re: WANTED: Foretravel with "Bus" front end

Reply #33 – September 09, 2016, 03:53:38 pm

Tim,let us know what year it is so we can stop speculating on the problems.As far as I know dual pane started late 96,on the
270 it was a option.I thought the same when I got mine but I do not see a need for dual pane,would probably work better in
cold climates.

Re: WANTED: Foretravel with "Bus" front end

Reply #34 – September 09, 2016, 04:14:28 pm

97 dual panes were standard in 270s.

Re: WANTED: Foretravel with "Bus" front end

Reply #35 – September 09, 2016, 05:22:46 pm

Beyond the insulation abilities to the reduction in noise is a great thing

Re: WANTED: Foretravel with "Bus" front end

Reply #36 – September 12, 2016, 04:53:07 pm

Your advice please. I put a 10% deposit on a 1996 U270 and am on-site inspecting it. Should I bail out or offer $5,000 less to fix this severe rust? It is behind a piece of sheet metal that looks like a bulkhead, close to the propane tank, stretches all the way across the bulkhead, and looks buckled. Could a piece of angle iron be welded in there? See photo at:

http://paop.org/BU.JPG

The bulkhead bolts look aligned and still fastened perpendicular to the bulkhead:
See photo at:

http://paop.org/RU.JPG

Questions:
What structural support does this metal plate serve? Is it really part of the bulkhead?
There is a propane tank support right next this line of rust. Does it support some of that load?

Other than this, I don't see any other rust through, without removing the belly fairings.

It also needs a new set of airbags. There is de-lamination of the rubber on one airbag and cracking on the others.

Inside the coach looks dry. No soft spots anywhere in the coach, walls, ceiling or roof using the "stomp test".

A 40 year diesel mechanic is coming tomorrow to inspect the engine. If the engine checks out OK, should I make an offer, minus $5,000 to handle this rust? That would bring the price down to $20,000.

Re: WANTED: Foretravel with "Bus" front end

Reply #37 – September 12, 2016, 05:02:51 pm

Had the same rust spot on my coach,think it gets there from driving in rain and front wheel throws water right there.Fixed mine
with some por-15 paint and elbow grease.Take a water hose and spray that area to pinpoint where the water gets in and then
fix that part,to me would not be a deal breaker.

Re: WANTED: Foretravel with "Bus" front end

Reply #38 – September 12, 2016, 05:10:40 pm

Tim,

The picture of the bulkhead area (the 1/4" thick angle) will never be a problem-- that is not the area of the bulkhead that fails.

The part that fails is immediately toward the center of the coach from the angle beam. The bolts (self tapping Rolock bolts) in your picture screw into the two thin walls of the 1.5" box beam immediately toward center of coach from the angle.

Look at the fiberglass under the 1.5" box beam. It should not be significantly raised from the rest of the floor around it. If it is, that is a sign of rust jacking, and indicates that the beam has degraded. Did you torque the Rolock bolts? How many were broken. They will generally either torque up or pull out with little torque. Most break 4-5 threads in, where the bolt meets the first wall of the box beam.

Again, not suggesting there is a problem, but the picture above would NOT expose a problem were there one.

If you want to visit on the phone about this, PM me.

Re: WANTED: Foretravel with "Bus" front end

Reply #39 – September 12, 2016, 05:16:47 pm

Quote from: wolfe10 – September 12, 2016, 05:10:40 pm

Did you torque the Rolock bolts? How many were broken. They will generally either torque up or pull out with little torque. Most break 4-5 threads in, where the bolt meets the first wall of the box beam.

Should one torque the Rolock bolts in a coach, be absolutely sure you understand the torque spec (it is not a significant amount) and be sure the owner understands what you are about to do.

More than one repair facility has expressed concern that coaches are being unnecessarily damaged by improper inspection. Given they make money on the repair, they do not have a vested interest in having these coaches NOT inspected, but instead are frustrated by the frequent need to drill out and replace bolts that are needlessly being broken due to incorrect procedures.

Re: WANTED: Foretravel with "Bus" front end

Reply #40 – September 12, 2016, 05:24:34 pm

A little more information on Michelle's post.

The Rolock is a grade 8 bolt (i.e. STRONG).

Per the engineers at Rolock, they recommended torquing to 250 INCH, repeat INCH pounds. That is just slightly over 20 ft-lbs. There point was that if there was less torque than this, the bolt was not really serving any function.

And, from experience, if the bolt is broken, it will not allow you to get close to even that torque figure.

If an owner is concerned that you are "breaking his bolts", have him look at the end of the bolt where it is broken. It will be badly rusted (been broken for a long time). At least a guy would have to be pretty irrational to think you not only broke the bolt, but also rusted the end!

Re: WANTED: Foretravel with "Bus" front end

Reply #41 – September 12, 2016, 07:14:21 pm

Late to the party Tim, but please take up Brett on his generous offer.

I planned my coach purchase arounds Brett's schedule so he could inspect my coach. If this coach is in Texas you would be wise to have him do an inspection.

These are very reliable, well built coaches but they are complicated. In my opinion, without an inspection you are rolling the dice.

Good luck and I hope it works out!

Re: WANTED: Foretravel with "Bus" front end

Reply #42 – September 12, 2016, 08:25:45 pm

By the way, it's a 1996 U270.

Re: WANTED: Foretravel with "Bus" front end

Reply #43 – September 12, 2016, 09:25:21 pm

The first picture of the rust next to the propane tank is hard to place in context. Do you have a wider angle shot of the area? Our 99' U270 doesn't have that sheet metal next to the propane tank. On ours, the fuel tank is the forward most thing in the basement area with the propane tank next in line towards the rear, with a partition between them. The partition is fiberglass covered metal framed wall that runs all the way to the other side of the coach. If that sheet metal in the picture is the backside of the other picture, I would be very concerned. It is a structural element kind of like the thin plywood backing of a bookcase, it adds to the rigidity of the basement. There is sheet metal bulkhead on both ends of the basement, and it is spot welded to the angle iron all the way around the perimeter of the bulkhead as well as two sets of two vertical angle iron braces near the middle. It 16 gauge or better steel and does add strength as well as a firewall, IMHO.
Don

Quote from: Tim – September 12, 2016, 04:53:07 pm

Your advice please. I put a 10% deposit on a 1996 U270 and am on-site inspecting it. Should I bail out or offer $5,000 less to fix this severe rust? It is behind a piece of sheet metal that looks like a bulkhead, close to the propane tank, stretches all the way across the bulkhead, and looks buckled. Could a piece of angle iron be welded in there? See photo at:

http://paop.org/BU.JPG

The bulkhead bolts look aligned and still fastened perpendicular to the bulkhead:
See photo at:

http://paop.org/RU.JPG

Questions:
What structural support does this metal plate serve? Is it really part of the bulkhead?
There is a propane tank support right next this line of rust. Does it support some of that load?

Other than this, I don't see any other rust through, without removing the belly fairings.

It also needs a new set of airbags. There is de-lamination of the rubber on one airbag and cracking on the others.

Inside the coach looks dry. No soft spots anywhere in the coach, walls, ceiling or roof using the "stomp test".

A 40 year diesel mechanic is coming tomorrow to inspect the engine. If the engine checks out OK, should I make an offer, minus $5,000 to handle this rust? That would bring the price down to $20,000.

Re: WANTED: Foretravel with "Bus" front end

Reply #44 – September 12, 2016, 09:54:34 pm

The first expenditure I made on our 97 270 was an inspection by Brett. I worked our travel around his schedule. We spent almost four hours going through it. In the end I knew I would need, bags, shocks, possible transmission seals, fuel lines, transynd, red coolant etc etc. But the bones were good, I knew what was going to need attention and a guesstimate of what I would be spending. It is money well spent. Those things he green lighted have proven to be solid. BTW my final cost was 28,000 with a new fridge, tires, and batterys.

Good luck!

Re: WANTED: Foretravel with "Bus" front end

Reply #45 – September 12, 2016, 11:45:13 pm

Quote from: Tim – September 12, 2016, 04:53:07 pm

Your advice please. I put a 10% deposit on a 1996 U270 and am on-site inspecting it. Should I bail out or offer $5,000 less to fix this severe rust? It is behind a piece of sheet metal that looks like a bulkhead, close to the propane tank, stretches all the way across the bulkhead, and looks buckled. Could a piece of angle iron be welded in there? See photo at:

http://paop.org/BU.JPG

...........................................................................

Tim,
The rust that you are seeing in the inner forward corner of the propane (and diesel fuel tank) compartment is likely a different problem than a compromised front bulkhead joint, at least it was on our 1998 U270 coach.
First, the forward bulkhead of the propane (and on the driver's side, battery)/Fuel compartments is a latticework sandwich of 1.5" X 1.5" X 0.125" box channel framework, covered by inner and outer sheets of metal.

In order to promote air flow into the propane and battery compartments, there is an aluminum or plastic covered inlet vent through the outer sheet metal, up high on those compartments. The vent covers look just like the freshwater tank overflow setup on the rear bulkhead, which is in front of the curbside duals (see overflow photos links below). The propane and battery compartment inlet vents are up behind the front tires, almost directly behind the forward airbags. Air is forced from the relatively higher pressure of the wheel-well into the propane compartment because there is an uncovered round hole (somewhat offset toward the coach centerline from the outer hole) through the inner sheet metal, high up on the inner sheet metal of the bulkhead.

The rust comes from water and mist thrown up by the front tire, which enters the outer sheet metal vent hole, which then drains down into the space between the inner and outer sheets of metal "skin". The water collected is trapped there causing the rusting of the sheet metal and the box channel latticework. Year round, on wet days, roadways that ever see snow add their own mix of sodium chloride and calcium chloride de-icing products (and residuals) to the water that ends up trapped between the inner and out sheets of metal. Hence the rust damage to the propane compartment forward bulkhead (that has rusted from the inside out).

I had Extreme, MOT and FOT all look at my rusted areas (both sides - propane and battery compartments) to see if I needed to be (more) concerned.
Consensus:

Not a structural concern.

Keep the area dormant with Corrosion X. Reapply at least annually. Once you use Corrosion-X on the area, it cannot be painted in the future.

Close off the wheel-well "water induction ports" with closed cell foam, or other, to prevent further water/corrosion inducing product intrusion.

It wouldn't hurt to open up large inspection holes in the sheet metal, in both the propane and battery compartments, for future routine inspection and Corrosion-X treatment purposes. These can be made neat and closed off with removable inspection ports. That also cleans up the unsightliness of the rusted area.

Short of removing the entire forward bulkhead, there is no easy way to rebuild or strengthen the rusted area. And, not being structural is not a necessary repair.

[/list]

So, if you have the vents on the 1996 U270, I believe that's probably the source of the water (and if a northern coach) the calcium corrosion products that are causing the rust. If the bulkhead's structural joints and Rolocks are intact, there is not a structural concern.

I agree with Brett that properly torque testing the bulkhead Rolocks (with the owner's knowledge and approval) is the only way to know for certain that the front and rear bulkheads are not compromised. A reasonable owner would want to know the true condition of the bulkhead joint as much as you want to know.

http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15737.0;attach=10466;image

http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=15737.0;attach=10468;image

Re: WANTED: Foretravel with "Bus" front end

Reply #46 – September 13, 2016, 01:04:10 am

Interesting... The forward bulkhead on our 99' is not a sandwich, but a single sheet of steel welded to structural angle iron on the outside (wheel well side), and smooth skin on the inside. I am quite sure on this point as I was up close and personal with it. It is a mirror image of the rear bulkhead, except that the rear has 1" (or maybe ¾") rigid styrofoam insulation with a fiberglass skin laminated to it. There was no rust on either side of the front bulkhead sheet metal on our coach. Fascinating the differences in these coaches year to year, and even build number to build number in some cases.
Don

Quote from: Neal Pillsbury – September 12, 2016, 11:45:13 pm

Tim,
The rust that you are seeing in the inner forward corner of the propane (and diesel fuel tank) compartment is likely a different problem than a compromised front bulkhead joint, at least it was on our 1998 U270 coach.
First, the forward bulkhead of the propane (and on the driver's side, battery)/Fuel compartments is a latticework sandwich of 1.5" X 1.5" X 0.125" box channel framework, covered by inner and outer sheets of metal.

Re: WANTED: Foretravel with "Bus" front end

Reply #47 – September 13, 2016, 08:00:15 am

Thank you so so so much for the detailed analysis. Just wondering how to factor this into my offer, or just walk away. The idea was to purchase a turnkey rig, not a "project." Of course, all older motorhomes are "projects" in my mind, some more than others.

I will meet with the consignment dealer, owner and diesel mechanic today and will let you know how it goes. Hope I can get access to a torque wrench. The torque on a Rolock bolt is approximately the same as a spark plug: 21 foot pounds. I have been torquing spark plugs for the last 50 years and could probably approximate the torque with a simple socket ranch and judgement.

I have used Corrosion X and ACF 50 in my airplanes and it is amazing stuff. Definitely will use it to halt the progression of the rust.

Re: WANTED: Foretravel with "Bus" front end

Reply #48 – September 13, 2016, 08:46:03 am

Quote from: Tim – September 13, 2016, 08:00:15 am

Thank you so so so much for the detailed analysis. Just wondering how to factor this into my offer, or just walk away. The idea was to purchase a turnkey rig, not a "project." Of course, all older motorhomes are "projects" in my mind, some more than others.

I haven't seen the motorhome, and so I can offer only general advice. When I purchase a vehicle I really prefer to deal (or at least discuss it) with the previous owner. I find it very beneficial to evaluate the owner as well as the vehicle.

This particular motorhome appears to have enough rust that I would be concerned--not just about the rust one can readily see, but about what rust there might be in other places. With the various other issues, I believe I personally would walk away.

Re: WANTED: Foretravel with "Bus" front end

Reply #49 – September 13, 2016, 08:45:36 pm

I offered a very low price because the 1996 U270 has lots of rust jacking. There was about 1/2 inch separation of the basement structure from the coach frame. Every roll lock bolt would have broken off if torqued. So, I guess the dealer will need to wait for an unsuspecting or enthusiastic buyer to pay full price. The rig needed:

- Replace engine idler pulley
- New serpentine belts
- New tires
- New airbags
- New batteries
- Refrigerator repair
- Fix propane gas leak
- Fix severe rust-through in lower corner risers and lower horizontal sheet metal junction in fuel and fresh water bays
- Fix severe bulkhead rust / possible structural failure

Well, the search continues.

Anyone know Dave Head? He has one for sale and I am in the same town as him until tomorrow morning. It sure would be nice if I could stop by and see his rig.

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